Casey Visited by Doctor

[TotallyObsessed]

I understand what you are saying. My question would then be how does the SA counter the defense doctor if the state does not have ICA examined as well by an independent doctor. I am not speaking of the initial exam.

IIRC, we discussed this early on but I don't remember what thread ..... thanks.

It would have to be done throuh the legal confines of discovery. The SA would have to depose the Doctor before trial to find out where he stands. They would have to subpoena medical records. I am not sure, however, how psychological records are handled. Are they turned over as well during discovery?? Anyone?

 

[TotallyObsessed]

Going on poor memory here...
Didn't Baez say since day one that when Casey gets her day in court we will all understand. Something to that effect? :waitasec:

Just a theory here...the point is, even if there was abuse in the home that did not give Casey the right to kill Caylee if she is the real killer which IMO she is. Let's just say hypothetically that Casey killed Caylee to spare her from the same abuse she endured or Caylee was enduring at the time. Why did she go out parting and shack up with Tony as if nothing happen? In the pictures of her out on the town I don't see them any different than the pictures of her out on the town before Caylee's death, in other words she did not seem distraught, incoherent, or mentally unstable. Her friends did not notice any difference in her either, some mentioned she started going out more and smoking pot...but remember, they also said that Casey was a follower and always wanted to fit in and if she was around people that smoked/partied all the time, and she didn't have Caylee to worry about anymore so she was more like celebrating her freedom and Caylee's death IMO.


Snipped your excellent post for brevity.....

I couldn't agree more. Soooo, how many women have been molested, abused, raped that then turn right around and KILL their child because they don't want it to happen to them???? hmmmm? This is not a defense....it is a mitigation factor ONLY. If we believed JB in saying that "we will understand" then each and every conniving murderer from here forward would have a "get out of jail" card by saying, SAYING mind you, not PROVING the actual fact (because it is KC's word against GA and LA) that they were abused, raped, etc. and so that should excuse a murder.....NOT

 

[marspiter]

I mentioned this on another thread but will weave it into discussion here. After reading excerpts from the book Courting the Media by Marti Mackenzie..........I am starting to believe that MUCH of the defense energy is being spent "floating" hints of incest and emotional abuse in an effort to get the DP off the table.

Did the defense ever believe that the jail visitor log would be sealed????? Of course not, BUT they wanted to create interest in it. By having a doctor with a specialization in trauma, disassociative disorders, and incest et al visit her....they are laying groundwork for "sympathy and mitigation" before the trial.

Why would they do that NOW??????? Becasue they want the DP off the table BEFORE jury selection. A death qualified jury is a reason for concern as they are perceived as being more likely to find guilt.

Regardless of the legitimacy of the incest and abuse allegations..............the defense NEEDS the DP off the table . If they appear to be laying a strong foundation for "throw everyone under the bus and let's get all the "experts" in here........perhaps they are trying to get the SA to consider if it is "worth it" to push for the DP when they know just how far the defense will take it.

JB has cried and whined about KC's lack of privacy and made a "theatrical production" of attempting to give her more.....WHY THEN did he never fight the release of the jail letters? Ummmmmm perhaps because those letters were the catalyst for renewed speculation and interest in the abuse angle and would stimulate interest in KC's visitor logs.

Mark my words.......there is a method here.

That does seem very plausible as a strategy for this defense. However I think the defense is just tilting windmills.

I seriously doubt they are going to win in getting the DP taking off the table. In fact I think this strategy is going to be very counter productive for the defense. It also shows that the defense is gearing up for the sentencing phase...which screams yeah our client is guilty.....just don't give her the needle.

Next thing you know the defense will start talking about ICA's dimished capacity and twinkies.

 

[italianangel2411]

I don't think Casey was ever abused maybe verbally by Cindy but I think the defense and Casey will put anyone under the bus. If she felt that Caylee should not be in that home, killing her should not of ever crossed her mind..how about moving out like a big girl and get a job and her own place and giving Caylee up for adoption or going to a safe haven for the both of them

 

[TotallyObsessed]

I don't think Casey was ever abused maybe verbally by Cindy but I think the defense and Casey will put anyone under the bus. If she felt that Caylee should not be in that home, killing her should not of ever crossed her mind..how about moving out like a big girl and get a job and her own place and giving Caylee up for adoption or going to a safe haven for the both of them

I totally agree with whoever upthread described this whole case as "the perfect storm". If ever there was a tragedy in the making.....this family was it.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Just tossing this out here.


