CO CO - Roger Ellison, 17, Cedaredge, 10 Feb 1981 #2

[LucyOso]

Great post above Lucy! Thank you!

With regards to the following:



How much time passed between Mr. Pash requiring the students to turn in the writing assignment and Roger's disappearance? It might be mentioned, but I don't remember.

I agree. Could there have been something so private in the journal writing of Roger's, that he was shocked that Pash would have the students turn in said work and even though the responses were anonymous, would the students still have known something about Roger from the responses on the board? What was the purpose of the assignment and for which of Mr. Pash's classes was it assigned?

However, I don't think Roger would say to his friend Mitch, "I'll see you in class and we'll catch up than." if he had planned on that day to run away. Why would he put his friends parents through that kind of pain and devastation? I totally agree that when a student does as well as Roger did in school and sports, feelings of something being wrong are often masked and not talked about. Very powerful insight!

Satch

BBM. Thanks Satch, good points.

Ok...The class was a basic psychology class and they had to focus on 10 aspects of themselves and journal or something. Mr. Pash was teaching it under the umbrella of social sciences, though it was not in his field. Since it was psychology, I am sure most students (thinking it was not to be turned in) did take it seriously. From personal experience as a student and teen, they are a very sensitive, self-absorbed, insecure, conspiracy theory bunch. I know if the teacher put something I thought was private on the board, I would be so embarrassed and being a teen ASSUME everyone could figure out who posted it. Think about simple things...like the teen girl who has a pimple and thinks everyone can see it and it is the size of Everest and she is certain she will get stares and comments, etc. And she creates this catastrophe in her head about a zit. When in reality, no one noticed, because teens are all caught up in their own pimples, fears, etc..LOL. Something like that could really push a kid over the edge. This actually happened to me on a creative writing assignment once and up until a few years ago, I was pretty upset about it. Long story...but, it was awful. In hindsight after talking with some old classmates, none of my peers were even paying attention to my story as they were so afraid their stories would get read out loud. Yes, so the content could very well be a catalyst for him to run away or be suicidal.

If Roger was planning to leave or commit suicide, I am sure he would try to act as normal as possible without having to discuss what was going on. I don't think he would do anything other than say to his friend, we will catch up later. See you on the flip side. Why would he risk someone interfering with his plan? Obviously, what ever occurred wasn't attention seeking behavior. In kids who are suicidal or running away, the quiet ones who do not talk are the serious ones. Those are the ones who follow through. Not the kids who talk to everyone about it. So...the Mitch response is very appropriate if he was trying to seem normal, not let anyone into his inside world, and had a plan. Anyway, a suicidal or depressed person actually believes they are doing people a favor by leaving or ending their life. It is a strange kind of thinking that not many people understand or can empathize with, but, they honestly feel their existence is far more harmful to the people around them if they stayed alive. They feel they ARE being selfless and thoughtful...IMOO.

I also would like to add one thing: If Pash was what he is claimed to be on blogs, I am certain he would not have stuffed the assignments in his desk so police would find them. I am sure if certain kids in his class were going to his house, he would have read those assignments. The other side of that is perhaps, he kept the assignments for the purpose of his argument. But, i am more apt to believe he was just overworked, underpaid, and really forgot about them.

:twocents:

 

[LucyOso]

I haven't posted here but have a few thoughts to contribute.

Regarding the teacher, I don't know him from Adam but I feel that people may be a bit harsh regarding his tone. I teach at college level and there are public boards where students make comments about their professors. It is common practice to write a pack of lies about a professor who has given you a bad grade or caught you cheating and failed you. Nobody but the professor knows that what the student posted is defamatory. These boards, like websleuths, can be googled and seen by future employers, neighbors, future dates etc etc. While I can live with the sting of the defamation, clearly having these kinds of lies about yourself openly available can turn out to be problematic. If the teacher is innocent (and even if he is not) having his name discussed here together with his location has all sorts of implications for his life and I can sympathize that he feels the sting and lashes out. To be fair, there is a lot of speculation here and he did provide more info, whether you feel you can trust it or not. He is 'outed' here with his real name while most others here are unknown identities IRL to him. I can see how this is stressful for him and how that explains his tone.

