Conrad Murray trial -Day four.

Hearing Michael Jackson's slurred words of how he wanted to create such a great show; he sounded so earnest and completely unaware of how dangerously drugged he was at the time.

He was 50 years old and pushing himself to perform as if he was still a teenager.

And today's testimony from the first EMS on the scene who described him as pale, underweight and unresponsive. :(

He tried so hard, he deserved much better. I wish that he had had a team of great doctors who could have seen that he had the best medical treatment. Not death at the hands of Dr. Murray.

And throughout the tape he was talking about his hopes and dreams for a childrens hospital. :tears:

Its a darn shame.

jmho
 
BBM

Why do you think that? Just curious about your theory. (I know very little about this case, I've just seen some of the trial testimony.)

Do you mean the fall guy for other doctors involved in prescribing him drugs, or someone wanting MJ dead and Dr. Murray was somehow set up to be the fall guy?

I know only court stuff. It is more a feeling then a theory and one I dont think I can put into words.I will try to highlight why I sorta think he might have be the agreed to fall guy.

Kevin Ortega tells the contract writer about the equipment the DR will need.

He knows this is a request from the doctor he tells the writer that. , uses the Same excuse that Murray later told the contract worker. We know that the reason given was extreme demands on jackson body.
That to me indicates that issue had been talked about between the two ,yet no mentioned in court. If it isnt in court when the talked about that then it is being restricted out or not of value to the prosecution of the defence. IMO Why would a producer question the request of the doctor. It doesnt even sound unreasonable.

Later the meeting at the house involving Ortega , gongaware (i think) and Dr Murry . Murry complains to Ortega about not letting Micheal perform saying Micheal was fine. I do not believe for a second thats what that meeting was about. That meeting was about the fact they were not going to be able to hide Micheals issue of drug addition forever.

The doctor had already mentioned the need for machine on the road because of the demand alledged in court .So Ortega at this meeting should have asked about needing the machine sooner because Micheal was showing signs of trouble which made him concerned. Yet nothing about it is mentioned while he was on the stand

Moving on the the call to the personal assistant and his "setting up stuff" What did Micheal have him set up? Did the personal assisnt help the back door nurse friend set up the drip before? Was this propofol system already in place and thats why it was so back door? Why did Williams have Batteries on him in the security trailer and why did he not testify to that in court? Did he buy a pack when they got the meter? No one keeps batteries arround like that without a need for specifc reason because everything is recharable and these boys were getting paid good money.

Which bring me to the kindergarden medical set up. Murry knew better, requested a medical assistant to be on he contract instead of a nurse. Why not secure your 150,000 a month and get a meter IV eletric fail proof monitor? He could been safe in the event something happen not completely but alot more so then he was.

If it was just careless mistakes I could see but it seems to wreckless ,too haphazard and too backyard. Dr Murray had 4 practices. I bet he owns a few meter IV's with alarms that dont run on AA batteries already.

With Micheals drug addition and weird ticks ,how many of his staff and his production company really thought he would be able to pull off the tour? He couldnt handle rehearsals ,DAILY trips to Dr Kein? While Murray was at his house at night. Murray knew he would get charged he also waited long enough so Micheal could not be revived. He knew the cops would find stuff and was suprized they did not find it faster ,then he told them where it was.


My opinion may change but for now I am suspicous. Think he may have agreed to take the fall for the death of Micheal Jackson. Which still makes him guilty. It just means other people are too.
 
:waitasec: IIRC it is 7 children with 5 different women.
When my eyes are clearer I will look for confirmation but either way.... :shakehead:

And TYVM permrod

jmho

Oh yeah. I had it backwards, LOL. I'm such a rumor starter. Sorry about that.
 
Rochelle cooper.

Wow after seeing everyone else so put together during this trial. She looks kinda unkept. I mean William's hair was so perfect it looked painted on ,hers barely looks brushed.

But she looks like Sarah Jessica Parker.

BBM

I wrote down her name when she spelled it out and her first name is RICHELLE.
 
FYI, Michael Jackson weighed 8 st 1 oz = 112 pounds when he died and his height was documented as between 5-8 and 5-10 and a half; so just before he died he was a virtual skeleton.

According to his autopsy report, there was a scarred section of skin above his left ear that was entirely bald — apparently the result of a 1984 accident when his hair caught fire as he filmed an ad for Pepsi.

MJ's autopsy report also states the singer, who suffered from vitilago, was barely eating and had only pills in his stomach when he died.

MJ suffered several broken ribs as frantic rescuers pumped his chest after he collapsed in cardiac arrest. Three of the injections had penetrated the heart wall — causing damage — but a fourth missed and hit one of the 50-year-old star’s ribs.