Hare PCL-R (Psychopathy Checklist Revised)

A. Selfish, callous and remorseless use of others:
1. Glibness/superficial charm (smooth-talking, engaging and slick)
2. Grandiose sense of self-worth (greatly inflated idea of one's abilities and self-esteem, arrogance and a sense of superiority)
3. Pathological lying
4. Conning/manipulative (uses deceit to cheat others for personal gain)
5. Lack of remorse or guilt (no feelings or concern for losses, pain and suffering of others)
6. Emotional poverty (limited range or depth of feelings)
7. Callous/lack of empathy (a lack of feelings toward others; cold, contemptuous and inconsiderate)
8. Failure to accept responsibility for own actions

B. Chronically unstable, antisocial and socially deviant lifestyle:
1. Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom (an excessive need for new, exciting stimulation and risk-taking)
2. Parasitic lifestyle (exploitative financial dependence on others)
3. Poor behavioral control (frequent verbal abuse and inappropriate expressions of anger)
4. Promiscuity (numerous brief, superficial sexual affairs)
5. Lack of realistic, long-term goals
6. Impulsivity
7. Irresponsibility (repeated failure to fulfill or honor commitments and obligations)
8. Juvenile delinquency (criminal behavioral problems between the ages of 13-18)
9. Early behavior problems (before age 13)
10. Revocation of conditional release (violating parole or other conditional release)
11. Many short-term marital relationships (lack of commitment to a long-term relationship)
12. Criminal versatility (diversity of criminal offenses, whether or not the individual has been arrested or convicted)

The American Psychiatric Association however would classify it as ASPD based on the DSM. As the DSM does not differentiate sociopaths, psychopathy, and ASPD.

I realize I must sound like a broken record here but

http://www.borderlinepersonalitytoday.com/main/dsmiv.htm

the section on Differential Diagnosis is pretty informative imo

 

[OneLostGrl]

I don't think Casey was ever abused maybe verbally by Cindy but I think the defense and Casey will put anyone under the bus. If she felt that Caylee should not be in that home, killing her should not of ever crossed her mind..how about moving out like a big girl and get a job and her own place and giving Caylee up for adoption or going to a safe haven for the both of them

Cuz she couldn't let her mom see what/who she really was/is. Hiding who she was was more important to her than her child was. imo

 

[OneLostGrl]

Seagull, not only is it completely perplexing that KC would turn into a vicious killer (with no previous violence in her background)--but also that she would not run away when "collected" by her Mother, Cindy. Why didn't she run away? She had plenty of time (31 days) to make a break for it. Instead, like you have pointed out, she cleaned Tony's apartment and worked on becoming his full time girlfriend. A (for lack of a better word) regular person (capable of killing their own daughter) would have been thinking.."oh dear, one day I'll have to produce Caylee, and I can't--I had better run away!" KC didn't face the situation--like she didn't face not graduating, like she didn't face becoming pregnant, like she didn't face not having a job, like she didn't face not going to Valencia, like she didn't face not living on her own (like her more self reliant friends)...she didn't face things. WHY? It is clear that if Caylee drowned ("by mistake") in the pool that KC's traditional way of handling things would be to ignore it and carry on. That is her MO. WHY is it her MO? Answer----quite possibly because of disassociation, a direct result of familial sexual abuse/molestation.

Not to mention that (apparently) for her whole life she has been encouraged to ignore reality and change it into something better, something easier to handle or prettier to look at. OR blame it on someone else. Ita with you about Casey and disassociation though I don't think it's because she was abused sexually (though I don't know this as fact.. I could be dead wrong.. she very well could have been) I think it has more to do with the apple and the tree but that's just me.

ETA- I realize disassociation is not an excuse or a reason but it sure explains why she chose to "ignore" that her child was missing. Much like she did when she ignored the pregnancy. I think a lot of people get confused as to what disassociation actually is (many hear the word and think DID) but there are other less severe forms of disassociation and her history shows it's how she deals with things, it's how she has been encouraged (and sadly still is) to handle things.