I believe Roger's sister hinted in a post here that the teacher implied that the material submitted by Roger indicated suicidal intentions. The teacher also explained that he had not yet seen/graded the material that was confiscated by the police so he could not have acted on the paper's content. He also said that the police asked him to share the content of the paper with the parents which explains why he did not go immediately. That is his explanation of events which is not implausible. What I find difficult to grasp however is why Roger would put these kinds of feelings in an assignment to a teacher he hardly knew (according to the teacher) but would not leave a letter to his family who he was very close to. My guess would be that if you are silent about your suicidal intentions, you are silent all the way and don't put it in an assignment.

Also, if he did commit suicide, it is possible that the body was not found because of the terrain. But again, is it plausible that he would commit suicide somewhere where his body was not likely to be found knowing what distress this would cause to the family?

It also does not add up that on the one hand, the teacher pushes the suicide theory but on the other makes reference to Roger having been seen hitchhiking out of town. So he implies two different scenarios.

The teacher also indicates that the newspaper articles on this case that were published immediately after the disappearance report that Roger was seen by witnesses hitchhiking out of town. Does anyone have access to these articles and could you post them here? We have only seen the 1982 article here where the police chief is quoted as saying there were no further sightings of Roger after he saw his friend who he shared the locker with at 8am.

Lori's blog and timeline make reference to two witnesses who interacted with Roger the day of his disappearance. There is no reference to this elsewhere and I know Lori has passed. But can we find independent confirmation of this ? Likewise of the story of the two hunters? Does anybody who knew Lori know where she got this info from?

I think these are the areas to concentrate on. If we can debunk the theory that Roger was seen after 8am outside the school, that closes down a whole avenue of thought/speculation. But if it turns out that Roger was indeed headed out of town, then that is a crucial bit of information.

Good post. I agree with you entirely. My husband is a professor and sadly, sites such as "Rate my Professor" or even their evaluations by angry young adults who flunk a class are part of their record. I also felt people were being rather harsh, hence my post. I agree that we need to figure out if he hitchhiked out of town or not. Focusing on Pash is not helping the case. If I were Pash, after so many years, I would get pretty frustrated by the focus as well. If he did it, that is one thing...but...when other leads have not been fully explored, that is a huge problem.

 

[STANDREID]

Why did they bother with ground penetrating radar if the weren't going dig into the anomalies?

 

[LucyOso]

Why did they bother with ground penetrating radar if the weren't going dig into the anomalies?

Great question. Maybe they know more than we do. Maybe they do have a suspect or two in mind and were hoping these people would get very nervous with the radar searches? Or maybe the anomalies are not consistent with a body? I have no idea...Anyone?

 

[kemo]

There has been quite a bit of discussion on ground penetrating radar on the "Springfield Three" Thread. From what I can tell, an "anomaly" is anything in the ground that is different from the rest of the soil. From that they can differentiate "hard" substances from softer substances and they are able to get an idea of the shape of the anomaly. A freshly buried body might stand out very clearly but a body that has completely decayed and the space it occupied replaced by surrounding soil, would not be distinguishable from the normal variations that ocurr in most soil. A technician might determine that the anomaly was "consistent with a body" but it would be a real long shot.

 

[Satch]

I guess the nagging questions that persists in this case,

With no evidence of a body, no motive, why is LE very strong in the belief that Roger was killed shortly after he disappeared? Lucy made some very good points above! I would like to look into what is known about Roger's life before he vanished?

It seems that so many know much more about Mr. Pash than Roger, or think they know more about Mr. Pash. AFAIK, Mr. Pash was never a suspect in the case, just a person of interest. Could Mr. Pash be little more than a rightfully concerned teacher, falsely accused?

It is true that speculation in our society has a way of becoming fact. I agree that the views and beliefs of how suicide was handled are a lot different today than in 1081 when Roger vanished. We need to find concrete evidence about Roger to really understand what or who caused him to leave.

The main things on which to focus. Did Roger leave the school grounds at any time during the day? Did he communicate with anybody anything that was unusual in the months, weeks, days, hours, and minutes before he vanished? Did parents and friends just assume everything was great with Roger, because he was an outstanding student with a great attendance record?

Could the false stigma have been the following for LE and Roger's family in 1981, which has not changed over time for those close to the case?