He had undergone 13 cosmetic surgeries and his hips, thighs and shoulders were riddled with needle wounds — believed to be the result of injections of narcotic painkillers, given three times a day for years.

The King of Pop’s once handsome face bore a network of plastic surgery scars, while the bridge to his nose had vanished and its right side had partially collapsed. His autopsy report also states he had skin cancer and had undergone a successful operation to shave cells from his chest.

He had lost all of his hair and there were unexplained bruises found on Jackson’s knees and on the fronts of both shins. There were cuts on his back, indicating a recent fall.

http://articles.nydailynews.com/201...fol-intoxication-conrad-murray-jackson-family

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...-findings-of-the-Michael-Jackson-autopsy.html
 
For the drugs ,which makes him a common drug dealer with a title.

:poke::fence:
............:bump:............................is it working yet?
:fencefall:.............:innocent:

A friend came over yesterday, so I missed the last half of the trial. However, I was asking him about this situation. I

If you could work form Michael Jackson, if you could make $1,500 per month, what would you choose?

He said, "That makes no sense, I would not be a "pusher" for MJ." Meaning drug dealer.

At least my friend has his priorities straight. I wonder how many people would do it for the 2 reasons I asked?
 
FYI, Michael Jackson weighed 8 st 1 oz = 112 pounds when he died and his height was documented as between 5-8 and 5-10 and a half; so just before he died he was a virtual skeleton.

http://articles.nydailynews.com/201...fol-intoxication-conrad-murray-jackson-family

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...-findings-of-the-Michael-Jackson-autopsy.html

Respectfully snipped

Not directed at you Bluesky, but this is another example of reporters not getting the facts correct. MJ weighed 136 according to the actual autopsy report. (Thanks to BOZGAL for linking autopsy report earlier.) Here is the link:

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/images/02/09/mj_autopsy.pdf
 
It's so sad he weighed so little when he died (along with a plethora of other ailments). Here he had a lovely chef who cooked all the meals and he didn't eat anything? My goodness, you'd need a crane to get me out of the house if I had a personal chef ;)

I missed some of the chef's testimony -- did she elaborate on if MJ ever ate or not?

So sad --

Mel

ETA: 136 pounds and 5'9" is still very thin. He sure could have used 10-15 pounds.
 
Good post Bozgal. I heard Vinnie today say that Murray only had 5 kids. I thought he had 6 by 7 different women.

He has 7, 2 by his current wife and 5 by other women. That is what was on the screen when Vinnie was talking and then he mentioned the 5 by the other women. I don't recall if it is 5 by 5 different women but it is a total of 7 children.
 
FYI, Michael Jackson weighed 8 st 1 oz = 112 pounds when he died and his height was documented as between 5-8 and 5-10 and a half; so just before he died he was a virtual skeleton.

According to his autopsy report, there was a scarred section of skin above his left ear that was entirely bald — apparently the result of a 1984 accident when his hair caught fire as he filmed an ad for Pepsi.

MJ's autopsy report also states the singer, who suffered from vitilago, was barely eating and had only pills in his stomach when he died.

MJ suffered several broken ribs as frantic rescuers pumped his chest after he collapsed in cardiac arrest. Three of the injections had penetrated the heart wall — causing damage — but a fourth missed and hit one of the 50-year-old star’s ribs.

He had undergone 13 cosmetic surgeries and his hips, thighs and shoulders were riddled with needle wounds — believed to be the result of injections of narcotic painkillers, given three times a day for years.

The King of Pop’s once handsome face bore a network of plastic surgery scars, while the bridge to his nose had vanished and its right side had partially collapsed. His autopsy report also states he had skin cancer and had undergone a successful operation to shave cells from his chest.

He had lost all of his hair and there were unexplained bruises found on Jackson’s knees and on the fronts of both shins. There were cuts on his back, indicating a recent fall.

http://articles.nydailynews.com/201...fol-intoxication-conrad-murray-jackson-family

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...-findings-of-the-Michael-Jackson-autopsy.html

Unfortunately, the 'report' you have quoted is just more tabloid hogwash. Here is the actual autopsy report:

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/images/02/09/mj_autopsy.pdf

MJ weighed 136lbs (within normal limits), NOT 112lbs, and was 5ft 9ins tall.

There were NO pills found in his stomach.

The report does NOT say he had undergone 13 cosmetic surgeries, or that the puncture wounds found were the result of repeated narcotics injections. Dr Murray had been injecting him with Propofol 6 nights a week for about 6 weeks - that would easily account for the puncture wounds noted. There were NO painkillers in MJ's system.

