Details Emerge: Casey/Cindy Fight - Part 2

[TallyHo]

Bond, do you think it is significant that Jessie's wording for the reason for the fight was "Casey not being home alot and not bringing Caylee by". The "not bringing Caylee by" sort of makes me think that maybe the first fight (on the 7th??) was about Casey's absentee mothering style and moved on to include "not bringing Caylee by" on the 15th. Because earlier than that time frame, Caylee was pretty much with George and Cindy most of the time.

 

[BondJamesBond]

Bond, do you think it is significant that Jessie's wording for the reason for the fight was "Casey not being home alot and not bringing Caylee by". The "not bringing Caylee by" sort of makes me think that maybe the first fight (on the 7th??) was about Casey's absentee mothering style and moved on to include "not bringing Caylee by" on the 15th. Because earlier than that time frame, Caylee was pretty much with George and Cindy most of the time.

Tally, I'm torn on the issue.

For the longest time I've been resigned to see it almost exactly as you describe. Then, Devon kinda threw a monkey wrench in there for me recalling that Ricardo indicated Caylee stayed the nights there sometimes - which would have been ~Feb-Apr '08, IIRC. Soo....I dunno for sure.

IBY did an elaborate job providing details on the thread, so I'm not doing it justice...but, seems like we can assert 6/2 (Cindy on vacation) and 6/7 were def'n Caylee-keep-away instances that would've stuck w/ Cindy. I speculated on the 6/10-6/14 thread this may have happened some during these nights too (utilizing Lee's house)...although its very difficult to prove. So...more on intuition than anything else I'm kinda partial to the 'kept Caylee' situation escalating fast.

Per earlier post...Casey was already up to something at the end of May before she met Tony L. She IM'd Tony R. about an upcoming 3-week vacation (ending 6/15 by count which would've been pre-PR), and had apparently been posting almost manically on her Facebook account. When Tony R. asked her about the Fb comments she indicated that she'd decided she was gonna starting looking out more for "numero uno". It was around this time she & Ricardo were already falling apart. Then...along comes Tony L...All of that to say...Casey's was making a concerted effort to (re)gain her independence during this period...which we see in so many out-into-the-wee-hours nights during early June. I kinda think the Caylee-keep-away was in response to Cindy giving Casey a hard time 'bout staying out...IOW...payback. And, as Casey knew, it was THE perfect way to push Cindy's buttons. Hope that makes sense.

Rambling...but one additional thought. I always try to keep in mind these statements are being made AFTER it all went down. IOW...IMHO, it would be very hard NOT to insert some cause-and-effect stuff AFTER-the-fact IYKWIM. Since Caylee had obviously been 'away' from Cindy post-6/15 when Jesse is getting this account from Lee...well..the 'keep-away' stuff was certainly more pressing @ the time of the tale being told...potentially inverting - if not altogether inserting - the importance of 'keep away' vs. absentee-Casey when compared to how it might've actually been on 6/15.

 

[BondJamesBond]

Kind of a different direction for the "fight" thread...so I'll post on the Theories thread, but, something that kinda sits in the back of my mind (a scary place to be ) is...

a) Cindy stated that she took Caylee into the pool everyday of her vacation (ended 6/8)
b) Cindy allegedly had Caylee in the pool 6/15
c) Casey took Caylee to hang @ Tony's pool 6/2
d) Casey headed outta G&C's ~4:11PM when Caylee would've just awoken from her nap
e) Caylee's shoes weren't found with her
f) Casey's pings place her in the area of Gentiva-to-Tony's-to-JB Park before she shows up @ Tony's apartment that evening w/o an alive Caylee
g) Having a toddler in a pool is an ALL-ATTENTION-CONSUMING activity...not exactly Casey's forte in early June

Was Caylee fussing 6/16 ~4PM after she woke up from her nap about wanting to go swimming?

Pertinent to the subject of this thread...Was Casey p'd @ Cindy 6/15PM about having Caylee in the pool 'cause it just reinforced an activity that she wouldn't have wanted to encourage...owing to the attention it would require from Casey when Cindy wasn't around...[read Caylee-fit-inducing subject].

