FL FL - Adam Walsh, 7, Hollywood, 27 July 1981

Bumping this thread because I saw someone state in an unrelated thread that luminol had revealed an image of Adam's face on the floorboards of Toole's car. I'd never heard of such a thing and it seems immensely creepy.

http://serialkillers.briancombs.net/937/luminol-negative-before-after/

I'm not sure what I think. The "enhanced" image is absolutely chilling. But I distrust "enhanced" images. The original still seems like a face could be made out, but only in a pareidolia, face-in-clouds sort of way.

What do you all think? Is there any precedent for luminol turning up an image like this?
 
Bumping this thread because I saw someone state in an unrelated thread that luminol had revealed an image of Adam's face on the floorboards of Toole's car. I'd never heard of such a thing and it seems immensely creepy.

http://serialkillers.briancombs.net/937/luminol-negative-before-after/

I'm not sure what I think. The "enhanced" image is absolutely chilling. But I distrust "enhanced" images. The original still seems like a face could be made out, but only in a pareidolia, face-in-clouds sort of way.

What do you all think? Is there any precedent for luminol turning up an image like this?


I'm too scared to look! I'll just read what you guys say about it!
 
This reminds me of what happens when you stare at a photo for too long and start to see things that aren't really there.
 
This reminds me of what happens when you stare at a photo for too long and start to see things that aren't really there.

Yeah, that's pareidolia (scientific term for it). I usually feel that way about these photos (such as all the things people claim to see in all the Arias photos). The "enhanced" image here is pretty ... Convincing. Except that we don't know how it was "enhanced".
 
There's no proof that I've heard about that points toward Toole. He and Lucas were famous for confessing to murders they didn't commit just to get attention or prison perks. Calling the case solved is wishful thinking I believe.
 
I have been saying for years that Ottis Toole was not involved in Adam's case. See my many other post regarding this. Highly recommend reading Arthur Harris' book about Dahmer and the connection regarding this case- it is a great read and it becomes more unbelievable that the HPD continue to take the public for fools. Then again, this has been going on since 1981.

If Jeffrey Dahmer was at the Hollwood and Sears Mall that day, what is the chance of him being there the same day and time Adam gets abducted? Coincidental?

Willis Morgan is the man who vehemently believes he saw Dahmer at the Radio Shack at the Sears mall that day and followed him into Sears. I have personally spoken to Mr. Morgan several times. He his a good man and I can say that I truly believe him on what he said transpired that day. His recollection is in the Arthur J. Harris book and it is chilling. I grilled Mr. Morgan wondering if he could have been mistaken. He 100% assured me there was no way it was NOT Dahmer who was there that day. This only came about after he saw the local daily paper in the days after Dahmer was arrested in Milwaukee for Dahmer's crimes there.

Many people point to the fact that Dahmer was never arrested for sexually assaulting young boys before 1981, therefore excluding him in Adam's case. Actually, Dahmer was arrested for exposing himself to a few children (boys) under 10 years old well before this. Dahmer was also an extreme alcoholic and only about 23 years old in 1981- a full 11 years before his notoriety came in Milwaukee. His access to the sub shop's van is also an important part of this case. Witnesses placed a very similar looking car in the vicinity at the time of Adam's disappearance.

Whether Dahmer was involved in Adam's case is debatable, but it seems a lot more likely in my view he is involved much more than Toole could have been.

Thoughts?

Hubby and I drove a semi for years. We had several loads to the Ambrosia chocolate factory in Milwaukee, WI. Hubby saw JD on several occasions. We had SEVERAL factory workers tell us to avoid him at all costs. I never met him, but hubby had to have him sign shipping releases. When this story broke, we went through all of our paperwork,( murder memorabilia was becoming popular) and burned ALL of his signatures. Why wasn't he investigated in this crime?
 
Are you kidding .They did investigate in fact walsh confronted dahlmer and even more u need to watch the dateline or 48 hours where they actually located OT car that he drove when adam was kidnapped and they found adam's blood in the car a DNA match ..
 
Are you kidding .They did investigate in fact walsh confronted dahlmer and even more u need to watch the dateline or 48 hours where they actually located OT car that he drove when adam was kidnapped and they found adam's blood in the car a DNA match ..

Yes. It was Toole.


"Pictures show bloody footprints on the driver's side of Toole's car. On the rear floorboard of the car -- where Toole admitted to tossing Adam's severed head -- pictures show the bloody outline of a face.

"I have a blood transfer from Adam's face onto the carpet -- you can actually see his image. It's as clear as the shroud of Turin, Veronica's veil. It's clear," Mathews said."

http://abcnews.go.com/US/adam-walsh...h-live-investigation/story?id=13037931&page=2

There was no DNA but along with his confession to which he confessed 24 times, And the story he told him the evidence in the car fit.
 
This is the full-sized luminol photo of the rear carpet from Toole's Cadillac taken by FDLE in 1983; Matthews and Les Standiford cropped it before presenting it in their book Bringing Adam Home:

FDLELuminolPhotoOttisTooleCadillac_zps0e8a6013.jpg


Turn it counter-clockwise 90 degrees to see what they claim is a face. Art Harris thinks it's a boot print. Who knows. Adam's DNA was not found in Toole's car; DNA testing as such didn't exist in 1983, and when in 1994 Hollywood Police cold case Det. Mark Smith sought the carpet, and the car it came from, they had all been misplaced in some inter-agency vortex.