The report does NOT say that the bridge of MJ's nose had vanished or that the right side had partially collapsed. On the contrary, there is no mention of any damage whatsoever, just 2 tiny scars, one on each side of his nostrils, unobstructed nasal passages and a small piece of gauze on the tip (presumably related to the oxygen tubes noted as being in situ in his nose when the EMTs arrived on scene).

The report does NOT state that he had skin cancer, or that there was evidence of any harvesting from his chest.

The report does NOT say that MJ had lost ALL of his hair, or that he had cuts on his back "indicating a recent fall".

The real autopsy report actually dispels several of the lies, inaccuracies and rumours about MJ perpetuated by the media over most of his life, but this 'bombshell' news report from the Sun makes no mention at all of that. What a surprise! :banghead::banghead:
 
It's so sad he weighed so little when he died (along with a plethora of other ailments). Here he had a lovely chef who cooked all the meals and he didn't eat anything? My goodness, you'd need a crane to get me out of the house if I had a personal chef ;)

I missed some of the chef's testimony -- did she elaborate on if MJ ever ate or not?

So sad --

Mel

ETA: 136 pounds and 5'9" is still very thin. He sure could have used 10-15 pounds.


And yet his driver's licence from 1989 has his weight at that time recorded as 120lb and his police booking photo from November 2003 also shows his weight as being 120lb on that occasion, so 136lb was not the lightest he'd ever been. He had also been training hard in preparation for his shows (with Lou Ferrigno) and had stated in interviews over the years that he preferred to carry as little weight as possible when performing.

People around him in those last few weeks have mentioned that he appeared to be losing weight but there's no way of knowing now whether that was a conscious decision or the result of a loss of appetite due to stress or the effects of 'medical care' provided by both Klein and Murray.

http://i680.photobucket.com/albums/vv168/eilinenennustus/drivinglicense.jpg

http://arjunpuri.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/14.jpg?w=400&h=258
 
The chef did say he didn't eat the Tuscan bean soup she left for him, right? It sounds like his diet was very light to start with, and then he may have skipped meals on top of that. He took a salad with him to rehearsal, right? Does anyone know if he really rehearsed for 16 hours? A salad is not much to eat if you're rehearsing that long. I'm 5'9" and I'm female and 136 is what my Weight Watchers goal is. It's more than what I weighed in college and I was slim then but not skinny. It's easier for me to believe Michael weighed around 120 than 136 by looking at him, but I realize male and female bodies are different because of percentages of body fat. I know I would not be satisfied on the meals the chef described, whether I was doing physical exercise or not - I sure wouldn't be skipping any meals!
 
:waitasec: IIRC it is 7 children with 5 different women.
When my eyes are clearer I will look for confirmation but either way.... :shakehead:

And TYVM permrod

jmho

That's what Vinnie said. 7 kids with 5 different women.
 
I know only court stuff. It is more a feeling then a theory and one I dont think I can put into words.I will try to highlight why I sorta think he might have be the agreed to fall guy.

Kevin Ortega tells the contract writer about the equipment the DR will need.

He knows this is a request from the doctor he tells the writer that. , uses the Same excuse that Murray later told the contract worker. We know that the reason given was extreme demands on jackson body.
That to me indicates that issue had been talked about between the two ,yet no mentioned in court. If it isnt in court when the talked about that then it is being restricted out or not of value to the prosecution of the defence. IMO Why would a producer question the request of the doctor. It doesnt even sound unreasonable.

Later the meeting at the house involving Ortega , gongaware (i think) and Dr Murry . Murry complains to Ortega about not letting Micheal perform saying Micheal was fine. I do not believe for a second thats what that meeting was about. That meeting was about the fact they were not going to be able to hide Micheals issue of drug addition forever.

The doctor had already mentioned the need for machine on the road because of the demand alledged in court .So Ortega at this meeting should have asked about needing the machine sooner because Micheal was showing signs of trouble which made him concerned. Yet nothing about it is mentioned while he was on the stand

Moving on the the call to the personal assistant and his "setting up stuff" What did Micheal have him set up? Did the personal assisnt help the back door nurse friend set up the drip before? Was this propofol system already in place and thats why it was so back door? Why did Williams have Batteries on him in the security trailer and why did he not testify to that in court? Did he buy a pack when they got the meter? No one keeps batteries arround like that without a need for specifc reason because everything is recharable and these boys were getting paid good money.

Which bring me to the kindergarden medical set up. Murry knew better, requested a medical assistant to be on he contract instead of a nurse. Why not secure your 150,000 a month and get a meter IV eletric fail proof monitor? He could been safe in the event something happen not completely but alot more so then he was.