OK...all secondary to the reasons already stated for sparking fights...and really belonging more on the Theories thread....but wondering if a stop in JBPark 6/16 might've been a failed attempt to appease I-wanna-swim! Caylee...:waitasec:

 

[ibyoungr]

Kind of a different direction for the "fight" thread...so I'll post on the Theories thread, but, something that kinda sits in the back of my mind (a scary place to be ) is...

a) Cindy stated that she took Caylee into the pool everyday of her vacation (ended 6/8)
b) Cindy allegedly had Caylee in the pool 6/15
c) Casey took Caylee to hang @ Tony's pool 6/2
d) Casey headed outta G&C's ~4:11PM when Caylee would've just awoken from her nap
e) Caylee's shoes weren't found with her
f) Casey's pings place her in the area of Gentiva-to-Tony's-to-JB Park before she shows up @ Tony's apartment that evening w/o an alive Caylee
g) Having a toddler in a pool is an ALL-ATTENTION-CONSUMING activity...not exactly Casey's forte in early June

Was Caylee fussing 6/16 ~4PM after she woke up from her nap about wanting to go swimming?

Pertinent to the subject of this thread...Was Casey p'd @ Cindy 6/15PM about having Caylee in the pool 'cause it just reinforced an activity that she wouldn't have wanted to encourage...owing to the attention it would require from Casey when Cindy wasn't around...[read Caylee-fit-inducing subject].

OK...all secondary to the reasons already stated for sparking fights...and really belonging more on the Theories thread....but wondering if a stop in JBPark 6/16 might've been a failed attempt to appease I-wanna-swim! Caylee...:waitasec:

I do think Caylee waking up for her nap and wanting to swim was pizzing Casey off.. I have thought that from my first real theory.
Once difference is, I think Casey had a deep rooted feeling of not really wanting to be a mom and the buildup with the money source drying up, fights with Cindy, getting kicked out, Amy's pressure about getting a place together, wanting to be with Tony, dumping Ric, and still hanging on to Jesse.... Caylee woke up whiny and wanted to go swimming and with the thunderstorm outside.. everything erupted and Caylee took the brunt of it all. After it was over, Casey felt relieved because she was now free and she figured her lies about the kidnapping nanny would work because all of her other lies worked.
I think we are trying to attribute it to 1 thing. It could be ALL of these things caused Caylee's death.

If she would have taken her to the park to swim to appease Caylee... wouldn't someone have noticed?

 

[TallyHo]

Just had to say this after watching that LKL interview last night - this is a really important thread!!!!! Because 2 of the things that Cindy lied about and tried to gloss over were 1) Casey's mothering skills 2) Casey's partying skills. And specifically stated that because #1 was so great and #2 was so minimal that there was "NO MOTIVE". Sleuth on, peeps!!

ETA- Just heard the part in the interview where she tells Larry King that the reason Casey lied about her lack of employment was "maybe to be with Caylee more"!!!??? There are no words...

 

[Woe.be.gone]

ETA- Just heard the part in the interview where she tells Larry King that the reason Casey lied about her lack of employment was "maybe to be with Caylee more"!!!??? There are no words...

......Welcome to the Twilight Zone.......

 

[ibyoungr]

I have noticed up above.. I left out May 29th -31st in the links above.

This info also has become useful in the Accountability of Caylee thread in the Resource links.
So. I posted the info over there as well.
From May 23rd - June 5th. (added BJB info about the chats on the 23rd)

Here are the links.
May 23rd-May31st First meet Tony, ABC Party, 29th and 30th at Ric's Click here

June 1st Day with Tony BBQ at Arden Villages Click here

June 2nd Casey and Caylee spend day at Tony's Click here

June 3 Casey stays close to home Click here

June 4th Party for Troy at Voyage Click here

June 5th Cindy's 50th Birthday Click here

Still working on the 6th and 7th

June 6th is done..

June 6th is done... and posted in the Accountability of Caylee thread

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3696785&postcount=49"]June 6th [/ame]

Another note to add to May 23-May 31st
Tony R... states he had sex with Casey at the end of May....
Source Tony R interview August 18th with Det Allen and Melich

Page 616 (OCSO #)

She tells AR that she works from home all the time.

And the best part.. When they went out.. who paid?

He states: "I always *advertiser censored***ing paid." LOL....

 

[TallyHo]

I just noticed in Chris S's interview that Casey and Caylee spent the night at his house on May 17th (his parents were out of town). It's a few days earlier than the time frame that we've been looking at, but it is interesting that she seemed to be looking for ways to get out of that house. She sure wasn't providing Caylee with much stability.

 

[Searchfortruth]

I really do wonder about this. If she knows now that Lee will not testify to this account now, then she can scream to high heaven (which she did in court) that there was no fight. Lord knows Casey will never admit to it either!! Too close to "motive"!!

Thankfully we have the interview's of Jesse G., Cindy's supervisor's and co worker's, Annie (she can testify that the fight's were ongoing and chronic), and maybe the neighor's that overheard said fight's. I believe the family will be ruled not credible by the jury, if they give the same story we have heard in the deposition's.

