Clifford Lane Lawless

[Nora Charles]

As I was reading your response the same question popped up in my mind!

SPECULATION ALERT: An unplanned pregnancy would CERTAINLY make a situation for a jailhouse-type conversion, a shotgun wedding, and the FIL possibly "helping along" the ordination and pastor position! Anyone have the birth date for their firstborn?

As far as the "saved" date differing from the "baptism" date, the Baptists I have known do make a distinction between the two, unlike Catholics and some other denominations. Because they don't do infant baptism (at least the Baptists I know) they believe it is a demonstration of being born again - thus it couldn't happen until they were old enough to make a decision that they believe in Jesus as their Savior. Then joining the church is another separate event, because they have to be baptized before they become members.

Any Baptist out there, please correct me.


Edit: great link by passionflower in "Church" thread: http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3580261&postcount=59

What church believes in and a comment letter

http://svng.com/tracy/what.htm

I found the extremely quick and intense involvement with the Harris family in 1960 to be VERY unusual for that period of time, especially. ( Not that I can remember quite that far back, but I do remember what Baptist pastors were like in the later 60's, lol).

Yes, one of the strangest parts of this bio on Lawless is that there is a distinction made about the day Lawless was " saved" and the date of his baptism, which was his wedding day and that his FIL performed both ceremonies. The statement about him being " saved" implies that he was not a Christian when he met Connie, because Baptists recognize salvation in all other Christian denominations as well as the Baptist church. Usually, one would expect to read " Was received into the Baptist faith through baptism on July 6, 1960 at the ____ Baptist Church", if he had ever been a Methodist, Catholic, etc.

Yes, a pastor would expect his daughter to marry a good devout Baptist of long duration, especially at that point in time. I know that Lawless was in his 30's, but I don't know how old Connie was when they started dating. Maybe she was of the age to be away from her parent's home, or maybe she hid things from them, and they were unaware of the dating for a while, I don't know.

It appears that they only dated for 3-4 months before getting married.
I think I may have answered my and your questions about the entire rushed wedding/ baptism.
Was their first child born ' prematurely', by any chance ?
Anyone have DOBs on their offspring?

 

[Nora Charles]

It sounds like whatever that denomination is, they have had some sexual abuse issues they try to cover up within the church. I read a little on the website and it was just hearbreaking how the victim's parents were supposed to "forgive" the rapist, and not prosecute him. Not only that, they were supposed to still go to church and everything along with that family!! It was sick. I think people saw a website claiming a history of sexual abuse within this denomination, thought Pastor Lawless's church was part of it, and had even more reason to suspect him.

I completely understand why the lady wrote this. Lawless was the pastor at A church called Sovereign Grace Missionary Baptist Church, per his bio.
People Googled and got the wrong website.
Edited to ask:
What is that website about, anyway? Why does there need to be a website about " surviving" something called " Sovereign Grace Ministries?"
Sounds interesting just the same, even if there is no direct connection between Lawless's former church and this survivor's website group.

 

[LinasK]

Did you all see this?

http://eyesforlies.blogspot.com/2009/04/pastor-lane-lawless-video.html

This is what we were talking about yesterday.

Oh, I agree! The wife takes over for him and is in total denial. She seems very naive. He acts like he's spaced out on meds, like "Who Me?"

 

[SeekingJana]

As I was reading your response the same question popped up in my mind!

SPECULATION ALERT: An unplanned pregnancy would CERTAINLY make a situation for a jailhouse-type conversion, a shotgun wedding, and the FIL possibly "helping along" the ordination and pastor position! Anyone have the birth date for their firstborn?

As far as the "saved" date differing from the "baptism" date, the Baptists I have known do make a distinction between the two, unlike Catholics and some other denominations. Because they don't do infant baptism (at least the Baptists I know) they believe it is a demonstration of being born again - thus it couldn't happen until they were old enough to make a decision that they believe in Jesus as their Savior. Then joining the church is another separate event, because they have to be baptized before they become members.