 

[OneLostGrl]

I mentioned this on another thread but will weave it into discussion here. After reading excerpts from the book Courting the Media by Marti Mackenzie..........I am starting to believe that MUCH of the defense energy is being spent "floating" hints of incest and emotional abuse in an effort to get the DP off the table.

Did the defense ever believe that the jail visitor log would be sealed????? Of course not, BUT they wanted to create interest in it. By having a doctor with a specialization in trauma, disassociative disorders, and incest et al visit her....they are laying groundwork for "sympathy and mitigation" before the trial.

Why would they do that NOW??????? Becasue they want the DP off the table BEFORE jury selection. A death qualified jury is a reason for concern as they are perceived as being more likely to find guilt.

Regardless of the legitimacy of the incest and abuse allegations..............the defense NEEDS the DP off the table . If they appear to be laying a strong foundation for "throw everyone under the bus and let's get all the "experts" in here........perhaps they are trying to get the SA to consider if it is "worth it" to push for the DP when they know just how far the defense will take it.

JB has cried and whined about KC's lack of privacy and made a "theatrical production" of attempting to give her more.....WHY THEN did he never fight the release of the jail letters? Ummmmmm perhaps because those letters were the catalyst for renewed speculation and interest in the abuse angle and would stimulate interest in KC's visitor logs.

Mark my words.......there is a method here.

ITA- too bad for them it just won't work.

 

[Horace Finklestein]

So is everyone thinking the GA abuse claim is only for mitigation? I don't see how GA molesting Casey would have anything to do with Zani kidnapping Caylee or Kronk killing her or any of the other nonsense they've put out there.

 

[marspiter]

I realize I must sound like a broken record here but

http://www.borderlinepersonalitytoday.com/main/dsmiv.htm

the section on Differential Diagnosis is pretty informative imo

The only problem with borderline personality disorder is that it does not fully address all of ICA's behavior such as her criminality, pathological lying, lack of empathy, grandiose self worth, and the like (my laymans opinion).

Quoted from the link you gave specifically in the differential diagnosis section.

"Although Antisocial Personality Disorder and Borderline Personality Disorder are both characterized by manipulative behavior, individuals with Antisocial Personality Disorder are manipulative to gain profit, power, or some other material gratification, whereas the goal in Borderline Personality Disorder is directed more toward gaining the concern of caretakers."

I believe ICA was more focused on manipulating others for her own gain and gratification then to achieve concern from CA GA, or her list of boyfriend fodder.

This is not to say that BPD couldn't co-occur, but BPD in my opinion does not fully encompass all of ICA's behaviors, and I'm not convinced ICA matches 5 required criteria for BPD. Like self mutilation and recurrent suicidal behavior as one example.

 

[Murdock]

So is everyone thinking the GA abuse claim is only for mitigation? I don't see how GA molesting Casey would have anything to do with Zani kidnapping Caylee or Kronk killing her or any of the other nonsense they've put out there.

Mostly for mitigation, but I think they could also try to use it to explain KC's inappropriate response to her daughter's kidnapping, (or whatever they are going to go with here). Diane Downs' defense used something similiar. They said that she couldn't cry because she was abused as a child & her father didn't allow crying. Her jury didn't buy it.

They could even go so far as to say KC didn't call 911 or cooperate with police because GA was ex-LE so KC learned to not trust LE. That would really be a stretch, though.

 

[The World According]

The Menendez brothers, Diane Downs and thousands upon thousands of murderers who have been found to be guilty by a jury, claimed to have been abused. Nevertheless, where are they now?

Remain calm. Casey has been visited by mitigation specialists for some time now, for hours on end. If you sit through the entire magic show, eventually the magician does wind up with an empty hat.

This was expected. They can try whatever they like, it doesn't mean they will fool the good hard working taxpayers of the jury. Not at all.

 

[marspiter]

The Menendez brothers, Diane Downs and thousands upon thousands of murderers who have been found to be guilty by a jury, claimed to have been abused. Nevertheless, where are they now?

Remain calm. Casey has been visited by mitigation specialists for some time now, for hours on end. If you sit through the entire magic show, eventually the magician does wind up with an empty hat.

This was expected. They can try whatever they like, it doesn't mean they will fool the good hard working taxpayers of the jury. Not at all.