"Straight-A students don't commit suicide or have emotional problems, so somebody MUST have done something to him. Hummmm, let's see, Pash is an interesting character, who gave out what could be seen as a controversial assignment. The kids say they hung out at his house, JP gave them marijuana or whatever, so let's focus on him?"

Is JP guilty by accusation? Was too much time spent trying to "suspect Pash" of anything connected negatively to Roger? Could this time have been more productive in finding out what happened to Roger?

Satch

 

[LucyOso]

I guess the nagging questions that persists in this case,

1.With no evidence of a body, no motive, why is LE very strong in the belief that Roger was killed shortly after he disappeared? Lucy made some very good points above! I would like to look into what is known about Roger's life before he vanished?

It seems that so many know much more about Mr. Pash than Roger, or think they know more about Mr. Pash. AFAIK, 2. Mr. Pash was never a suspect in the case, just a person of interest. Could Mr. Pash be little more than a rightfully concerned teacher, falsely accused?

3. It is true that speculation in our society has a way of becoming fact. I agree that the views and beliefs of how suicide was handled are a lot different today than in 1081 when Roger vanished. We need to find concrete evidence about Roger to really understand what or who caused him to leave.

The main things on which to focus. 4. Did Roger leave the school grounds at any time during the day? Did he communicate with anybody anything that was unusual in the months, weeks, days, hours, and minutes before he vanished? Did parents and friends just assume everything was great with Roger, because he was an outstanding student with a great attendance record?

Could the false stigma have been the following for LE and Roger's family in 1981, which has not changed over time for those close to the case?

"5. Straight-A students don't commit suicide or have emotional problems, so somebody MUST have done something to him. Hummmm, let's see, Pash is an interesting character, who gave out what could be seen as a controversial assignment. The kids say they hung out at his house, JP gave them marijuana or whatever, so let's focus on him?"

Is JP guilty by accusation? Was 6. too much time spent trying to "suspect Pash" of anything connected negatively to Roger? Could this time have been more productive in finding out what happened to Roger?

Satch

Hi Satch. BBM, great points.

1. I am not sure how LE treated missing kids in 1981. Did they not really do much (kids will be kids, he ran way) and after say, well he didn't show back up so it must be foul play? That DID happen a lot in the 1980's, where cases were not taken super seriously right away.

2. and 3 and 6. Yes, Pash was a person of interest and not a suspect. There is a huge difference. So, because Pash was also a "transplant" in the area as a teacher, he is immediately an "outsider" and people may focus on him (small town stuff). Seriously, even today, with all the information out there now people still don't know how to "handle suicide" or respond to kids who are struggling.

4. Roger was on the ski team. From my experience on the ski team, it is very common to leave school during the day to train. What was his training pattern? Did people not notice his absence or him walking away because it was typical for him to be absent to compete or practice? Are we looking at the possibility that he in fact did leave school to train and there are other circumstances/players involved besides Pash?

5. The statement that straight-A students don't commit suicide is not realistic. Usually, the kids who commit suicide are the overachievers, those under so much pressure to be something they are not, etc. Again..teens are so focused on self and sensitive at this age.

Ok...just an speculation here. Roger left near Valentine's Day. That time of year is one of the highest for suicides and domestic abuse. Did whatever he write in his paper that Pash collected (trust me, I would be horrified, mortified, and suicidal if I poured out my personal thoughts, only to have the teacher collect it) create a catalyst? The only thing that could suggest that was leaving all his belongings at home and dropping of books or possible teen writings. But...

A. Is it possible the only reason why Pash was a person of interest was due to what Roger wrote. Seriously, we are thinking along the lines of sensationalism-the drugs, orgies, etc. What if Roger wrote he had a crush on Pash's wife or Pash himself? He did meet Mrs. Pash to drop off assignments. Imagine his fear if Pash read that he fantasized about her or something. Or saying he was interested in Pash would be a horrific coming out event in a small town or anywhere during the time. It could have really been a kids confused thoughts about his identity and sexuality. And, once it was turned in, he knew Pash would read it. (Imagine LE focusing on Pash thinking Roger was into his wife or something and Roger vanishing after...of course he would be a person of interest...). The point that Pash never read it pretty much does not make him a true suspect.

B. Is it also possible, with V-day coming up, he wrote about a girl or guy he liked or was rejected by. He may have been so worried Pash would continue the posting the assignment in public, it made him want to disappear.