With what we currently know, the case against Dahmer as Adam's killer is implausible, though not impossible. The case against Ottis Toole is also highly problematic.

First, Dahmer was interviewed by Hollywood police and by the FBI in 1991 and denied killing Adam. Toole admitted killing Adam, but then he recanted. Then he admitted, then recanted, and so on.

Regarding Dahmer, there's an initial problem of means. Harris proved conclusively that Dahmer lived in Miami Beach during the period Adam was abducted. Although Harris has offered compelling evidence that Dahmer could have had access to a blue van owned by the sub shop in Miami Beach where he sporadically worked, and a handful of witnesses have reported a blue van at the Hollywood Mall, where Adam was abducted, on the date and around the time he disappeared, Dahmer was less than securely housed during the time he lived in Miami Beach. He was apparently homeless from time to time, sleeping on the beach, though he also seems to have lived in a nearby motel room for a time. So the question of where Dahmer might have taken a victim at that time is a thorny one.

Harris found an open meter room behind the sub shop's location, and even got an ABC Primetime news crew to go in with a forensic investigator. They found an old rusty ax and a sledgehammer and patterns of something which looked to them like old blood, but a preliminary field test was inconclusive. Harris' findings are certainly interesting but far from conclusive.

Regarding signature, Park Dietz, the psychiatrist who interviewed Dahmer before his trial, doubts Dahmer would have found the six-year old Adam appealing as a victim, as Dahmer's tastes went toward pubescents and young adults.

Dahmer did decapitate many of his victims, but he kept the heads, along with various other body parts, either burying them before disposal or, later in his career, keeping them in his kitchen. Dahmer kept his victim's remains nearby so he could fondle, bleach, decorate and/or pulverize them. Two weeks after he disappeared, Adam's head was found dumped in a remote canal off the Florida Turnpike approx. 120 miles from the Hollywood Mall where he was abducted.

Then there's the problem of M.O. Two witnesses claimed to see a man carrying a small boy forcefully to a blue van parked outside the Sears Adam disappeared from -- though at different entrances to the store. A 12-year old boy claimed to see a small boy beckoned by two men wearing stocking masks in a blue van outside the Sears and grabbed.

There's no record of any of Dahmer's victims being taken in a blitz-style attack like the one indicated by these witnesses. Dahmer's M.O. was to lure his victims to a secure location, drug them, then strangle them.
 
Ugh. I am the last person to see faces in blobs, but I shouldn't have looked at that photo again right before bed.

I asked a few days ago, but is anyone aware of any other case where luminol turned up such a specific image?
 
Regarding luminol transfer, I'm aware of handprint and footprint outlines showing up, but not a face. It would be useful to get a forensic examiner's opinion regarding the volume of blood that would have had to cover the face following decapitation, considering that the Broward M.E. determined that Adam had been strangled prior to decapitation.
 
@Justice: Willis Morgan's book, the one you cited, isn't available in ebook format, so I'm unlikely to read it. Morgan, who has claimed for almost 25 years that he had a run-in with Dahmer at the Hollywood Mall on the day Adam Walsh was abducted, is a well-known gadfly in the Adam Walsh case.

His story has been well chronicled by Art Harris, and frankly it's hard to imagine Morgan would have much new to add. Having said that, Morgan is probably the Adam Walsh case's most tenacious (critics might say obsessive) "investigator," and it appears as though he's taken it upon himself to interview alleged witnesses the police failed to follow up with.

Were Morgan's inquiries more, shall we say, dispassionate, his contributions would be more interesting. There's no question, however, that in posting the Hollywood Police Dept.'s and the Broward State Attorney's case files on his site, he's performed an immeasurably valuable service to all those interested in the Adam Walsh case.
 
To follow up on my earlier post, here's a link to the Adam Walsh case files, available on Willis Morgan's site:

http://www.justiceforadam.com/

Willis has made available, free of charge, case files from both Hollywood Police and the Broward State Attorney's Office (BSAO), which launched its own reinvestigation of the case in 1996. If I recall, there's also a link to Willis' book, Frustrated Witness, which recounts his experience trying to convince authorities in South Florida that he saw Jeffrey Dahmer at the Hollywood Mall when Adam was abducted. The book also features exhaustive interviews with other witnesses who claim to have critical information regarding the case.

Two caveats for the uninitiated, one regarding the case files and the other regarding Mr. Morgan himself:

Since the Hollywood Police didn't bother to separate the files according to their original folders before releasing them, the HPD files are simply dumped into three monstrously-sized PDFs (the first one is over 5000 pages). They're collated off of microfilm, and more than a few of the PDF renderings are of poor quality, some even running halfway off the page. The third HPD PDF is entirely of photographs from the case, almost all of which are unviewable.