 

[Searchfortruth]

Bond, do you think it is significant that Jessie's wording for the reason for the fight was "Casey not being home alot and not bringing Caylee by". The "not bringing Caylee by" sort of makes me think that maybe the first fight (on the 7th??) was about Casey's absentee mothering style and moved on to include "not bringing Caylee by" on the 15th. Because earlier than that time frame, Caylee was pretty much with George and Cindy most of the time.

I just went over that part of Jesse's interview again, and I wonder if Lee did feed this story to Jesse because it's the one they wanted told to LE, they knew or had a good feeling Jesse was talking to the police. Since the "fight" story was already out by then maybe the A's thought they would tweak it to their advantage. The "not bringing Caylee by" just doesn't pass the reason test. Cindy came back from her vacation, the first week in June, complaining to co-workers because she had Caylee the whole time and Casey was hardly ever there. We know from Casey's other friends that Cindy would call Casey at night when she was out to summons her home for Caylee. I just think the story Lee gave Jesse may have been the version they wanted out there...they have tried so hard to stay away from, "we were fighting because Casey was not mothering Caylee"...

 

[SUZGUZ]

I think Caylee was spending alot of time in Casey's company prior to the 15th. Cindy told Casey she wanted Caylee there on the 15th to go with her to Mt. Dora. Casey was late getting there, causing Cindy to be late leaving for Mt. Dora. I believe on the ride, Cindy was chatting with Caylee and finding out information about where they had been staying and things that were happening in Caylee's presence. Caylee was starting to communicate more clearly and believably. I think that's when Cindy decided enough. Get custody and kick the real problem out. Probably, you want to be with your boyfriends, go, the baby is staying here. Then while in Mt. Dora she found out about the money and could hardly wait to get back to Orlando. Casey came home, showed no interest as usual, Cindy approached about the money, Casey denied, Cindy mentioned things that Caylee had told her on the trip, Casey denied, Cindy said get out and the baby is staying here, Casey said she is mine and I would rather see her dead than with you, Cindy chokes Casey, Casey and Caylee left the next day, Casey told Caylee "you have a big mouth, telling Grandma everything we do and I'm going to shut it once and for all". And here we are today.

 

[fortytwo]

I think Caylee was spending alot of time in Casey's company prior to the 15th. Cindy told Casey she wanted Caylee there on the 15th to go with her to Mt. Dora. Casey was late getting there, causing Cindy to be late leaving for Mt. Dora. I believe on the ride, Cindy was chatting with Caylee and finding out information about where they had been staying and things that were happening in Caylee's presence. Caylee was starting to communicate more clearly and believably. I think that's when Cindy decided enough. Get custody and kick the real problem out. Probably, you want to be with your boyfriends, go, the baby is staying here. Then while in Mt. Dora she found out about the money and could hardly wait to get back to Orlando. Casey came home, showed no interest as usual, Cindy approached about the money, Casey denied, Cindy mentioned things that Caylee had told her on the trip, Casey denied, Cindy said get out and the baby is staying here, Casey said she is mine and I would rather see her dead than with you, Cindy chokes Casey, Casey and Caylee left the next day, Casey told Caylee "you have a big mouth, telling Grandma everything we do and I'm going to shut it once and for all". And here we are today.

This is Mrs. fortytwo's hypothesis, nearly verbatim. (She says I should point out that "Great minds think alike.")

Her suggestion is that it explains as well the symbolism of the duct tape, with the heart sticker a "There! Now I love you." sort of final gesture.

I can think of nothing which contradicts the idea.

I'd like to point out, although it really isn't all that significant, that Mrs. fortytwo is not, herself, a parent, and has a slightly different perspective on children and parenting than those of us who are. In spite of that, or perhaps because of it, she very early on brought up the idea that Caylee was at the age when kids start getting more verbal, and that Casey lost it because she was blowing the cover stories.

 

[sayd]

I think Caylee was spending alot of time in Casey's company prior to the 15th. Cindy told Casey she wanted Caylee there on the 15th to go with her to Mt. Dora. Casey was late getting there, causing Cindy to be late leaving for Mt. Dora. I believe on the ride, Cindy was chatting with Caylee and finding out information about where they had been staying and things that were happening in Caylee's presence. Caylee was starting to communicate more clearly and believably. I think that's when Cindy decided enough. Get custody and kick the real problem out. Probably, you want to be with your boyfriends, go, the baby is staying here. Then while in Mt. Dora she found out about the money and could hardly wait to get back to Orlando. Casey came home, showed no interest as usual, Cindy approached about the money, Casey denied, Cindy mentioned things that Caylee had told her on the trip, Casey denied, Cindy said get out and the baby is staying here, Casey said she is mine and I would rather see her dead than with you, Cindy chokes Casey, Casey and Caylee left the next day, Casey told Caylee "you have a big mouth, telling Grandma everything we do and I'm going to shut it once and for all". And here we are today.