C. I still think we need to look at the trend of young males vanishing in the state during those years, just in case there was a link to them. There is a REAL chance that because Roger was absent from school and did a lot of make-up assignments that he got to school, realized he forgot an assignment that was due, decided to hoof it home and got a ride by someone on the way who abducted him. Young men are impulsive, not sure how far home was or if his parents were home, but, he may have thought walking/jogging home to get the assignment was the fastest thing. He could have tried to call and got a busy signal, or if the parents were at work, had no options other then to walk home. Especially, if it was an assignment that to due date was extended and he would get an F on (pressure of being a straight A student). Or...he had an oh crap momnet and realized he had to train after school and didn't bring his ski gear, so made the choice to leave to get his car/skis, etc....Ideas?

 

[dogperson]

If I had written an assignment with things so personal in it that I wouldn't want it seen, I would have pretended I didn't have it with me that day so I wouldn't have to turn it in. Maybe Roger decided to be brave and go ahead and do it, but personally I think I would rather have taken an F than have somebody see something that would embarrass/upset me or expose some of my deepest thoughts and feelings. He must have felt the paper was safe with the teacher and may have been okay with him reading it as long as the rest of the class didn't see it???? Or maybe even something he wrote was a cry for help and he thought Mr Pash would read it and be able to help somehow?

 

[believe09]

I am curious as to why people are running with the suicide theory? Is there confirmation or something definitive that indicates Roger's assignment(s) contained thoughts of suicide?

2. and 3 and 6. Yes, Pash was a person of interest and not a suspect. There is a huge difference. So, because Pash was also a "transplant" in the area as a teacher, he is immediately an "outsider" and people may focus on him (small town stuff).

As Mr Pash pointed out himself, there is no such thing as a POI. It is kind of a made up term. You are a suspect or you arent. Clearly Mr Pash is a suspect-multiple interviews, they dug up his former property...LE is not wasting the resources unless they are dissatisfied with the information Mr Pash has provided to date. I have no idea whether or not he is involved, but it seems abundantly clear that he is a suspect.

Those who knew Roger, including his family, have posted here. They dont believe he was suicidal. I think that has to weigh as heavily as the intimation he was...regardless of whether or not that intimation was made by Mr Pash himself.

Mr Pash says in his posts here that he didnt know Roger. Enough to put a face to a name, I guess. Mr Pash says he turned over material he thought was relevant to the investigation and iirc Mr Pash says he did not tell Roger's mother that Roger was suicidal.

*shrug*

 

[dogperson]

The school assignment is puzzling and when Mr Pash posted on this thread he seemed to be stating that Roger's answers were relevant to his disappearance/frame of mind at the time. They must have been significant enough for the police to take them and then later to ask Mr Pash to talk with Roger's mom. That doesn't necessarily mean his writings indicated suicidal thoughts. There could have been other things that were indicated in the writings: relationship problems, drug use (I am referencing the marijuana which he was said to have used a bit), some kind of altercation or problems he was having with another individual. I know the family is under no obligation to disclose to us what the assignment said, if indeed they have been told. Maybe the police and the family finally concluded that whatever the assignment said had no bearing on whatever they suspect happened to Roger and if so then I can understand not wanting to reveal something very personal that he wrote. Mr Pash stated Roger was "looking for" something but I have no idea what that could mean.
Personally, I still lean heavily toward the foul play theory but I do not rule out suicide. The main things I would wonder about suicide is where did he go that day to do it (since he has not been found), and what method would he have used? Could he have gotten far enough away or well hidden enough that nobody was able to find him? Did he have access to a gun or lethal dose of medication? I suppose he could illegally purchase enough prescription opiates or other drugs to commit suicide with. I wonder how much money he normally carried. Of course, anybody could take a rope into the woods and hang themselves from a tree. Or maybe the men he was supposedly seen talking to gave him a ride out of town and he ran away. But there must be some reason the police believe he was killed shortly after he vanished. There may be items they are keeping quiet until the time comes that they can move forward with this case.

 

[Danaya]

Another interesting thing, on the suicide theory, Pash indicated that Roger returned ALL of his books to the school. He also said that it was out of the ordinary for students to bring all of their books to school, especially for his class, because he seldom used the textbook during class. If Roger was planning on committing suicide, the books could have been returned as part of him "tying up loose ends", so to speak. I would think he went to the woods to commit suicide and his remains have long been disrupted by animals and the elements.

