GA - Female circumcision in Atlanta

[southcitymom]

A completely different issue!!! The clitoris is a source of sensation, the foreskin is not. See the thread on male circumcision is The Jury Room. I just told my story there, my son had to be circumsized at 5 for MEDICAL reasons, but there is nothing "barbaric" in male circumcision.

Female circumcision is specifically aimed at eliminating a female's pleasure so she won't stray. Equal rights are NOT a concern of those who engage in this practice, believe me. I think even calling it "circumcision" is a misnomer. It should be called a "clitorectomy" or something.

Eve

Hi Eve,

At the risk of repeating myself, I think it is important to point out that the foreskin contains over 50% of all the sensual nerve endings in the entire penis!

 

[Nocgirl]

This is cruel child abuse and should be treated as such. I am so sick of hearing about foreigners moving to this country and they think they can bring their barbaric traditions with them.


This poor girl. Sad thing is this is being done all over the world and little is being done sto stop it.

 

[eve]

Hi Eve,

At the risk of repeating myself, I think it is important to point out that the foreskin contains over 50% of all the sensual nerve endings in the entire penis!

Well, I'd hate to see how horny most American men would be if not circumsized then! :laugh: I honestly didn't know that, South, but I really think if routine circumcision truly diminished men's pleasure, it would not have become widespread. I don't know exactly where I'd be, pleasure-wise, without my clitoris! I know I don't want to find out!

My expereince being married to an uncircumsized male and a circumsized male is they both experience sexual pleasure! No way to compare, but I do know my first hub had a number of recurring problems with infection and as a result, so did I. We were both very hygienic but the foreskin traps bacteria, yeast and etc. Also you don't want to see the pain on the face of a 5-year old whose foreskin won't retract! OUCH!

Eve

 

[2sisters]

I hope none of my posts ever led you to believe that I think people who choose to circumcise their sons are cruel. I don't - not at all. :blowkiss:

No you didn't I don't even remember what posts made me feel that way honestly, but I know you didn't come across that way b/c I remember thinking that you were diplomatic about you views on circumsising.

 

[2sisters]

Well, I'd hate to see how horny most American men would be if not circumsized then! :laugh:

or how much shorter sex could be for us ladies! Ok, back to the topic at hand!

 

[Annie]

http://www.healthline.com/galecontent/circumcision-3


quote from page 2
Normal results

Among boys who are circumcised, most have no penile, urologic, or sexual dysfunction as adults. A majority of girls who are circumcised experience urologic, reproductive, and sexual dysfunction as adults.

 

[southcitymom]

Well, I'd hate to see how horny most American men would be if not circumsized then! :laugh: I honestly didn't know that, South, but I really think if routine circumcision truly diminished men's pleasure, it would not have become widespread. I don't know exactly where I'd be, pleasure-wise, without my clitoris! I know I don't want to find out!

My expereince being married to an uncircumsized male and a circumsized male is they both experience sexual pleasure! No way to compare, but I do know my first hub had a number of recurring problems with infection and as a result, so did I. We were both very hygienic but the foreskin traps bacteria, yeast and etc. Also you don't want to see the pain on the face of a 5-year old whose foreskin won't retract! OUCH!

Eve

I HEAR you about that! I read about your son's surgery and am so sorry y'all had to go through that - but all's well that ends well. I would hate to have to go through that with either of my little guys, but we have had no problems (knock on wood) so far and neither has their Dad.

 

[eve]

I HEAR you about that! I read about your son's surgery and am so sorry y'all had to go through that - but all's well that ends well. I would hate to have to go through that with either of my little guys, but we have had no problems (knock on wood) so far and neither has their Dad.

A little off the subject but have you ever read The Red Tent by Anita Diamant? It is the story of Dinah (from the old testament). It is an awesome book. When Dinah wants to marry an Egyptian, her father Jacob, the son of Abraham, insists that the bridegroom and all his men be circumsized. And they do so. Very interesting what happens after that! Obviously circumcision has religious significance to some, too.

South, I hope your guys will never have problems! Many don't - think of Europe! My dad didn't, for one. But when a boy has a non-retracting foreskin, the only solution is the procedure. I married an uncircumsized male, and I was shocked at how many people would act disgusted at the thought of sex with an uncircumsized male! This would come up when girlfriends were gabbing. I couldn't believe it, after all, this is a human being and men are born that way, how can it be "gross?" I loved him, how could it matter?

I say, whatever floats your boat, but be aware there are physical reasons that it sometimes has to be done, about 20% of uncircumsized males have problems. I cannot imagine a scenario where a female would need her clitoris removed for medical reasons, except maybe cancer (though I have never heard of it occurring in that area).

Eve

 

[southcitymom]

A little off the subject but have you ever read The Red Tent by Anita Diamant? It is the story of Dinah (from the old testament). It is an awesome book. When Dinah wants to marry an Egyptian, her father Jacob, the son of Abraham, insists that the bridegroom and all his men be circumsized. And they do so. Very interesting what happens after that! Obviously circumcision has religious significance to some, too.

