CO - The Stalking and Mysterious Death of Morgan Ingram #4

[MayraMM]

Is it normal procedure for an ME to rule a death Natural Causes if there was toxicology results pending? Wouldn't they hold the COD until they get the results?

Does that seem strange to anyone else? Why would he open himself to criticism of changing a COD if he was awaiting toxicology results?

I wonder if maybe he wasn't trying to spare the parents by not officially calling it a suicide. That would be very unprofessional, but an attempt at compassion.

 

[fowltemptress]

New post on the blog

 

[gitana1]

Yep, I'm really confused on this one too, the math I did came out to approximately 8 pills of 25 mg amitriptyline, but I admit to sucking at math. I used someone else's original conversion, but had a question where it jumped from mg to grams, but there was no answer to that so I'm still not sure how that step worked.

Another thing that I find confusing is that in my research I found that 750 mg or greater can cause severe toxicity - I would imagine that's based on each individual's body height/weight, etc. - but add in other drugs and their interactions it might not be necessary to reach even that level to cause overdose.

I don't know, maybe I should just stay away from anything involving math. :waitasec:

Yeah, I'm very bad too. But I found on a converter that 7900 nanograms = 0.0079 milligrams.

I don't know if that helps?

I think the belief here is that it would account for the drugs in the blood, but not those in the gastric system. MOO

I don't have any problem doing math (except when I haven't slept in a couple days like the other night), but it's hard to do if you don't have all of the factors.

Right. So I;m also confused as to why injection could be a possibility for the ami. or Flexeril. Both were found in her stomach contents, right?

http://morganingram.com/wordpress/?p=1207

I wanted to get another opinion on what exactly Toni is referring to or speaking of in the above snipped quote, even more specifically the portion above BBM..

I realize she is speaking of possible methods such as injection as a means of administering any/all of the Rx meds found to be in Morgan's system..but am curious as to what she could mean in the BBM stating that at Morgan's viewing(obviously having taken place prior to her being cremated)..at the viewing either herself or someone else noted that by looking at Morgans body at that time they were of the opinion that if an exam had been done of Morgans body for possible injection sites that the exam would have been cursory at best..

Does anyone have any ideas or thoughts on what possibly they could have noticed of noted about the condition of Morgans body at the viewing that would have left someone with the impression that a thorough examination of the body for visuals such as an injection site(s) would not have been possible or likely to have occurred?

Whatever could give someone or leave someone with an impression that a thorough visual exam and search of the body was not likely to have happened and that if it did happen it would have been cursory at best ??

This probably is meaningless but it did intrigue me as to whatever could it be that would have been noticed about the condition or state of Morgan's body at the viewing that would lead someone to believe it would have been impossible for there to have been a thorough visual exam and search of the body for details such as possible injection site(s)?

I just cannot for the life of me think of what that could be ?.. I suppose I could post my question to her in the comment section but again its likely quite meaningless and am hoping one of you guys will just point out the obvious that I'm just totally missing here:doh:

Nail polish was not removed.

 

[marycarney]

Human doses are larger than that, so probably not for horses. (I've seen 100-mg tabs). I'm guessing for dogs perhaps? I'm assuming those are pills, since it says 100 ct.

Still wondering how big the dosage would be for a patch for a horse. For that matter, I wonder how big the actual patch would be.

I have searched and searched - and I cannot find a PATCH form of this drug for humans or animals. I do not think it exists, and am unsure how this particular 'fact' got interjected on the thread. All I can find are tabs and gel. No patch.

 

[MayraMM]

only this, I don't think there is a patch

Yeah, I couldn't find any either a while back when I checked, and I couldn't find reference by any vets to using ami patches on horses at all, no matter how hard I looked. I don't think the patch exists for horses. I'm not even sure the gel is used, since I'm not finding it referenced to horses.

But, since it is used with dogs and cats, it's not outside of the realm of possibility that someone had easy access to it in gel form at home.

 

[spamelope]

New post on blog. http://morganingram.com/wordpress/?p=1317

 

[JaimeSommers]

I wish I had something of value to contribute to whole toxicology discussion, but it makes my head spin. On another topic, I recall early in Thread #1, someone local to the area mentioned the unusually high rate of suicide. Is there any way to find out the ages of the people who died (allegedly) by their own hands -- and their manners of death -- for calendar year 2011? Wondering if there's a pattern. TIA

 

[twinkiesmom]

Twinkie.....what's your gut feeling on the route of that drug?

I think either transdermal (assuming parents are correct about the horse patches) or oral liquid (or powder/crushed tablets in liquid)...really not sure about injection.

Note: the injectable form of ami is available at a much lower dose than the oral because everything injected is absorbed by the body. So it would have taken less of the injectable form to get to the levels Morgan had....hopefully one of the nurses will weigh in on whether the IM administration at the volume she would have had to have received is even feasible....It looks like the concentration on the market is 10 mg/mL based on the info below. You would think though that if she had multiple injections that the coroner would have noticed.

"Intramuscular Dosage

Initially, 20 to 30 mg (2 to 3 ml) four times a day.

When amitriptyline HCl injection is administered intramuscularly, the effects may appear more rapidly than with oral administration."

http://www.rxlist.com/elavil-drug.htm

 

[MayraMM]

I have searched and searched - and I cannot find a PATCH form of this drug for humans or animals. I do not think it exists, and am unsure how this particular 'fact' got interjected on the thread. All I can find are tabs and gel. No patch.

