Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #5

[BuzzieCat]

My primary problem with this is that I can't see society having to spend what could be millions of dollars to sustain the body of a person who has been pronounced brain dead by 6 experts when there are living people out there who could be healed or at least palliated by proper medical care, yet they don't get it because of money and insurance issues.

I have no doubt that Jahi's family is devastated and shocked by what has occurred and of course they are. However, I don't feel that they have the right to go to such extremes to put off the inevitable. There has got to be some other kind of mental health treatment that would be more effective than this. People suffer all kinds of devastating losses, but society doesn't usually move heaven and earth to give them the illusion that their loss hasn't occurred. That's what this is, an illusion.

 

[Sedonia Sunset]

:yes: I specifically recall him saying at the PC yesterday, that "she smiled as she left CHO". .

I guess he misconstrued that.

He said he THOUGHT he saw her smile. It's hard to say if he meant that he really DID think she smiled or if he meant that he felt that the "locked in" Jahi was probably smiling in her (now non-existent) mind.

 

[Elley Mae]

Don't have a link handy but I know I've read that several times. Anyone else have a link handy?

Back on the first thread, iirc. I remember reading that too.

 

[thistle]

I completely agree and also feel that the dignity that Jahi deserves is tarnished by comments against her mother. Jahi most likely loved her mother and would trust decisions her mother might have to make for her. I am not going to consider comments made by the uncle or attorney. It is all about Jahi and her mother now. I am all for giving the mother the time she needs since it will all end too soon for her anyway.

I have empathy for her mother, but when her mother is posting on twitter (in response to her brother giving her a star for 'best mom')- 'I would personally like to tell Children's Hospital & all the negative people in the world to kiss my entire *advertiser censored*'- then I guess you can count me among those negative people. if my child died 3 weeks or 3 hours ago, this is not something I could ever contemplate saying. If Jahi's surgeries had been successful, do you think she would be holding press conferences to praise the hospital & staff? No, I'm sure she would just be grateful. I understand she's in a bad place right now, but I struggle to understand this reaction.
I have no doubt that Jahi loved her mother & that her mother loves her deeply & she is suffering.

 

[Softail]

I think the ventilator should be disconnected...but I absolutely refuse to bash the family in any way.

And I'll address the uncle and the $30k.
The video of the uncle mentioning the $30k was on Dec 17, they had just gotten the attorney CD. In CD's letter to the hospital sent in the middle of the night (I think 3 am) on Dec 17, he mentions the $250k cap and that it would be cheaper for the hospital if the ventilator was pulled. The uncle is just pulling a number $30k out of his head at that point, and he's not talking about any civil rights suits because the attorney had only entered the case a few hours before that.

I think the largest medical malpractice suit in California is $17k for an infant.

Not 30K... 30 Million. That's what this is all about according to the uncle. About 6:10 in the video:

http://www.ktvu.com/videos/news/mcmath-vigil-raw-video-of-jahi-mcmaths-mothers/vCLZHH/

 

[Cubby]

Dolan wants families, not doctors, to decide when a patient is dead.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/opinion-la/la-ol-jahi-lawyer-life-and-death-20140107,0,1598073.story?track=rss#axzz2pkyd94Bo

I can't wait to hear Dolan's argument that a family's knowledge supercedes that of a doctor's when determining death.

 

[Herat]

The family has always maintained that the child was completely healthy and that this was a routine tonsillectomy. Court documents have revealed more facts about the case. There was nothing routine about the surgeries that this child needed in order to have a better quality of life.

She had numerous health issues. She had three surgeries, all related to breathing problems. Although the surgeries were described as "elective", I think they were necessary. When my son had brain surgery, it was also described as "elective", but without the surgery he would have had severe brain damage. I came to understand "elective" as meaning that everyone knows it's necessary, but no one is going to force anyone to have the surgery since it's not yet a life and death situation.

I need to clarify something: Elective means it is not an emergency. One can have elective mastectomies, or lung reservations, or colon resections, or brain biopsies. It doesn't mean these are not required for treatment. It just means they aren't a life or death emergency. She would be done "electively" so that there is a specific day and time committed to her surgery on the operating room schedules, so that the surgeon can get any testing or imaging done for the surgery, and that the family can be given pre-operative instructions. It says nothing about whether or not this is the only way to treat her problem, or whether this is just one option for them to consider. It has a very specific meaning that really only relates to the way operations are planned.

 

[Linda7NJ]

From reading over the past couple days/weeks it seems these surgeries are pretty routine when done in adults. imo

IMO same surgery should have the same risks. My husband was overweight at that time and has severe asthma as well.

 

[jaxibear]

From reading over the past couple days/weeks it seems these surgeries are pretty routine when done in adults. imo

I consider it my responsibility to read, consider, and question any and all medical procedures done on me or any member of my family. I know that not everybody like me, but I really don't understand allowing any surgical procedure to be done on a loved one without investigating and weighing the risks.