South, I hope your guys will never have problems! Many don't - think of Europe! My dad didn't, for one. But when a boy has a non-retracting foreskin, the only solution is the procedure. I married an uncircumsized male, and I was shocked at how many people would act disgusted at the thought of sex with an uncircumsized male! This would come up when girlfriends were gabbing. I couldn't believe it, after all, this is a human being and men are born that way, how can it be "gross?" I loved him, how could it matter?

I say, whatever floats your boat, but be aware there are physical reasons that it sometimes has to be done, about 20% of uncircumsized males have problems. I cannot imagine a scenario where a female would need her clitoris removed for medical reasons, except maybe cancer (though I have never heard of it occurring in that area).

Eve

I love The Red Tent, Eve. One of my favorite books. Very empowering for women, I think.

As you know, I have a lot of respect for the Jewish tradition and what male circumcision means to them. But I will point out that female circumcision also has its roots in the religious traditions of Africa. They have their reasons just as the Jews have their reasons. Most of us just don't agree with this African tradition in this country, but the parallels are undeniable.

As far as cut/uncut go, I've got no preference - as you point out, it's the person not the appendage and every guy's a little different from every guy anyway...in one way or another. Plenty of my girlfriends had never seen an uncut one and I'd just laugh at them - you're not trying hard enough, I'd say! Believe me - there's no shortage on men in this world willing to show you their...ahem....

I know surgery is absolutely necessary for a foreskin that won't retract - that is supposed to be very painful and can cause real long-term troubles if it's not addressed.

 

[eve]

I love The Red Tent, Eve. One of my favorite books. Very empowering for women, I think.

As you know, I have a lot of respect for the Jewish tradition and what male circumcision means to them. But I will point out that female circumcision also has its roots in the religious traditions of Africa. They have their reasons just as the Jews have their reasons. Most of us just don't agree with this African tradition in this country, but the parallels are undeniable.

As far as cut/uncut go, I've got no preference - as you point out, it's the person not the appendage and every guy's a little different from every guy anyway...in one way or another. Plenty of my girlfriends had never seen an uncut one and I'd just laugh at them - you're not trying hard enough, I'd say! Believe me - there's no shortage on men in this world willing to show you their...ahem....

I know surgery is absolutely necessary for a foreskin that won't retract - that is supposed to be very painful and can cause real long-term troubles if it's not addressed.

I'm sure you're right about those African religious traditions. I will just say I'm relieved I wasn't born into such - it's right up there (and worse) with women having to be completely covered, etc. I want to respect all traditions but some just leave me cold. Female removal of the clitoris is one of them. I still think if men had a clitoris, removal would not have been SOP in any tradition or religion. JMO. I could be wrong.

The Red Tent is a wonderful read, isn't it?


Eve

 

[Nocgirl]

Uncircumsized men do have a higher risk of STD transmission like AIDS, but there really is no medical reason for it.

There is absolutely no medical reason to do it to a female either.

My high school sweetheart was from Europe so he was uncircumsized. I don't see the big deal either.

 

[2luvmy]

I have no sons, and if I ever did this would be something to read up on and discuss with my SO.

However, my first initial thought is...when did circumcision come about? There is obviously some use to the foreskin since males are born with it. Other than religious reasons, I wanna know who decided that this was to become a mass practice at the birth of a male?

 

[southcitymom]

I have no sons, and if I ever did this would be something to read up on and discuss with my SO.

However, my first initial thought is...when did circumcision come about? There is obviously some use to the foreskin since males are born with it. Other than religious reasons, I wanna know who decided that this was to become a mass practice at the birth of a male?

There's more at the from a site that is pro non-circumcision, but if you can get past the biased language, there are some good facts.

History of Circumcision
This index page links to material relating to the origin and history of male circumcision. Material is indexed in chronological order of publication.

Introduction

The practice of male genital mutilation is far older than recorded history. Certainly, it is far older than the Biblical account of Abraham (Genesis 17). It seems to have originated in eastern Africa long before this time.6

Many theories have been advanced to explain the origin of genital mutilation. One theory postulates that circumcision began as a way of "purifying" individuals and society by reducing sexuality and sexual pleasure. Human sexuality was seen as dirty or impure in some societies; hence cutting off the pleasure-producing parts was the obvious way to "purify" someone.

It is now known that the male foreskin, or prepuce, is the principal location of erogenous sensation in the human male (see Anatomy.) Removal of the prepuce substantially reduces erogenous sensation.12,16 Therefore (in the appropriate cultural context), circumcision is revealed as a sacrifice of "sinful" human enjoyment (in this earthly life), for the sake of holiness in the afterlife.12

The Jews adopted circumcision as a religious ritual8,10,15,18 and preserved this prehistoric practice into modern times.10,16,18 The circumcision of Abraham removed only the very tip that extended beyond the glans penis.8,17,22,28 Moses and his sons were not circumcised. (Exodus 4:25) Although Moses apparently prohibited circumcision during the 40 years in the wilderness,15,18 (Joshua 5:5) Joshua reinstituted circumcision at Gilgal after the death of Moses.15,18 (Joshua 5:2-10) It is interesting to note that after the Israelites were circumcised, they immediately became soldiers in Joshua's army for the conquest of Palestine. (Joshua 6:1-3)


http://www.cirp.org/library/history/

 

[southcitymom]

I have no sons, and if I ever did this would be something to read up on and discuss with my SO.

