Decomp smell **REVISIT**

[Bev]

I don't know. My assumption would be that since it is an accumulative event, that the calcium : magnesium would concentrate on each degree day. Based on the percentage of weight of calcium and magnesium in the human body, the calcium : magnesium would be 30 : 1 on day one of the event and then concentrate to 5 : 1 on day ninety. Now I don't know if the 30 : 1 is correct, it is a conjecture on my part but obviously, the ratio would be more concentrated on day 2 and then on day 3, etc. Whether the body has to be in direct contact with the surface I have no idea - it may not, because we have no idea as to how that stain got there - was it a leak, was it direct contact, was it a spill, was it secondary transfer? I just do not have that information.

I'm making an educated guess that the body was probably wrapped in a blanket or towel, the towel or blanket was in direct contact with the trunk floor and fluids leaked through to the carpet - because of compression, the fluids were pushed through the carpet to the trunk liner where they continued to decay causing the odour to grow stronger over time. In those fluids, the concentration of calcium to magnesium was such that they were able to determine that the body, not the fluids produced by the body, but the body itself was in the car for approx. 2.6 days.

Again, whether or not temp actually does have an effect on the calcium : magnesium, I don't know, I would think that it would because temp affects all aspects of decomp. I was conjecturing that if temp did affect it, then the temp cited by the report was off by around 3 degrees.

Another thought - what would be the point of removing the body after 2.6 days, putting it someplace and then putting it back in the trunk? Anyone is going to want to get rid of the body as quickly as possible. We're overthinking this, in my opinion - we're not talking about a complicated person here, we're talking about someone whose sole concern is for herself. Also, getting rid of a body is not really a mind bender in Florida - gators, woods, waterways and lakes - it takes one minute to walk from the car into the woods, drop a body and walk out. No one is going to want to linger and run the risk of getting caught unless it is someone who has a fetish or a wish to get caught.

 

[Pattymarie]

I recently smelled human decomposition in the hallway of a funeral home. A place that is designed to mask this smell and it still seeped through. It was horrendous. I couldn't keep from gagging. There was no denying it. None. Thankfully, the smell was abated in the viewing area and we could continue paying our respects. As I left, all I could think about was that the whole A family...GA, CA and LA, who all smelled this odor KNOW Caylee is dead. This was before they cleaned the car. If I could become sick at sanitized human decomposition, imagine what they had to smell.

On top of that, add all the other people (LE, Tow car guy) who smelled it, plus the tests and the dogs. Everyone knows she is gone. Even, the A family. All we got going on now, is the mind's peculiar way of dealing with a horrible, unspeakable tragedy...as GA said, "if I lost my granddaughter, I've lost my daughter, too." Case closed.

 

[panthera]

I don't know. My assumption would be that since it is an accumulative event, that the calcium : magnesium would concentrate on each degree day. Based on the percentage of weight of calcium and magnesium in the human body, the calcium : magnesium would be 30 : 1 on day one of the event and then concentrate to 5 : 1 on day ninety. Now I don't know if the 30 : 1 is correct, it is a conjecture on my part but obviously, the ratio would be more concentrated on day 2 and then on day 3, etc. Whether the body has to be in direct contact with the surface I have no idea - it may not, because we have no idea as to how that stain got there - was it a leak, was it direct contact, was it a spill, was it secondary transfer? I just do not have that information.

I'm making an educated guess that the body was probably wrapped in a blanket or towel, the towel or blanket was in direct contact with the trunk floor and fluids leaked through to the carpet - because of compression, the fluids were pushed through the carpet to the trunk liner where they continued to decay causing the odour to grow stronger over time. In those fluids, the concentration of calcium to magnesium was such that they were able to determine that the body, not the fluids produced by the body, but the body itself was in the car for approx. 2.6 days.

Again, whether or not temp actually does have an effect on the calcium : magnesium, I don't know, I would think that it would because temp affects all aspects of decomp. I was conjecturing that if temp did affect it, then the temp cited by the report was off by around 3 degrees.

Another thought - what would be the point of removing the body after 2.6 days, putting it someplace and then putting it back in the trunk? Anyone is going to want to get rid of the body as quickly as possible. We're overthinking this, in my opinion - we're not talking about a complicated person here, we're talking about someone whose sole concern is for herself. Also, getting rid of a body is not really a mind bender in Florida - gators, woods, waterways and lakes - it takes one minute to walk from the car into the woods, drop a body and walk out. No one is going to want to linger and run the risk of getting caught unless it is someone who has a fetish or a wish to get caught.