It was suggested that such a large dose couldn't have been taken orally and must have been taken/given via patch. I asked for a link to an ami patch. I, too, was unable to find it a week ago when the topic first came up. I thought maybe someone had found something.

 

[steff13]

New post on blog. http://morganingram.com/wordpress/?p=1317

I wonder if something happened to the "panic button" prior to Morgan's death?



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[SmoothOperator]

If they have video of him entering and/or leaving the property, we have to gear from LE why that wasn't considered when her death was investigated.

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Will have to clicl over to blog to get the exact specifics but mom does say that they have multiple video and/or wildlife cam images of the stalker..one shows him crouched beside a car in the drive way..one video catches him at the rear of moms car at end of drive way right as a cars headlights shine in his direction which causes him to run and flee to attempts to keep from being seen/identified..

anyhow i dont recall there being actual image of him entering or exiting home but she did say there is video and others pics where she says she feels she can tell who it is but as far as being able to make a positive identification from grainy surveiallnace footage at a distance may not be a slam dunk piece of evidence in a court of law..jmo

 

[twinkiesmom]

Yeah, I'm very bad too. But I found on a converter that 7900 nanograms = 0.0079 milligrams.

I don't know if that helps?

No, that's not a valid conversion. It was 7900 ng/mL... Concentrations are not doses and doses are not concentrations. Moreover, oral ami is not 100% absorbed.

http://www.drugs.com/pro/amitriptyline.html

Right. So I;m also confused as to why injection could be a possibility for the ami. or Flexeril. Both were found in her stomach contents, right?

I posted a source on the last thread that said that postmortem redistribution could account for gastric ami even if the dose wasn't given orally. See www.utm.utoronto.ca/~w3fsc402/lectures/03_postmortem.ppt

 

[steff13]

Will have to clicl over to blog to get the exact specifics but mom does say that they have multiple video and/or wildlife cam images of the stalker..one shows him crouched beside a car in the drive way..one video catches him at the rear of moms car at end of drive way right as a cars headlights shine in his direction which causes him to run and flee to attempts to keep from being seen/identified..

anyhow i dont recall there being actual image of him entering or exiting home but she did say there is video and others pics where she says she feels she can tell who it is but as far as being able to make a positive identification from grainy surveiallnace footage at a distance may not be a slam dunk piece of evidence in a court of law..jmo

Perhaps not, but you would think it would be enough to bring the person in for questioning. Didn't LE say they didn't have evidence of a stalker?

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[twinkiesmom]

I have searched and searched - and I cannot find a PATCH form of this drug for humans or animals. I do not think it exists, and am unsure how this particular 'fact' got interjected on the thread. All I can find are tabs and gel. No patch.

When I searched, I did find companies that compounded drugs for horses, but detailed information on specific doses for drugs was not provided.

When I went on the FDA website (veterinary subsite), I could not find that amitriptyline was approved for any animal. For vets to be using this, I am assuming they are taking the human formulations using them off-label for animals, either scaling up or down based on the species.

 

[MayraMM]

I wish I had something of value to contribute to whole toxicology discussion, but it makes my head spin. On another topic, I recall early in Thread #1, someone local to the area mentioned the unusually high rate of suicide. Is there any way to find out the ages of the people who died (allegedly) by their own hands -- and their manners of death -- for calendar year 2011? Wondering if there's a pattern. TIA

I found this:
Total suicides occurring in Garfield County
2011 15
2010 7
2009 12
2007 11

http://www.garfield-county.com/public-health/documents/2011_End_of_Year_Report_for_BOCC_Final.pdf

But it's not broken down to age groups.

 

[K.jill]

Do we know what caused this case to be felony stalking? Iirc there were things the investigators could not do until it was considered felony stalking. Seems they would need facts and evidence to do that. Did they say there was no evidence of a stalker?

 

[steff13]

I read in a previous thread that it was upgraded to felony stalking based on the number of incidents. I don't think the upgrade was necessarily evidence driven.

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[raine1212]

Stalking is a Class 5 felony for the first offense, punishable by up to three years in jail. Repeated offenses, if within seven years of the date of a prior offense for which you were convicted, it is Class 4 felony, punishable by up to 6 years in jail. Stalking is a serious crime, and you will need a qualified Colorado criminal defense attorney to help you come up with a strong defense. Your attorney will make sure that your every detail of your arrest was handled according to the law and that law enforcement followed proper police procedures. Your attorney can help avoid a conviction or even have it overturned if he uncovers any improper conduct.

Bolded by me, If I am understanding the stalker must be caught for it to be a class 5
http://www.morancriminallaw.com/2011/02/stalking-is-a-felony-in-the-state-of-colorado/

 

[K.jill]

I have never been suicidal and every one is different but if I was going to kill myself I would absolutely cancel my Gyno appt.

 

[polly1]

I found this:
Total suicides occurring in Garfield County
2011 15
2010 7
2009 12
2007 11

http://www.garfield-county.com/public-health/documents/2011_End_of_Year_Report_for_BOCC_Final.pdf

But it's not broken down to age groups.

Aspen Times-I believe quoted 45 this year alone.