That's exactly what I have thought happened from the time we found out about the duct tape. I think you are right on the money.

 

[BondJamesBond]

I think Caylee was spending alot of time in Casey's company prior to the 15th. Cindy told Casey she wanted Caylee there on the 15th to go with her to Mt. Dora. Casey was late getting there, causing Cindy to be late leaving for Mt. Dora. I believe on the ride, Cindy was chatting with Caylee and finding out information about where they had been staying and things that were happening in Caylee's presence. Caylee was starting to communicate more clearly and believably. I think that's when Cindy decided enough. Get custody and kick the real problem out. Probably, you want to be with your boyfriends, go, the baby is staying here. Then while in Mt. Dora she found out about the money and could hardly wait to get back to Orlando. Casey came home, showed no interest as usual, Cindy approached about the money, Casey denied, Cindy mentioned things that Caylee had told her on the trip, Casey denied, Cindy said get out and the baby is staying here, Casey said she is mine and I would rather see her dead than with you, Cindy chokes Casey, Casey and Caylee left the next day, Casey told Caylee "you have a big mouth, telling Grandma everything we do and I'm going to shut it once and for all". And here we are today.

*bold by me*

FWIW, consider that Casey's pings support that she was @ G&C's overnight 6/14PM-6/15AM, hence, not following the 'Casey was late getting there' aspect. Maybe nothing, just FYI.

Bumped the following to suggest that one of the two altercations between Cindy & Casey witnessed by neighbor Jean C. fits the Sunday 6/15 ~9AM driveway conditions as Casey left for Tony's and Cindy & Caylee left for Mt. Dora. Just adding to how the day possibly got off to a bad start.

Updating recap to-date & attempting to summarize to incorporate info from Jesse's interview provided by TallyHo, w/ special thanks to IBY and Devon for some terrific work (much, much more detail provided esp. by IBY if you read back through this thread regarding other potential arguments, FYI) :highfive:.

Sleuthed as best candidate-dates & times, IMHO, for the Jean C. accounted Casey-Cindy incidents and THE Lee=>Jesse-described "fight":

• Saturday, 6/7 9:11AM: Cindy & Casey headed outside as Casey shouted @ Cindy before Cindy & George left for the beach. IMHO, this best fits the Casey-went-for-a-jog-afterward incident witnessed by Jean C.. Jean C. was mowing or washing car. Casey took Caylee for the afternoon (to Tony's) & night (to Ricardo's) before Cindy & George returned home in the afternoon.
  
• Sunday, 6/15: 8:56AM Cindy & Casey headed outside as Casey shouted @ Cindy. Casey headed to Tony's and Cindy & Caylee left for Mt. Dora a few minutes later. IMHO, this best fits the Casey-drive-away incident witnessed by Jean C. Jean C. was mowing or washing car.
  
• Sunday, 6/15: 9:26-10:05PM Cindy & Casey argue over Casey's absentee-mom performance. This turns physical (apparently per Cindy's account :waitasec and becomes THE "choking" fight we hear about (through Jesse) as the one Cindy confided in Lee having precipitated Casey's running off.

The Sunday evening timing is a period of cell inactivity on Casey's phone that, IMHO, would've likely had:

• Caylee in bed after her swim w/ Cindy & long day @ Mt. Dora
• George still @ work
• the argument happening @ night
• the argument on the heels of Casey's all-day-@-Tony's and delayed return home behavior (added to several priors) w/ Caylee in Cindy's care
• the intensity of the argument escalating as it may have simply picked up where the argument of the morning left off...with tensions not truly fading through the course of the day

I tried to examine if the "choking" fight could've happened post-6/15. I can line up a very good opportunity...except...Casey wasn't 'round G&C's @ night post-6/15.