Perhaps the doctors glossed over the risks or the mother did not do her own research, but, IMHO, she signed a paper that made her aware that there were risks, even if the procedure was considered routine. If she signed such a paper, it is really her responsibility to understand what she was signing.

I know the family of this girl is heartbroken, but perhaps some good to come out of this is that people will take more time to consider the risks and potential outcomes of non-emergency surgery and will weigh all other options.

 

[Cubby]

In case anyone missed it, this is the start of the lawsuit, filed by Dolan. In the first couple of pages, Dolan states that the patient had a routine tonsillectomy and then suffered brain damage. We know that is not true.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/195185964...ec-30-2013-McMath-Civil-Rights-Lawsuit-filing

When this gets to court it will be interesting to see what pre-op authorizations and info were signed before any of thevthree procedures began. I doubt it will describe the procedures as simplified as Jahi's family describes them.

 

[Herat]

Do we know for a fact she was indeed scheduled?


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There are two options: schedule surgery and emergency surgery.

This procedure is always a scheduled surgery that I have ever seen. It would never be considered an emergency, although some tonsillectomies for peritonsillar abscesses are emergencies.

She was to go to PICU because of her pre-existing sleep apnea condition. These kids are always at higher risk of respiratory complications.

 

[Linda7NJ]

This little fact still remains.

A child bled so much her heart FAILED in the ICU of a major children's hospital. IMO that should never happen. Children shouldn't bleed to death under those circumstances.

 

[Zuri]

In the back of my mind, I want to protect NW, her father, step father and Jahi's siblings from witnessing Jahi's decline. It is my profound hope that they will be able to remember her for the lovely girl she was while alive. There is undoubtedly a marked change from what she looked like pre-op to how she looks today.

Without going into detail, I wish I had had that option in 1982 when my 20 year old brother was brought into the ER where I was working with a GSW to the head. He died 40 minutes later. When I think of my funny, extremely smart, handsome brother, the image I have of him is on that stretcher with bloody gauze on his head. I have to actively try to go to the happy images/memories and it is a conscious effort.

I don't want NW to think of her lovely daughter on a ventilator, showing signs/smells of decomposition. I don't want her to remember these agonizing days, months or years from now. For this reason, I pray that Jahi's heart stops soon. Perhaps NW coping mechanisms are much stronger than mine were and this will never be an issue. That I can hope for. JMV

 

[Linda7NJ]

:

I can't wait to hear Dolan's argument that a family's knowledge supercedes that of a doctor's when determining death.

The issue then becomes ....do doctors have sole authority of your child's medical care after you sign them in? For any and ALL procedures or emergencies?

 

[fruity]

Do we know for a fact she was indeed scheduled?


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Yes, the grandmother talks about it in either a huffpo or CNN link. Will brb.

http://wqad.com/2013/12/17/girl-predicts-devastating-outcome-of-her-own-tonsillectomy/

Grandmother: 'as part of the procedure she was meant to spend the night in ICU'.

 

[nrdsb4]

Nature makes that decision for us pretty quickly. But I think what's reasonable varies on a case by case basis. It is rare for families to hold on for long with hope after brain death and only a few have religious beliefs that mandate the body by preserved. So I think the shrieks about "precedent" reflect hysteria more than reality.

Isn't Christopher Dolan himself suggesting that one of his goals is in fact to set a precedent?

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/20...-case-could-set-precedent-for-parents-rights/

 

[Herat]

I can't wait to hear Dolan's argument that a family's knowledge supercedes that of a doctor's when determining death.

He's gonna have a real tough time with that one. It's codifed law in every state in the country.

Death is a medical diagnosis that has to be made by a physician, or coroner.

Dolan would be a real fool to pursue that avenue.

Wait a minute: Dolan should spend hours and hours and hours of time to challenge it. In fact, maybe he should have Uncle Omari out there speaking to legistlators.....He's the BEAST, you know

 

[MaybeNotToday]

I do. I think there is no way of recovering from that. I also have strong opinions about grief and compassion and respect for religious beliefs.

That is what confuses me, because I'd like to think we all do.

 

[Linda7NJ]

There are two options: schedule surgery and emergency surgery.

This procedure is always a scheduled surgery that I have ever seen. It would never be considered an emergency, although some tonsillectomies for peritonsillar abscesses are emergencies.

She was to go to PICU because of her pre-existing sleep apnea condition. These kids are always at higher risk of respiratory complications.

Do you know for a fact she had been scheduled for ICU? If so, please provide a link.

 

[Cubby]

Because he's a "BEAST"! Whatever that means...

Did he say he is a beast? Or that he's beast? I ask because the grade school and middle school kids in my area say something is beast when they think something is cool, or awesome. My son uses the word beast often.