Pash also mentioned that the death bed confession is pretty dramatic, and on further review, I tend to agree with him. I don't think the death bed confession of the man who claimed to see a man holding a gun in the woods holds much weight, I mean, where was this reported? How did Charley Project even get this information--the police themselves? Another thing he said, these two men were both armed with hunting rifles... why wouldn't they do anything? Again, where was did they get this information from?

 

[dogperson]

I wonder why Pash thought it was unusual for students to have all their books at school. When I was in school we normally only took home the books for which we had homework that night and left the rest in our locker. In fact, my books (all of them) were far more likely to be at school than anywhere with me because I was a careless student. Why would you keep your books at home? Wouldn't you need each book in each class every day? I don't know what the rules were in Roger's school but my school required you to bring your book to every class whether it was used in the classroom that day or not.

 

[LucyOso]

I wonder why Pash thought it was unusual for students to have all their books at school. When I was in school we normally only took home the books for which we had homework that night and left the rest in our locker. In fact, my books (all of them) were far more likely to be at school than anywhere with me because I was a careless student. Why would you keep your books at home? Wouldn't you need each book in each class every day? I don't know what the rules were in Roger's school but my school required you to bring your book to every class whether it was used in the classroom that day or not.

I know when I was a kid who was on the road a lot for sports and missed classes for them, I usually had my books at home or on the bus, plane, car..they have to make up readings/homework somewhere...

 

[ThePhantom]

For some reason Roger Ellison has been on my mind a lot lately. Did you guys happen to see the comment on an old blog from '09 in which a former student made strong allegations against Mr. Pash? Do you think it was just a disgruntled student? I wonder how such allegations might have been handled back then. I wonder how equipped this particular police department was in investigating this kind of a situation. It's not uncommon for various police depts across the country to be less than proficient in handling more complex cases (Josh Guimond, Joseph Morse, etc etc etc). For example, I thought the Ramsey case was handled abominably. Though I can't say with certaintly that Roger didn't commit suicide, examining the whole of his life at the time it doesn't appear likely. And where would he have gone that no one would have seen him disappear? He was just a teen -- not experienced in the ways of world. Something sounds amiss in the "meetings" at the teacher's house. Or maybe I am just a skeptical person.

 

[Satch]

For some reason Roger Ellison has been on my mind a lot lately. Did you guys happen to see the comment on an old blog from '09 in which a former student made strong allegations against Mr. Pash? Do you think it was just a disgruntled student? I wonder how such allegations might have been handled back then. I wonder how equipped this particular police department was in investigating this kind of a situation. It's not uncommon for various police depts across the country to be less than proficient in handling more complex cases (Josh Guimond, Joseph Morse, etc etc etc). For example, I thought the Ramsey case was handled abominably. Though I can't say with certaintly that Roger didn't commit suicide, examining the whole of his life at the time it doesn't appear likely. And where would he have gone that no one would have seen him disappear? He was just a teen -- not experienced in the ways of world. Something sounds amiss in the "meetings" at the teacher's house. Or maybe I am just a skeptical person.

I share similar feelings,

This was a tiny, remote Colorado town, where everybody knew everybody. I have never been able to comprehend how nobody could have seen Roger leave that day and go off somewhere? If he did not have a car, or take a car, how far would he have had to walk to have something bad happen to him, or do something bad to himself? It would almost be a scenario where if this was a suicide, Roger had the gun or whatever he used hidden in the woods, or hidden somewhere where only he would find such an item.

An abduction is unlikely by a stranger because Roger was a big guy, athletic, someone who would not be easy to abduct. Then we go back to the drug deal situation could Roger have been used as a scapegoat and saw something that he wasn't supposed to see and had to be silenced for it?

Could it have been ANYBODY (not just Roger) who say something that they weren't supposed to see, on on the morning, that "anybody" just tragically happened to be Roger? However, what would Roger see that would be so bad that he would painfully pay by being killed? The abduction theory, which is what this case is still listed as, seems to make less sense over time. Why does LE still consider this an abduction case?