 

[Ripley007]

I think Caylee was spending alot of time in Casey's company prior to the 15th. Cindy told Casey she wanted Caylee there on the 15th to go with her to Mt. Dora. Casey was late getting there, causing Cindy to be late leaving for Mt. Dora. I believe on the ride, Cindy was chatting with Caylee and finding out information about where they had been staying and things that were happening in Caylee's presence. Caylee was starting to communicate more clearly and believably. I think that's when Cindy decided enough. Get custody and kick the real problem out. Probably, you want to be with your boyfriends, go, the baby is staying here. Then while in Mt. Dora she found out about the money and could hardly wait to get back to Orlando. Casey came home, showed no interest as usual, Cindy approached about the money, Casey denied, Cindy mentioned things that Caylee had told her on the trip, Casey denied, Cindy said get out and the baby is staying here, Casey said she is mine and I would rather see her dead than with you, Cindy chokes Casey, Casey and Caylee left the next day, Casey told Caylee "you have a big mouth, telling Grandma everything we do and I'm going to shut it once and for all". And here we are today.

I agree with everything till the point where you surmise that "Casey and Caylee left the next day". I believe KC killed Caylee Before the sun came up on June 16, 2008. GA's 16th story-Hogwash!

 

[TinaD]

Firstly, if this has already been raised and discussed, please eaccept my apologies. I've searched and not found anything, but mods, please remove this if I am going over old ground.

There is considerable speculation that there was a humdinger of a fight on the evening of the 15th June between KC and Cindy. Caylee disappeared the following day. There has also been speculation that a motive for KC to do away with Caylee was because she was getting old enough to speak and could blow the whistle on her mother's actions.

What if that is exactly what happened on the 15th? Cindy had Caylee to herself all day. What if Caylee said something which made Cindy realise that KC had been lying big time (could be any of a number of subjects - her "job", the nanny etc). Cindy confronts KC about it, a fight ensues, and KC decides to get rid of the "tattletale"?

And maybe George said somehting about it to the GJ?

Just a thought,

 

[Anniegirl]

Firstly, if this has already been raised and discussed, please eaccept my apologies. I've searched and not found anything, but mods, please remove this if I am going over old ground.

There is considerable speculation that there was a humdinger of a fight on the evening of the 15th June between KC and Cindy. Caylee disappeared the following day. There has also been speculation that a motive for KC to do away with Caylee was because she was getting old enough to speak and could blow the whistle on her mother's actions.

What if that is exactly what happened on the 15th? Cindy had Caylee to herself all day. What if Caylee said something which made Cindy realise that KC had been lying big time (could be any of a number of subjects - her "job", the nanny etc). Cindy confronts KC about it, a fight ensues, and KC decides to get rid of the "tattletale"?

And maybe George said somehting about it to the GJ?

Just a thought,

You hit on a good point-- something about that fight and her new BF who didnt want kids around made Casey see Caylee as trouble. ( makes me feel bad to say that..poor baby!) i think Casey was ful of rage and spitefullness when she murdered Caylee in was pure evil and spiteful b**** ( admitting herself) that she snuffed out Caylee's little life to really show Cindy.

She will have the rest of her young, young life to think evil ness now.

 

[Just Jayla]

I think there was definately a fight, the neighbors attest to one that was not on the 15th, and I believe another neighbor did not remember the date....

Also, LP said the fight between GA and KC when TM was in the house could be heard accross the street by the media, so we know their walls are thin or windows are open!

Give me a bit, I will look for LE/media links re: the neighbors, but there might be a thread on this already...


ETA: Here is a link of sorts-Scroll down to Jean Couty

http://www.cfnews13.com/Features/CaseyAnthony/KeyPlayers/Witnesses.aspx

 

[Cowpattydaddy]

There is a nice long thred in the Resoure links sticky, titled "Details Emerge Casey/Cindy Fight - Part Deux"
Serious sleuths put together some really dandy stuff...I am still in awe..

 

[ZsaZsa]

I think Caylee was spending alot of time in Casey's company prior to the 15th. Cindy told Casey she wanted Caylee there on the 15th to go with her to Mt. Dora. Casey was late getting there, causing Cindy to be late leaving for Mt. Dora. I believe on the ride, Cindy was chatting with Caylee and finding out information about where they had been staying and things that were happening in Caylee's presence. Caylee was starting to communicate more clearly and believably. I think that's when Cindy decided enough. Get custody and kick the real problem out. Probably, you want to be with your boyfriends, go, the baby is staying here. Then while in Mt. Dora she found out about the money and could hardly wait to get back to Orlando. Casey came home, showed no interest as usual, Cindy approached about the money, Casey denied, Cindy mentioned things that Caylee had told her on the trip, Casey denied, Cindy said get out and the baby is staying here, Casey said she is mine and I would rather see her dead than with you, Cindy chokes Casey, Casey and Caylee left the next day, Casey told Caylee "you have a big mouth, telling Grandma everything we do and I'm going to shut it once and for all". And here we are today.

That scenario is extremely believable. It just sounds like her/them.