Fortunately, most of what's in the HPD file (except the photos) is also in the BSAO file, which is well-organized and made up of good quality PDFs. There is even quite a bit of stuff that's not in the HPD case file. So, I would suggest starting with the BSAO file.

As far as Willis himself, well, I said in my last post that he has performed an immeasurable service in providing these files for the public to see, and it's true. The term "debt of gratitude" comes to mind. As someone who has himself grappled with the Hollywood police to get these files, I can say that Willis' claim that "these are the files they didn't want you to see" isn't that much of a stretch.

Having said that, despite his admirable zeal for openness and disclosure, Willis approaches his take on the facts of the Adam Walsh case with a certain religious conviction. Don't expect to contact him and have a reasoned discussion about the case, or to ask him questions regarding his certainty that Jeffrey Dahmer killed Adam Walsh and expect to get a measured response. Communicating with Willis Morgan about the Adam Walsh case is like drinking from a firehose. Willis is, however, totally honest -- something I can say from experience is not in overabundance among the people who have worked on or commented on this case.
 
Thirty-five years ago, the abduction of Adam Wash became one of South Florida’s most high-profile mysteries.Who took the 6-year-old boy? What happened to him?

For years, the case remained open as Hollywood police looked for a killer. There were clues, some evidence, but no arrests.

Adam was in the toy department of a Sears store, his mother browsing nearby for lamps. Five minutes later, she couldn’t find a trace of her son.

Adam was abducted, and his head was eventually found in Vero Beach.

The case changed the way parents kept track of their children. And it propelled his father to become an advocate for missing children and eventually host the nationally televised show “America’s Most Wanted.”

In 2008, Hollywood police closed the case, pinning the crime on a drifter who they had zeroed in on for years. Ottis Toole died in prison in 1996, convicted of other crimes. He was never tried for Adam’s death.

Today, the Hollywood Mall and the Sears store are gone, replaced by a busy Target store. The location? Across the street from police headquarters.

Here is a look back on the case, which began this month 35 years ago, July 27, 1981.
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/broward/article87486547.html
 
I've been mesmerized by the Adam Walsh case for years now, and for the life of me I could never understand why it has received so little attention from true crime buffs. Aside from being arguably the most important case of our lifetime, the Adam Walsh case is a powerful, haunting, heartbreaking story. It's filled with remarkable characters and fascinating details that fit together in an unbelievably complex crime narrative that contains several major episodes spanning several decades. And it is still unsolved, despite the overwhelmingly convenient official conclusion.

Yet this thread is even more barren than a Google search for "Adam Walsh case." Meanwhile, a quick glance at Websleuths' landing page reveals, what, five million posts apiece about the Casey Anthony and JonBenet Ramsey cases? I have to admit, I don't get it.

My mom is a huge true crime buff, not to mention a fan of mystery thrillers. She watches Investigation Discovery, the FBI Files, devours documentaries and books about serial killers, etc. So I asked her: why do you think there isn't more interest in the Adam Walsh case among devotees of true crime?

Oh, that's easy, she said. One, they're never going to find out who the killer really is and, two, the parents were never serious suspects. Case closed.
 
I've been mesmerized by the Adam Walsh case for years now, and for the life of me I could never understand why it has received so little attention from true crime buffs. Aside from being arguably the most important case of our lifetime, the Adam Walsh case is a powerful, haunting, heartbreaking story. It's filled with remarkable characters and fascinating details that fit together in an unbelievably complex crime narrative that contains several major episodes spanning several decades. And it is still unsolved, despite the overwhelmingly convenient official conclusion.

Yet this thread is even more barren than a Google search for "Adam Walsh case." Meanwhile, a quick glance at Websleuths' landing page reveals, what, five million posts apiece about the Casey Anthony and JonBenet Ramsey cases? I have to admit, I don't get it.

My mom is a huge true crime buff, not to mention a fan of mystery thrillers. She watches Investigation Discovery, the FBI Files, devours documentaries and books about serial killers, etc. So I asked her: why do you think there isn't more interest in the Adam Walsh case among devotees of true crime?

Oh, that's easy, she said. One, they're never going to find out who the killer really is and, two, the parents were never serious suspects. Case closed.

There is no news on the case and hasn't been in years, which is probably why it doesn't get much attention. You have to be able to discuss something, but if there is nothing new to discuss, what are you going to discuss?
 
Fair point. But what is everybody discussing on the Casey Anthony and JonBenet Ramsey forums? The only "news" I saw on either one of them is some update about Casey Anthony's bankruptcy and that someone saw her in a bar in West Palm Beach. Mostly it's people debating various issues pertaining to the respective cases, at least as far as I can tell. There's an entire sub-forum devoted to debating the merits of a show ID recently did about the Ramsey case.

Past a certain point, I'm not entirely sure what they could be debating. AFAIK, neither case files have been released. OTOH, the entire Adam Walsh case file is public, so theoretically if you're one of the eight people on the planet who have managed to get through them, you could have a real humdinger of a discussion with the other seven :blushing:
 
There is no news on the case and hasn't been in years, which is probably why it doesn't get much attention. You have to be able to discuss something, but if there is nothing new to discuss, what are you going to discuss?

Have you and your Mom watched the movie?
 

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