If it was just careless mistakes I could see but it seems to wreckless ,too haphazard and too backyard. Dr Murray had 4 practices. I bet he owns a few meter IV's with alarms that dont run on AA batteries already.

With Micheals drug addition and weird ticks ,how many of his staff and his production company really thought he would be able to pull off the tour? He couldnt handle rehearsals ,DAILY trips to Dr Kein? While Murray was at his house at night. Murray knew he would get charged he also waited long enough so Micheal could not be revived. He knew the cops would find stuff and was suprized they did not find it faster ,then he told them where it was.


My opinion may change but for now I am suspicous. Think he may have agreed to take the fall for the death of Micheal Jackson. Which still makes him guilty. It just means other people are too.

I've never heard it put like that before.

The assistant arranged anything Michael wanted .Michael couldn't just run out and pick up a good and some coffee. I find the personal assistant completely plausible .
But yeah,I see your point about the others. I don't understand why that would make Dr. Murray a fall guy,though. More like a co-conspiritor in a murder. And they could have done a better job overdosing him with other drugs that didn't implicate the dr.
If murder was the point wouldn't the Dr. be better prepared and not panicked as he was. Instead of being on the phone with his girlfriend he would have been cleaning up the bedroom.
JMO
 
any number of physicians could be sitting in dr. murray's position right now. it is beyond short-sighted not to recognize that.

if people were interested in real justice here, they would demand an investigation of mj's handlers, producers, business team, promotion execs etc...including kenny ortega, frankly....because the undeniable fact is, they were the ones negotiating on mj's behalf, formulating contracts with mj's employees, and therefore, arranging for mj's personal physicians. there is no way in hades that these people were unaware that mj was a drug addict. people here may deny that as much as they like but he was a drug addict and he was like every other drug addict and those who were around him knew it darn well. had any one of them refused to employ a personal physician on behalf of the most charismatic, persuasive drug addict around, mj may well have been forced into treatment. but they didn't.

for them, money was more important than the man.

it seems mj was always, and continues to be, overlooked by those with personal agendas. those here and elsewhere who are going after cm, supposedly in the name of justice for mj, are no different...they simply don't realize, sadly, that they aren't fighting for justice for mj at all. instead, they're buying into exactly what the powers that be are selling them.

cm was not even a goldfish in the pond where mj lived and the la justice system knows this full well....if you doubt that, look at the charges and possible punishment. michael jackson is murdered and the killer "might" get four years? get real, people.
 
The paramedics said MJ's eyes were open and his pupils were dilated which is a sign that the person is deceased. After a person dies, all of their muscles relax so if the eyes are open at the moment of death, they will usually stay that way. Also, if someone had their eyes closed at the moment of death, they will tend to open a short time later due to the relaxation of the muscles that open and close the eyes. This isn't always the case, but for the majority of people, the eyes will be open.

Another article titled, 'The Journey Towards Death, Recognizing the Dying Process'
says the dying process usually begins well before death actually occurs and after reading this article and listening to some of the court proceedings, shouldn't it have been obvious to Dr. Murray that MJ's body was shutting down and preparing to die?

IDK if Dr. Murray was recording MJ's vital signs on a daily basis or paying strict attention to changes in his body but typically the dying process begins one to three months prior to death and 1-2 weeks before death the body has a more difficult time maintaining itself. Typically as a person approaches death, Breathing becomes more irregular and often slower. "Cheyne-Stokes" breathing, rapid breathes followed by periods of no breathing at all, may occur. Congestion in the airway can increase causing loud, rattled breathing.

I was present at two deaths and saw the dying process occur over time in both animals and humans and heard the death rattle so Dr. Murray should have realized MJ was dying long before his heart stopped beating IMO. However in cases where the person's death is "untimely", refusing to accept the fact the person is approaching death is a common reaction.

One to Three Months Prior to Death, the dying person may experience reduced appetite and weight loss as the body begins to slow down. The body doesn't need the energy from food that it once did. The dying person may be sleeping more now and not engaging in activities they once enjoyed. They no longer need the nourishment from food they once did. The body does a wonderful thing during this time as altered body chemistry produces a mild sense of euphoria. They are neither hungry nor thirsty and are not suffering in any way by not eating. It is an expected part of the journey they have begun.

Mental Changes One to Two Weeks Prior to Death:

This is the time during the journey that one begins to sleep most of the time. Disorientation is common and altered senses of perception can be expected. One may experience delusions, such as fearing hidden enemies or feeling invincible.