Your very detailed explanation is much appreciated. Even though the 2.6 days was reported, I had thought it could be the minimum time her body had been in the trunk. So, correct me if I'm wrong, but this means her body was in the trunk for no more than 2.6 days? That would mean if Caylee died on 6/16, then either Casey had her some place else and moved her at a later date, or she would've disposed of her by 6/19? And yet the car still reeked on 7/15 when George picked it up from the tow yard? I do realize it had been sealed for over two weeks, but I always thought the body was removed closer to the time that Casey abandoned the car on the 27th. Sorry, but I'm still somewhat confused.

 

[Bev]

The car still reeked because the odour was coming from beneath the carpet, not the body. The stain leaked from the carpet fibers into the backing and then on to the trunk liner. Think of it this way - a kiddie pees in his bed and his mom changes the sheet but not the mattress pad - it will still stink of pee because it has soaked in the pad too.

 

[JWG]

As I understand the chemistry, the 5:1 ratio occurs after 90 ADD of decomposition - regardless of whether it is in a trunk or outside under a tree.

If the body had been outside for 90 ADD then placed in the trunk, and fluids or other material from the body leaked onto the carpet, the 5:1 ratio would have been left behind. The same is true if the body had been in the trunk the entire 90 ADD.

All we can be sure of is that after 90 ADD the body leaked in the trunk. It could have been in there longer, but if it had been, it did not leak again. LP's theory that it leaked after having been in the trunk 10 days is incorrect, unless it leaked outside the trunk.

 

[Bev]

JWG, hit the edit button! (after 90 ADD the body leaked in the trunk...)

 

[panthera]

The car still reeked because the odour was coming from beneath the carpet, not the body. The stain leaked from the carpet fibers into the backing and then on to the trunk liner. Think of it this way - a kiddie pees in his bed and his mom changes the sheet but not the mattress pad - it will still stink of pee because it has soaked in the pad too.

OK, I'm catching on now. Only this smell would be much worse than in your example, correct? And with the car being sealed in the hot sun, and no ventilation, it would engulf the entire car even though it originates in the trunk, correct? Not to be o/t, but the only experience I have with something along these lines is a business I worked in where a rat had gotten under an enclosed sink in the break-room (through an unfinished wall behind the sink), and died. It smelled up the entire area because no one knew it was in there for a while.

 

[SailorMoon]

I've been meaning to ask this question: why would human decomp smell any different than the decomp of an animal of similar size? Specifically, a "mammal" of similar size to humans? We are mammals too, so I don't quite see why human decomp smell would differ particularly from that of another mammal.

***Would Really Like An Answer if Anyone Knows***

I've asked this and would like to know as well. Thanks.

 

[panthera]

As I understand the chemistry, the 5:1 ratio occurs after 90 ADD of decomposition - regardless of whether it is in a trunk or outside under a tree.

If the body had been outside for 90 ADD then placed in the trunk, and fluids or other material from the body leaked onto the carpet, the 5:1 ratio would have been left behind. The same is true if the body had been in the trunk the entire 90 ADD.

All we can be sure of is that after 90 ADD of decomposition the body leaked in the trunk. It could have been in there longer, but if it had been, it did not leak again. LP's theory that it leaked after having been in the trunk 10 days is incorrect, unless it leaked outside the trunk.

Given the ambient temperature and Caylee's size, how long would it have taken for her body's fluids to dry up, or would that depend what she was in, such as a garbage bag as opposed to a blanket or canvas bag?

 

[panthera]

I've asked this and would like to know as well. Thanks.

I would too! In other words why would a 35 lb. dog smell different than a 35 lb. Caylee?

 

[JWG]

I've asked this and would like to know as well. Thanks.

Our chemistry is different. A dead squirrel smells different than a dead woodchuck. They both smell awful, but different.

 

[panthera]

Our chemistry is different. A dead squirrel smells different than a dead woodchuck. They both smell awful, but different.

Thank you!

 

[BondJamesBond]

Thanks, Bev/JWG. Tells me what I needed to know. Appreciate your patience!

