Cheri Jo Bates...Zodiac Victim or not?

[gregjrichards]

I have always wondered why the Zodiac killer never identified himself especially at the end of his life. From his letters would he not feel proud of what he had done and want to take credit for it or would he have liked being known as his moniker and not as a real individual?

I was hoping for a second series of finding the Zodiac but it doesn’t seem to be happening.

 

[Dragonfyree]

I have always wondered why the Zodiac killer never identified himself

I think a couple of reasons might be:

1. Possibility is, of course, he might not have died yet, and will leave something behind.

2. He died suddenly before he could make any plans, and whatever evidence he had was thrown out by family cleaning out his house. Most likely evidence would be the remnants of Paul Stine's shirt, but who'd recognize something like that. I doubt he'd keep the costume he wore at the Shephard killing.

3. He thinks he'll be remembered forever, like Jack The Ripper, if he's never caught, and if he's caught, he'll turn out to be such a bland person (think Son of Sam) that people will forget him. David Berkowitz is hardly mentioned any more, and people forget how much he terrorized New York.

4. Actually got a family he cares about and doesn't want them to ever find out.

Hard to believe he'd have a happy family, but a lot of them do.

 

[Richard]

It could be a combination of some - or all - of the above reasons.

Also, the possibility exists that he was incarcerated in a prison or mental facility for other reasons, and did not want to risk a longer sentence/stay or even the death penalty.

By staying "unknown" he could continue to live on in public legend and fears.

 

[Shooketh]

That's what I mean in one of my earlier posts that some people want a serial killer to be responsible for any similar killing that ever happens.

If we're to believe the description of witnesses in the Paul Stine case the killer was in his thirties. The Texarkana murders happened 20 years before the Zodiac. Did the killer start really young and then stop for 20 years or are there dozens of victims we don't know about?

There are several books on the Texarkana murders. "The Phantom Killer - by James Presley and The Texas Moonlight Murders - by Michael Newton. They both show that the police at the time believed they had the killer - Youell Swinney and his wife. She confessed to the police and was even able to give a description to the police about the crime scene. There used to be laws, which I don't know if they are still in effect where one spouse could not testify against their spouse, no matter what the circumstances and they didn't have any other evidence. They also weren't sure that the last murder at the Stark home was the same killer.

The girls' name was Virginia Carpenter she took a train from Texarkana to Denton Texas which is a little over 200 miles. The prime suspect was the cab driver who had driven her from the train station to the college twice that night and gave the story that she got into a car with two other men at the college and went off with them.

I really believe DNA is going to one day solve these crimes and it will probably be someone no one has ever mentioned.

I absolutely agree that DNA one day will solve these and I have a feeling it will be someone we have never even heard of. In the Virginia Carpenter case I thought the cab driver had been cleared but I could have been mistaken. I do not think it is linked in any way to the moonlight murders. I think that started with the fact she personally knew like three of the victims. I am not 100% convinced the Starks murder was the same killer. I just thought it was odd considering the first three attacks they started so sudden and then ended so sudden. I live about two hours from Texarkana and crime of course has gone up in the area with time but even today something such as a serial killer is something that you cannot imagine happening here. Back in 1946 I would assume the idea would be unheard of. There was so much rumor and panic that ensued after those murders I think a lot of details have been muddied.

 

[Dragonfyree]

I thought the cab driver had been cleared

I had read that also, but I recently read something where it says that the wife of the cab driver told the police that she had lied and that he actually came home a lot later than she had previously said. I don't remember if he was already dead or they ran into the wife can't testify against her husband and without further evidence they couldn't arrest him.

His story about two guys waiting at the college for her is just ridiculous. It was 200 miles away from home, why didn't they offer to drive her to college if they going to go there. If it was a planned meeting, why were they there the second time she came back from the train station and not the earlier time when she originally arrived?

 

[Richard]

I don't think that the Zodiac killings include - or are related to, the case of Virginia Carpenter (1948). Here is a link to the Websleuths threads on Virginia:

TX - TX - Virginia Carpenter, 21, Denton, 1948

 

[mysuspect]

Although I'm doubtful about Cheri Jo being a Zodiac victim, one thing that moves me a little closer in that direction is that she was driving a rear engine car-a Volkswagen Beetle. At a time when I don't think even 5% of the cars on the road were rear engine, Bates, Ferrin/Mageau (Corvair) and Hartnell/Shepard (Volkswagen Karman Ghia) were all in rear engine cars. That would be three out of the first four attacks if Bates was a Zodiac victim.