Any Baptist out there, please correct me.


Edit: great link by passionflower in "Church" thread: http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3580261&postcount=59

I was in a mainstream Southern Baptist church until my 20's, at which time I decided organized religion wasn't for me. Maybe I can answer this.

Yes, Baptists, at least Southern Baptists, absolutely do hold the belief that if a person believes in God the Father, and Jesus, His only son, then that person is a Christian, meaning, they will go to the exact same Heaven as Baptists hopefully will.
The reference for this belief is the thief on the cross beside Jesus at the time of the crucifixtion. The thief had no opportunity to be baptized or for any other ceremonial act of obedience to take place, but he had the one thing needed: Belief in Jesus and God the Father.
Jesus said " Today thou shalt be with me in Paradise", to the thief who asked for salvation, belieiving that Jesus was the son of God.

Mainstream Baptists, which usually includes Missionary Baptist churches, believe exactly what is said by Jesus in the Bible, John 3: 16:
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son , that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life."

Baptism is a symbolic act of faith and obedience, because Jesus was baptized. It does NOT confer salvation, not even for a Baptist. Only God and the personal belief inside one's soul determines salvation and the " going to Heaven" thing.

 

[Nora Charles]

I was in a mainstream Southern Baptist church until my 20's, at which time I decided organized religion wasn't for me. Maybe I can answer this.

Yes, Baptists, at least Southern Baptists, absolutely do hold the belief that if a person believes in God the Father, and Jesus, His only son, then that person is a Christian, meaning, they will go to the exact same Heaven as Baptists hopefully will.
The reference for this belief is the thief on the cross beside Jesus at the time of the crucifixtion. The thief had no opportunity to be baptized or for any other ceremonial act of obedience to take place, but he had the one thing needed: Belief in Jesus and God the Father.
Jesus said " Today thou shalt be with me in Paradise", to the thief who asked for salvation, belieiving that Jesus was the son of God.

Mainstream Baptists, which usually includes Missionary Baptist churches, believe exactly what is said by Jesus in the Bible, John 3: 16:
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son , that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life."

Baptism is a symbolic act of faith and obedience, because Jesus was baptized. It does NOT confer salvation, not even for a Baptist. Only God and the personal belief inside one's soul determines salvation and the " going to Heaven" thing.

Thanks for explaining it so thoroughly, SeekingJana! Can I ask you another question to make sure I understand this paragraph in post #119:

"Yes, one of the strangest parts of this bio on Lawless is that there is a distinction made about the day Lawless was " saved" and the date of his baptism, which was his wedding day and that his FIL performed both ceremonies. The statement about him being " saved" implies that he was not a Christian when he met Connie, because Baptists recognize salvation in all other Christian denominations as well as the Baptist church. Usually, one would expect to read " Was received into the Baptist faith through baptism on July 6, 1960 at the ____ Baptist Church", if he had ever been a Methodist, Catholic, etc."


Does that mean that if he were previously Methodist or Catholic, and baptized in one of those churches, he would have to be baptized again when he joined the Baptist church? I'm thinking this is where I'm lost - sorry to be a pain. If I have it correct, I'm thinking that if it was an infant baptism, then he would have to be because it wasn't his personal decision at that time to accept Jesus as his Savior. However, what is the procedure if he was baptized as an adult, when he got saved, but then joined the Baptist church - would he have to get baptized again at that time?

Thanks for being patient with me. I want to make sure I understand how the denomination works, so I'm interpreting the events that transpired in Pastor Lawless's past correctly.:blowkiss:

And thanks for everyone else for putting up with my being on this tangent - I just want to make sure I understand how things work in his denomination so I don't sleuth down a wrong path!:blowkiss:

 

[SeekingJana]

Thanks for explaining it so thoroughly, SeekingJana! Can I ask you another question to make sure I understand this paragraph in post #119:

"Yes, one of the strangest parts of this bio on Lawless is that there is a distinction made about the day Lawless was " saved" and the date of his baptism, which was his wedding day and that his FIL performed both ceremonies. The statement about him being " saved" implies that he was not a Christian when he met Connie, because Baptists recognize salvation in all other Christian denominations as well as the Baptist church. Usually, one would expect to read " Was received into the Baptist faith through baptism on July 6, 1960 at the ____ Baptist Church", if he had ever been a Methodist, Catholic, etc."