Physical Changes:

The body is having a more difficult time maintaining itself. There are signs that the body may show during this time:

•The body temperature lowers by a degree or more.
•The blood pressure lowers.
•The pulse becomes irregular and may slow down or speed up.
•There is increased perspiration.
•Skin color changes as circulation becomes diminished. This is often more noticeable in the lips and nail beds as they become pale and bluish.
•Breathing changes occur, often becoming more rapid and labored. Congestion may also occur causing a rattling sound and cough.
•Speaking decreases and eventually stops altogether.

Journey's End: A Couple of Days to Hours Prior to Death:

The person is moving closer towards death. There may be a surge of energy as they get nearer. They may want to get out of bed and talk to loved ones, or ask for food after days of no appetite. This surge of energy may be quite a bit less noticeable but is usually used as a dying person's final physical expression before moving on.

The surge of energy is usually short, and the previous signs become more pronounced as death approaches. Breathing becomes more irregular and often slower. "Cheyne-Stokes" breathing, rapid breathes followed by periods of no breathing at all, may occur. Congestion in the airway can increase causing loud, rattled breathing.

Hands and feet may become blotchy and purplish (mottled). This mottling may slowly work its way up the arms and legs. Lips and nail beds are bluish or purple. The person usually becomes unresponsive and may have their eyes open or semi-open but not seeing their surroundings. It is widely believed that hearing is the last sense to go so it is recommended that loved ones sit with and talk to the dying during this time.

Eventually, breathing will cease altogether and the heart stops. Death has occurred.

http://dying.about.com/od/thedyingprocess/a/process.htm
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Do_eyes_stay_open_after_death#ixzz1ZY5ydOMT
 
Here is a wonderful tribute to Michael Jackson by Paddy, the person Michael Jackson and his children stayed with in Ireland. Hope you enjoy it.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_HhQYSPHIU"]Michael Jackson In Ireland, Interview. - YouTube[/ame]
 
Good post Bozgal. I heard Vinnie today say that Murray only had 5 kids. I thought he had 6 by 7 different women.


Wait... what?? How can you have 6 kids by 7 different women?? ONE of those 7 obviously did not have a child.
 
The paramedics said MJ's eyes were open and his pupils were dilated which is a sign that the person is deceased. After a person dies, all of their muscles relax so if the eyes are open at the moment of death, they will usually stay that way. Also, if someone had their eyes closed at the moment of death, they will tend to open a short time later due to the relaxation of the muscles that open and close the eyes. This isn't always the case, but for the majority of people, the eyes will be open.

Another article titled, 'The Journey Towards Death, Recognizing the Dying Process'
says the dying process usually begins well before death actually occurs and after reading this article and listening to some of the court proceedings, shouldn't it have been obvious to Dr. Murray that MJ's body was shutting down and preparing to die?

(respectfully snipped for space)
BBM

Doesn't this more appropriately describe someone dying from natural causes or a prolonged illness? MJ didn't have any major medical problems, nor was he aged, therefore wouldn't his death be more like someone who suffers a fatal traumatic injury, for example, and is sent into cardiac arrest? In other words, prior to the administration of the anesthesia, he was a (for the most part) healthy, active 50 y/o man.

I am in no way, however, defending Dr. Murray or his actions.

MOO
 
Hello WS friends..I have indeed been following this trial..and find it very difficult to voice my thoughts..especially when I hear the blame game..Im sorry..but I was never a MJ Fan..tho did like some his tunes..and fully realize his history and drug addictions..BUT first and foremost I am a HC giver..Front Line, Trauma, ER, Intensive type RN..and for a supposed Cardiologist who even thought of using Propofol in a home setting without medical equipement and staff to do what he did is "OFF THE CHARTS" Negligent and Malpractice..Not to mention, Conrad Murray was NOT a newbie..HE knew exactly what he DID NOT KNOW..yet still went ahead and used a drug(+other drugs in combo) NOT having required supports...

The fact he had forknowledge and knew the risks..is to me Total disregard for human life (whether MJ's or anyone) tho didnt CARE cause his friend wanted it!!..Not te mention the 1.8 million a year coming...$$$

Im sorry..this case has my blood boiling where CM is concerned..and for me Involuntary Manslaughter is far too little ( I believe 2nd degree) But some bloggings seem to indicate and obscure facts and replace things with MJ druggy..paying for drugs..etcc..etc....and Yep CM in his incompetence got caught with pants down..a Competent Physician would NOT have...

CM should go to jail!! but Most important..Lose his friggen licence to practice medicine ever again..

First and last post on this subject..just voicing my opinion..views..Hope there's Justice :twocents:
 

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