It would be interesting to know what the actual percentage was at that time. By '69 such cars were pretty popular with young people.

 

[Dragonfyree]

It would be interesting to know what the actual percentage was at that time. By '69 such cars were pretty popular with young people.

I would agree. I'm probably a lot older than you and I know my older brother and almost all of his friends had volkswagon's in the late 60's. I hated riding in one, felt like I was on the ground and semi's terrified me.

I honestly believe it's her boyfriend. I think it was almost too up close and personal to be someone she didn't know.

Three of the zodiac victims were shot which is somewhat impersonal and the stabbing of Hartnell and Shepard, he tied them up before stabbing, Cheri fought hard for her life and some of the DNA, I believe was under her fingernails and they believe the watch found nearby was also the killer. He didn't disable any of their cars and why would he do that to Cheri's if he was just looking for a victim, they were on a campus and there must have been a lot of people walking around alone. Instead of waiting for her to get into the car and find out it was disabled, wouldn't he have just grabbed her outside the car?

They think she walked away willingly with her killer. When she got out she would have been more likely to go with her ex boyfriend instead of a total stranger. They didn't appear to have a bad relationship after she got engaged to her fiancee and I don't remember reading anywhere that she was afraid of him.

I suspect more of these high profile cases are being checked for DNA but they're not telling so as to not spook the killer if he's still alive.

 

[mysuspect]

I would agree. I'm probably a lot older than you and I know my older brother and almost all of his friends had volkswagon's in the late 60's. I hated riding in one, felt like I was on the ground and semi's terrified me.

I honestly believe it's her boyfriend. I think it was almost too up close and personal to be someone she didn't know.

Three of the zodiac victims were shot which is somewhat impersonal and the stabbing of Hartnell and Shepard, he tied them up before stabbing, Cheri fought hard for her life and some of the DNA, I believe was under her fingernails and they believe the watch found nearby was also the killer. He didn't disable any of their cars and why would he do that to Cheri's if he was just looking for a victim, they were on a campus and there must have been a lot of people walking around alone. Instead of waiting for her to get into the car and find out it was disabled, wouldn't he have just grabbed her outside the car?

They think she walked away willingly with her killer. When she got out she would have been more likely to go with her ex boyfriend instead of a total stranger. They didn't appear to have a bad relationship after she got engaged to her fiancee and I don't remember reading anywhere that she was afraid of him.

I suspect more of these high profile cases are being checked for DNA but they're not telling so as to not spook the killer if he's still alive.

My family's cars were VW buses. On a vacation our '65 had engine issues and we traded it in on a '69, which we kept for ten years. My first car was a 20+ year old Beetle. Even in the late 80s old bugs were still all over Southern CA. Corvairs? Not so much but I remember lots of kids having them in the mid 70s in the Midwest, where I was at the time.

 

[mysuspect]

And I vote yes, Bates was Zodiac's work.

 

[Dcwebster]

Im not entirely sure he killed Cheri Jo ....however he may very well have been the one writing letters to the police investigating the case.
But nothing concerning Zodiac would surprise me.

The police thought that Bates boyfriend was the Killer however they got a court order for his DNA and it absolutely excludes him as the Killer I do believe that Ross Sullivan killed Bates because his friends failed lie detector test about taking him back to the crime scene to find something he lost ie a watch however although he has reddish blonde hair as the Zodiac was described by the witnesses of the pole Stine murder he was much too fat and much too tall to be the zodiac as a matter of fact the only thing that does match is the hair what I'm saying is I believe Sullivan killed Bates but I do not believe Sullivan was the zodiac he is just too fat although he creeped everyone out he just does not match the description of the zodiac

 

[TangledPuppet]

I have always wondered why the Zodiac killer never identified himself especially at the end of his life. From his letters would he not feel proud of what he had done and want to take credit for it or would he have liked being known as his moniker and not as a real individual?