 

[Advocate4]

Our chemistry is different. A dead squirrel smells different than a dead woodchuck. They both smell awful, but different.

Hmmm ... well, I have never smelled a dead human (other than very recently dead), but I have smelled a lot (a LOT) of dead animals in various stages of decomp, and frankly they all smelled basically the same other than the larger ones smelled MORE than the small ones. Not to be gross about it, but "meat" is "meat", isn't it? There might possibly be some difference between animals that only eat vegetable matter and those that eat meat (as well as veg matter), but can't say my nose has differentiated.

Not trying to argue, just really not so sure about humans smelling differently. At least, to our own noses -- I do believe that cadaver dogs can smell a difference.

 

[Eulalie]

Hmmm ... well, I have never smelled a dead human (other than very recently dead), but I have smelled a lot (a LOT) of dead animals in various stages of decomp, and frankly they all smelled basically the same other than the larger ones smelled MORE than the small ones. Not to be gross about it, but "meat" is "meat", isn't it? There might possibly be some difference between animals that only eat vegetable matter and those that eat meat (as well as veg matter), but can't say my nose has differentiated.

Not trying to argue, just really not so sure about humans smelling differently. At least, to our own noses -- I do believe that cadaver dogs can smell a difference.

I'm not an expert, but I would guess that we're built to abhor the smell of decomp because in nature it's a warning that conditions may be dangerous. If that's true, it makes sense to me that human remains would smell distinct and especially foul to other humans (i.e., it's an urgent warning that something in the area is unsafe).

 

[kgeaux]

Our chemistry is different. A dead squirrel smells different than a dead woodchuck. They both smell awful, but different.

I believe you, I'm not questioning you. But when I smell a dead animal, I can't tell if it's a squirrel, cat, dog or rat. They all smell pretty much the same to me: HORRIBLE!! Do you think most people would be able to tell the difference between the smells of a dead squirrel and a dead chipmonk? I know everyone who has smelled human decomp. says it's totally different, forever recognizable. I've been to a funeral where the body was held for weeks and weeks and hadn't been prepared properly----there was a definite odor.....but I'm not sure I would recognize it again. (I do have an extremely unreliable sense of smell!)

 

[magic-cat]

Hmmm ... well, I have never smelled a dead human (other than very recently dead), but I have smelled a lot (a LOT) of dead animals in various stages of decomp, and frankly they all smelled basically the same other than the larger ones smelled MORE than the small ones. Not to be gross about it, but "meat" is "meat", isn't it? There might possibly be some difference between animals that only eat vegetable matter and those that eat meat (as well as veg matter), but can't say my nose has differentiated.

Not trying to argue, just really not so sure about humans smelling differently. At least, to our own noses -- I do believe that cadaver dogs can smell a difference.

Read this thread and you may change your mind... Even my 17 year old, who smelled dead human cadavers in a lab at a college said the scent was unmistakable for anything else. She said it even overpowered the chemicals preserving the cadavers. Many here who have smelled it have verified and substantiated THIS fact very well.

 

[magic-cat]

The car was locked? Where did I hear that Casey had left her purse sitting on the seat and the car was unlocked (i.e. the theory that she was tempting someone to steal the car)? Anyone remember where that info came from?

The "purse" was not her REAL purse that had her wallet etc in it, it was more of a here are a few odds and ends cosmetics items that I can live without and am going to leave here. The car was locked up tight, so there was no way anyone was going to steal it unless they broke the window-which very well may have been the motivation to leave A purse in plain sight.

 

[magic-cat]

I've asked this and would like to know as well. Thanks.

It would smell different for the same reason that various meats taste different-because they are different. Chicken and steak do not smell the same when cooking, and neither do they when rotting. I have a super-sniffer, and can smell even the faintest of odors (almost like a darn dog! lol) and I detect differences in the smells of meat all the time. I cook often as well, as I have a large famikly and will admit we do not always get our supper dishes done until the next day. I can smell the difference of what is on the dishes.

 

[magic-cat]

I would too! In other words why would a 35 lb. dog smell different than a 35 lb. Caylee?

Because we ARE different. A dead dog smells like a dead dog and a dead human, from what I can determine, smells like a dead human, or as my daughter keeps correcting me, a cadaver-she says they are no longer humans but have transformed into cadavers, which is what we as humans become at death. She says it is life that makes us human and it is death that makes us cadavers.