Completely agree. That and I would like to add that it will be interesting to see when, and, or, if this Dr. is added to the defenses witness list.

 

[Purple Iris]

Completely agree. That and I would like to add that it will be interesting to see when, and, or, if this Dr. is added to the defenses witness list.

I totally agree.
We may be just jumping at anything that we are given, since this has been dragging on for sooo long.

Just a thought, if she was given that standard psych test, something called "The Minnesota-something or other"; that test has been known to take some people up to 4 hours to complete.
It may be nothing more than just her doing paperwork and testings.

The doctor drove the distance to give her the tests, waited for her to complete it or them, and left with them to evaluate them on his time.
I think that we may be over-reacting, which, is what Baez always wants us to do ~ If that is what he was wanting this time around, mission accomplished so far.

Guess one day we'll see how this pans out.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

(6) MITIGATING CIRCUMSTANCES. Mitigating circumstances shall be the following:

(a) The defendant has no significant history of prior criminal activity. Well, sorry Case, but there's that awkward check fraud conviction...

(b) The capital felony was committed while the defendant was under the influence of extreme mental or emotional disturbance. I think the essential qualifiers here are 'extreme' and 'while' so during the murder. Extreme mental or emotional disturbance would have to be proven by the defence, so they'd be looking for signs of mental disturbance prior to the murder, of which there is little evidence, although the pregnancy denial may play a role here. Dissociation afterwards not relevant here, even if it did occur and could explain her apparent lack of concern about murdering her baby, and being caught for it...it happened afterwards. Also I would want clarification on what is meant by 'extreme' how is that measured?

(c) The victim was a participant in the defendant's conduct or consented to the act. Nope

(d) The defendant was an accomplice in the capital felony committed by another person and his participation was relatively minor. Nope

(e) The defendant acted under extreme duress or under the substantial domination of another person. Nope, Casey acted under her own free will, and committed the crime on her own.

(f) The capacity of the defendant to appreciate the criminality of his conduct or to conform his conduct to the requirements of law was substantially impaired. She knew she had committed an illegal act, she knew well enough to lie to her mother, and to lie to LE when she was questioned.

(g) The age of the defendant at the time of the crime. Hmmm young yes, early 20's, perhaps a sympathetic jury may mitigate on these grounds, I tend to think it's her best bet, but rather subjective and would require sympathy from the jury which she may negate by throwing her friends, family etc under the bus during her defence.

I think that if this does get to mitigation that it will interesting viewing...I for one will enjoy watching the experts battle it out etc, but I am not seeing any great mitigators here. There is enough room for interpretation here to allow for a judgement either way. But I think they've got 'Buckley's'.

 

[Kat]

Question please?

Didn't the state order a psychiatric evaluation on her when she was arrested?

Would the defense be doing their own eval as SOP? Just curious I don't know how this works.

 

[Purple Iris]

Question please?

Didn't the state order a psychiatric evaluation on her when she was arrested?

Would the defense be doing their own eval as SOP? Just curious I don't know how this works.

I don't see why they coudn't, or wouldn't take that opportunity now that the state is footing the bills.

If he doesn't provide anything usefull, or, something that may fall into their party-line, then, they just don't call on him I guess?

 

[logicalgirl]

Rather than quote your mitigating factors Mrs. G. Norris - I'm just going to applaud and agree.

Except for the age one - based on some notes I've got, the age thing seems to be referring to those who are under the "age of majority" or are still considered juveniles - such as 17 or 18 years of age. I don't think this one will help ICA although some may feel she is young to be put to death. Rehabilitation doesn't seem a factor though IMO.

And if the "mental capabilities" didn't help Andrea Yates, who was barely in "this world", I don't think it will help ICA who schemed and planned and hid this murder. And continues to attempt to deny and avoid. This would be a dissociative state lasting over two years....um......no.

 

[whiteangora]

Question please?

Didn't the state order a psychiatric evaluation on her when she was arrested?

Would the defense be doing their own eval as SOP? Just curious I don't know how this works.

I believe that they did, I mentioned it in my post #26.
ETA : Here is a link for the bond hearing when HHSS ordered the psych evaluation.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESjK7FSZV38[/ame]
He also stated., "her mental condition which I can't begin to describe"..........