I was hoping for a second series of finding the Zodiac but it doesn’t seem to be happening.

Someone could have found the information and decided not to tell anyone. Strange thing to do but I suppose there's hundreds of scenarios. Imo it could be plausible

 

[Manwel]

I would agree. I'm probably a lot older than you and I know my older brother and almost all of his friends had volkswagon's in the late 60's. I hated riding in one, felt like I was on the ground and semi's terrified me.

I honestly believe it's her boyfriend. I think it was almost too up close and personal to be someone she didn't know.

Three of the zodiac victims were shot which is somewhat impersonal and the stabbing of Hartnell and Shepard, he tied them up before stabbing, Cheri fought hard for her life and some of the DNA, I believe was under her fingernails and they believe the watch found nearby was also the killer. He didn't disable any of their cars and why would he do that to Cheri's if he was just looking for a victim, they were on a campus and there must have been a lot of people walking around alone. Instead of waiting for her to get into the car and find out it was disabled, wouldn't he have just grabbed her outside the car?

They think she walked away willingly with her killer. When she got out she would have been more likely to go with her ex boyfriend instead of a total stranger. They didn't appear to have a bad relationship after she got engaged to her fiancee and I don't remember reading anywhere that she was afraid of him.

I suspect more of these high profile cases are being checked for DNA but they're not telling so as to not spook the killer if he's still alive.

I learned tonight of a DNA and forensic genealogy solve of a murder victim whose identity was unknown. She was the "Precious Jane Doe" of Everett, WA (Snohomish). There was a UC-Santa Cruz paleogeneticist who worked on the case and was able to extract a complete DNA profile for CODIS from the victim's hair kept in evidence box (apparently because her bones were too old and had been "boiled" for other testing?). She was a case from 1977. Anyway, this professor's DNA profile was then worked on by Barbara Rae-Venter, the genealogy researcher who nabbed GSK, and she was the one who identified the victim.

So. Heh. I don't know if I'm just ballsy or absolutely impertinent but I just straight-up emailed the UC-Santa Cruz professor and was like, "Hey, I read about you in the news. I hope you're working on Cheri Jo Bates. I know you probably can't say anything about that but I'd just like to know she might be solved soon." And I got a "No comment" within an hour.

Hey, I'll take it!

"I can't talk about that" is way better than "No, who is she?" or silence. Fingers crossed tightly for this professor and Barbara Rae-Venter!

 

[Doctor_Fauci]

Cheri was a definite, confirmed Zodiac victim. Here is the entire story, with sources:

 

[FOXINBOX]

Do y'all realise, Cheri is not the only Bates to be murdered within the Zodiac time frame. Delores Bates [20] Cabazon, CA [37 miles from Riverside as Google flies] was murdered by gunshot July 1967. Paul Ruskauff was convicted of her involuntary manslaughter...

 

[Richard]

Cheri Josephine Bates
BIRTH 4 Feb 1948
Omaha, Douglas County, Nebraska, USA
DEATH 30 Oct 1966 (aged 18)
Riverside, Riverside County, California, USA
BURIAL Cremated, Ashes scattered Show Map
PLOT ashes scatterd at sea

LINK:

Cheri Josephine Bates (1948-1966) - Find a Grave...

 

[imstilla.grandma]

 

[morf13]

Calling all Websleuths: An in depth analysis & discussion tonight live at 9PM Eastern RE; Cheri Jo Bates case

Join the Citizen Detective team tonight live at 9Pm Eastern as we explore the brutal October 30, 1966 murder of Cheri Jo Bates in Riverside, CA. Was her murder connected to the infamous Zodiac Killer?

We'd love to hear your theories, ideas, and questions as we delve into the case live.

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[Richard]

Cheri Josephine Bates, age 16
Murdered 30 October 1966 in Riverside, CA

 

[CharlesRedding]

Apparently Gary Poste was in Riverside at a Military base for a hospital check up at the same time 15 minutes away the day of the murder. He has been a strong suspect named in 2021. His DNA is on file after his 2016 arrest for domestic abuse. There was a hair found at the Bates scene. Wish Riverside PD would get some courage and finally compare the two profiles and put ego aside that they were wrong and Zodiac did kill her also.