Personally, I am torn between 60% suicide. 30% that Roger left voluntarily, and only 10% belief that Roger was abducted and killed. Very sad. I hope some closure happens.

Satch

 

[believe09]

Honestly, I think LE listing it as an abduction has to be based on something in the files. Maybe they would be willing to release some of the investigation, if only to inspire some tips.

 

[Satch]

Honestly, I think LE listing it as an abduction has to be based on something in the files. Maybe they would be willing to release some of the investigation, if only to inspire some tips.

Exactly!

I would like to know what LE has in the files that moves this case toward an abduction rather than the other proposed theories? I would anticipate some evidence leading to this assumption, and hopefully they didn't put it in Roger's case file just because people "believed it at the time, so it must be true."

Even if we could have a definitive starting point as to where Roger started to go or went to that morning? How far was his locker from the nearest exit, or any exit door in the school, where Roger might have gone? I do remember looking up the weather for that day, and it was cold and I think rainy. I do remember it was not the kind of weather where a person would want to go a long distance without planning or preparation as to what he/she would do that day.

Satch

 

[KurtieB]

First off, on the deathbed confession, Pash piffles it off as nonsense. If he were involved with the disappearance, he'd trumpet every false lead to the skies to get the microscope off himself. He didn't do that. He evaluated it as I have: a bit of nonsense.

Pash comes across to me as an experienced educator who has learned his lessons with letting students do things atypically. I can understand why he'd do it though - a student's grades follow them around for life. They are often desperate, as they should be, to complete an assignment.

It's hard not to give them a break once in a while. On the other hand, if you give one a break, you'll end up be hounded to give more of them a break. It's a fine line. He sounds like he's been there-done that and has learned (as I did, when I was a teacher in the 1990s).

He had a wife and children at the time of the disappearance - anyone here have kids? - all of the things he is alleged to have done while having a wife and kid to contend with is utter nonsense.

Basically, I believe Pash' story entirely.

I think many have alluded to the fact that Roger was suicidal - both the kid who knew him (Chief) and Pash, as well as others.

Roger's family may have heard from Pash about Roger's writing assignment. Is it any surprise they rejected it immediately and blamed the messenger? They could not accept that their darling boy might have had problems. This is normal for families to do. They usually reject and deny such assertions, even when there's a mountain of evidence. Here, we had very little evidence, and no answers, so it's no surprise they have foisted all of the blame on the pour sap who thought he'd give some insight. They can't believe it, and they can't find their son, so they see the discussion as a conspiracy by the teacher. But that doesn't make it a conspiracy. It just means the teacher should not have said anything to them at all.
But he was asked to by LE, so he did. If he hadn't talked to the family, he'd be even more of a suspect. You see, Pash can't win. He's the unlucky person who got hooked up in suicide case where the body wasn't found.

LE likely expected the body or the boy to turn up at some point either way, so they didn't contemplate all of the long term consequences of having Pash visit the family early on. That visit, if the boy or the body had turned up days or weeks later, would be long forgotten. But that visit becomes much larger and more significant than it should be in light of the fact that we still do not know what happened. Well, it's the fact that he wasn't found that makes it significant, not the fact that Pash talked to his parents.

Someone posted that Roger may have committed suicide that day and that his remains are long gone. I think this is the case.

 

[Satch]

First off, on the deathbed confession, Pash piffles it off as nonsense. If he were involved with the disappearance, he'd trumpet every false lead to the skies to get the microscope off himself. He didn't do that. He evaluated it as I have: a bit of nonsense.

Great post! Yes, when you think about this more, if Pash was involved, I could see where he would make a big deal out of all leads to get the community blame off of him, but like you said, he didn't do that. I also am beginning to think Pash was nothing more than an innocent bystander, made to look like a scapegoat when no physical evidence as to Roger's whereabouts have ever surfaced. Good point, Pash can't win. And that's one of the problems, there's no one else the community can blame.

I agree about suicide as the most likely explanation for Roger's vanishing here. The questions if this is true. How far did Roger have to walk to do this, how did he do it? And if it was suicide, why wasn't his body found?

Satch

 

[kevmob77]

I've always felt that with criminal investigations, it's not so much what one says, it's what they don't say. I think this applies to Pash very well. At the very least, he impeded an investigation. At the worst, he was straight up lying to cover up something.