Does that mean that if he were previously Methodist or Catholic, and baptized in one of those churches, he would have to be baptized again when he joined the Baptist church? I'm thinking this is where I'm lost - sorry to be a pain. If I have it correct, I'm thinking that if it was an infant baptism, then he would have to be because it wasn't his personal decision at that time to accept Jesus as his Savior. However, what is the procedure if he was baptized as an adult, when he got saved, but then joined the Baptist church - would he have to get baptized again at that time?

Thanks for being patient with me. I want to make sure I understand how the denomination works, so I'm interpreting the events that transpired in Pastor Lawless's past correctly.:blowkiss:

And thanks for everyone else for putting up with my being on this tangent - I just want to make sure I understand how things work in his denomination so I don't sleuth down a wrong path!:blowkiss:

Hi,
Yes. a person who joins a Baptist church from another Christian denomination would be baptized shortly after joining the church. However- and this is the important distinction not made in the bio on Lawless- the pastor of the Baptist church accepting the person as a new member would make sure the congregation knew the person was already a Christian if they were coming from another church, if the person told the Baptist pastor that they experienced personal salvation at a prior time in their lives.

Some Christian religious faiths baptize babies as a ritual of protection and of commitment to God, but the plan of salvation is still told in the Scriptures as :
A person who reaches the age of accountability will have a personal recognition of being a sinner, will pray for forgiveness ( repentance) and will accept God as their personal Savior. This doesn't have anything to do with A church. It has to do with what each person has experienced and believes.

Also, Baptists believe that if a person becomes a Christian in the Baptist church but dies before they can be baptized, they are still a Christian, a Baptist, and are going to heaven.
Again, baptism is a ritual more than anything else.

Just like mainstream Protestant churches which have the Lord's Supper do not believe the bread and water ( or grape juice) is actually Christ's body. ( As opposed to the Roman Catholic belief of transfiguration of the Host).
It, like baptism, is a re-creation of an act of fellowship that Jesus shared with His disciples. Does not influence salvation or condition of the soul, etc.

 

[txsvicki]

Baptists will also allow people to be baptized again in the Baptist church. Say, if a child goes forward at the invitation then follows with baptism and goes on to later believe they didn't understand it all. That person could years later , even if after living a bad life for awhile, ask to be baptized again and the preacher will do it. Baptists consider the person a Christian, but not actually a member of the church until Baptism. When baptized, they become a member of the church that did the baptism.

 

[Nora Charles]

By jove, I think I've got it! lol I really appreciate this, because I didn't want to get off track by being unfamiliar with this particular denomination. Hopefully others have been helped also, and we can sleuth more effectively. Thanks, SeekingJana!!

 

[SeekingJana]

Good points, Vickie.
I've never known of someone asking to be re-baptized as an adult, but I know it probably happens.
I've also never known of a Baptist minister to make a distinction between a baptized Baptist and a new, unbaptized person if the person dies before baptism. Theoretically, I'm not sure why it would matter, since Baptists are Christians, and that's the main thing. KWIM?
But, in accordance with what I remember about the Southern Baptist articles of faith or creed or whatever ( I don't remember the term) you are right about both unusual occurrances.

 

[SeekingJana]

By jove, I think I've got it! lol I really appreciate this, because I didn't want to get off track by being unfamiliar with this particular denomination. Hopefully others have been helped also, and we can sleuth more effectively. Thanks, SeekingJana!!

LOL, you made me laugh. :blowkiss:
First time since I've been posting on this case.

In general, unless someone is " tolerant" enough to put up with an extremely radical Baptist group, Baptists are just mainstream Christians who barely dunk a person in a baptismal font ( like a shallow small pool) .
No snake-handling, no speaking in tongues, no rolling in the aisles, nothing that would awaken the dozers in the congregation.

 

[Salem]

It sounds like whatever that denomination is, they have had some sexual abuse issues they try to cover up within the church. I read a little on the website and it was just hearbreaking how the victim's parents were supposed to "forgive" the rapist, and not prosecute him. Not only that, they were supposed to still go to church and everything along with that family!! It was sick. I think people saw a website claiming a history of sexual abuse within this denomination, thought Pastor Lawless's church was part of it, and had even more reason to suspect him.

See my bold - could this line of reasoning have anything to do with the envelope found today "from Sandra to My Killer"? Interesting thought. I know LE said there was no connection, but it makes you wonder?

Salem

 

[gibby207]

I found the extremely quick and intense involvement with the Harris family in 1960 to be VERY unusual for that period of time, especially. ( Not that I can remember quite that far back, but I do remember what Baptist pastors were like in the later 60's, lol).

Yes, one of the strangest parts of this bio on Lawless is that there is a distinction made about the day Lawless was " saved" and the date of his baptism, which was his wedding day and that his FIL performed both ceremonies. The statement about him being " saved" implies that he was not a Christian when he met Connie, because Baptists recognize salvation in all other Christian denominations as well as the Baptist church. Usually, one would expect to read " Was received into the Baptist faith through baptism on July 6, 1960 at the ____ Baptist Church", if he had ever been a Methodist, Catholic, etc.

Yes, a pastor would expect his daughter to marry a good devout Baptist of long duration, especially at that point in time. I know that Lawless was in his 30's, but I don't know how old Connie was when they started dating. Maybe she was of the age to be away from her parent's home, or maybe she hid things from them, and they were unaware of the dating for a while, I don't know.

It appears that they only dated for 3-4 months before getting married.
I think I may have answered my and your questions about the entire rushed wedding/ baptism.
Was their first child born ' prematurely', by any chance ?
Anyone have DOBs on their offspring?

I'm sorry I've been away... I'm sick (blech).

But I DID talk with my MIL. She's in her 70s and from the Brewster/Twisp/Omak area. Her memory is thin, and she is going to try to dig more information from her friends as well.

She said she recalls NO A. Harris from the region. She DOES recall the last name Lawless. Not Lane, Cliff sounds maybe right, but she said there was a second marriage and the name came from that, she thinks. She is going to try to find out more as I was surprised that she hadn't heard of A. Harris at all, being a pastor at the Baptist church in Omak and all.

So, not much new, but we are still missing some years there that hopefully my MIL can fill in. One thing she did say is that a lot of people she knew at that time are dead or dying so it may be difficult to pin this down. She has one good friend who may remember more and will be talking with her this weekend.

 

[FishingFunnyFrog]

I know LE has not come right out and cleared anyone.
The Lawless mobile home has been searched more than once, the phones and computer have been confiscated via search warrant, Lawless was questioned most of the night after Sandra's body was found, and his church searched. Why the heavy concentration on L. Lawless if he is not a viable suspect?

My late stepfather was a Methodist minister and stayed at a rather large Methodist church for approximately 15 years. We only moved twice while I was growing up.

I find it very odd that Lawless was 'called' to the ministry on April 6th, 1971, and was ordained on August 20, 1971. That is a period of just over 4 months. There is no way you can be ordained in that length of Theology study. I have spent a couple of hours looking up the Alisal Baptist Institute of Salinas and the Alisal Baptist Institute Theological Seminary. There is no accreditation anywhere to be found. There is no board of directors, and nothing on file at all for tax exempt status. IMO, and only IMO, it did not exist except on paper. I also do not see how L. Lawless father in law could ordain him.

All of the other pastors at Grace Missionary Church were there for several years, yet L. Lawless was the pastor for only 1 year. I just wonder about that.

Unlike some, I do find that so many alias's exist of this man. IMO, that is unusual for a minister. Why the variations? Is he really an ordained minister?

IMO, after LE looked at this man's computer and phones, then talked with him so many hours just after Sandra's body was found, IF he can be cleared LE certainly should have done so by now. IMO, there certainly must be something about him that doesn't sit well with LE.

Sorry for the long post.

Baptist often don't require the same amount of formal study or a degree from an accredited seminary as other denominations require. There isn't a great emphasis on theological education in many of the Baptist denominations. So it isn't that unusual that he was ordained 4 months after being called.

 

[FishingFunnyFrog]

It sounds like whatever that denomination is, they have had some sexual abuse issues they try to cover up within the church. I read a little on the website and it was just hearbreaking how the victim's parents were supposed to "forgive" the rapist, and not prosecute him. Not only that, they were supposed to still go to church and everything along with that family!! It was sick. I think people saw a website claiming a history of sexual abuse within this denomination, thought Pastor Lawless's church was part of it, and had even more reason to suspect him.

The denominations are completey different in every way except that they both believe in Believer baptism. Other than that Clover Rd. Baptis and Sovereign Grace Ministries have totally different theology.

 

[FishingFunnyFrog]

I found the extremely quick and intense involvement with the Harris family in 1960 to be VERY unusual for that period of time, especially. ( Not that I can remember quite that far back, but I do remember what Baptist pastors were like in the later 60's, lol).

Yes, one of the strangest parts of this bio on Lawless is that there is a distinction made about the day Lawless was " saved" and the date of his baptism, which was his wedding day and that his FIL performed both ceremonies. The statement about him being " saved" implies that he was not a Christian when he met Connie, because Baptists recognize salvation in all other Christian denominations as well as the Baptist church. Usually, one would expect to read " Was received into the Baptist faith through baptism on July 6, 1960 at the ____ Baptist Church", if he had ever been a Methodist, Catholic, etc.

Yes, a pastor would expect his daughter to marry a good devout Baptist of long duration, especially at that point in time. I know that Lawless was in his 30's, but I don't know how old Connie was when they started dating. Maybe she was of the age to be away from her parent's home, or maybe she hid things from them, and they were unaware of the dating for a while, I don't know.

It appears that they only dated for 3-4 months before getting married.
I think I may have answered my and your questions about the entire rushed wedding/ baptism.
Was their first child born ' prematurely', by any chance ?
Anyone have DOBs on their offspring?

Brian is currently age 47. Not sure if Brett is older or younger. Not sure about Joni either except her children are all younger than Brett and Brian's children.

 

[Nora Charles]

Baptist often don't require the same amount of formal study or a degree from an accredited seminary as other denominations require. There isn't a great emphasis on theological education in many of the Baptist denominations. So it isn't that unusual that he was ordained 4 months after being called.

Thank you FFF, I didn't know any Baptist churches did that. If this is one of those branches of the Baptist denomination, it wouldn't look so hinky after all.

 

[Nora Charles]

Brian is currently age 47. Not sure if Brett is older or younger. Not sure about Joni either except her children are all younger than Brett and Brian's children.

Thank you! Pastor Lawless was married July 9, 1960, so if Brett is older that Brian it might just explain things.

 

[gibby207]

Based on the new information, I'm expanding on my theory a bit. L. Lawless was "saved" from his past, whatever that was, by his Elder Harris. Does anyone think Pastor Lawless is "paying it forward" by having people such as FW and Melissa Huckaby (a.k.a. Lawless) in his life? Am I making sense here?

 

[passionflower]

IIRC Connie was home when MLH left house (Kidnapped/murdered Sandra)
where was Lane?

 

[smart blonde]

IIRC Connie was home when MLH left house (Kidnapped/murdered Sandra)
where was Lane?

I have been wondering the very same thing...
It has been stated that Connie Lawless was home when Melissa went to the church... where was the Pastor?
Was he home, too? Was he at the church already? Where?