However, my first initial thought is...when did circumcision come about? There is obviously some use to the foreskin since males are born with it. Other than religious reasons, I wanna know who decided that this was to become a mass practice at the birth of a male?

Here's some more great information at Wikipedia including history, current circumcision rates and circumcision per centuries and cultures:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_male_circumcision

 

[eve]

I have no sons, and if I ever did this would be something to read up on and discuss with my SO.

However, my first initial thought is...when did circumcision come about? There is obviously some use to the foreskin since males are born with it. Other than religious reasons, I wanna know who decided that this was to become a mass practice at the birth of a male?

Here is an excerpt explaining the Hebrew basis, in part:
CIRCUMCISION
Biblical Basis and Historical Significance
From The Biblical and Historical Background of Jewish Customs and Ceremonies by Abraham P. Bloch


"The rite of circumcision is based on a biblical injunction addressed to Abraham (Gen. 17:9-14)....Josephus took note of the antiquity of this ritual. "And they circumcised him [Isaac] upon the eighth day, and from that time the Jews continue the custom of circumcising their sons from that number of days" (Antiq. 1:2).


The practice of circumcision was common among some Western Semites but not among the Eastern Semites. In Judaism circumcision became a symbolic token of a covenant between God and the Hebrew people (Gen. 17:13).

Various rationalizations have been offered for the rite of circumcision. According to Josephus and Maimonides, it is a sanitary measure. According to Philo, it was designed to aid procreation. Some ancient non-Jews regarded it as an act of consecration. The literal sense of the scriptural text appears to stress circumcision as a physical distinguishing mark of Jewishness."



In other cultures, I'm not so sure how it fits in. I know Egyptians also engaged in the practice at some point.

As for the present day: it is true men are born with foreskins. In my experience, because I had a child who had problems with not being circumcised, I chose to have it done when my second son was born. To avoid the painful problems. Luckily not eveyone has problems but if they do, to me, it's kind of like an appendectomy. We have an appendix, too, but if it causes problems, we remove it. Now it's not true for every body part, but there are some we can live without, and may live better without.

I think in the U.S. it became a sign of "civilized" society. Right or wrong, it was perceived to be the thing to do - perhaps for purposes of hygiene, and became widespread. When I had my child in 1987, there was quite a movement discouraging it as interventive and not necessary. I agreed at the time but my baby got burned! He was one of the 20% with problems and was circumcised at 5 (ouch!).


Eve

 

[Indy Gal]

This is cruel child abuse and should be treated as such. I am so sick of hearing about foreigners moving to this country and they think they can bring their barbaric traditions with them.


This poor girl. Sad thing is this is being done all over the world and little is being done sto stop it.

It is only my opinion but i believe we shouldnt say things like this. Everyone in the world is allowed to have thier own beliefs. Dont get me wrong I think what he done is cruel, but remember in his country this is what he knows. and from what i have read they just do it and no one talks about it as in why or how. Again I want to make it clear that i am in no way defending him, I just didnt think this statment was called for.

 

[Indy Gal]

Here is an excerpt explaining the Hebrew basis, in part:
CIRCUMCISION
Biblical Basis and Historical Significance
From The Biblical and Historical Background of Jewish Customs and Ceremonies by Abraham P. Bloch


"The rite of circumcision is based on a biblical injunction addressed to Abraham (Gen. 17:9-14)....Josephus took note of the antiquity of this ritual. "And they circumcised him [Isaac] upon the eighth day, and from that time the Jews continue the custom of circumcising their sons from that number of days" (Antiq. 1:2).


The practice of circumcision was common among some Western Semites but not among the Eastern Semites. In Judaism circumcision became a symbolic token of a covenant between God and the Hebrew people (Gen. 17:13).

Various rationalizations have been offered for the rite of circumcision. According to Josephus and Maimonides, it is a sanitary measure. According to Philo, it was designed to aid procreation. Some ancient non-Jews regarded it as an act of consecration. The literal sense of the scriptural text appears to stress circumcision as a physical distinguishing mark of Jewishness."



In other cultures, I'm not so sure how it fits in. I know Egyptians also engaged in the practice at some point.

As for the present day: it is true men are born with foreskins. In my experience, because I had a child who had problems with not being circumcised, I chose to have it done when my second son was born. To avoid the painful problems. Luckily not eveyone has problems but if they do, to me, it's kind of like an appendectomy. We have an appendix, too, but if it causes problems, we remove it. Now it's not true for every body part, but there are some we can live without, and may live better without.

I think in the U.S. it became a sign of "civilized" society. Right or wrong, it was perceived to be the thing to do - perhaps for purposes of hygiene, and became widespread. When I had my child in 1987, there was quite a movement discouraging it as interventive and not necessary. I agreed at the time but my baby got burned! He was one of the 20% with problems and was circumcised at 5 (ouch!).


Eve

did they at least put him under for the surgry

 

[BarnGoddess]

The sad facts are, boys are usually treated with respect in this manner. Even if you don't agree with the procedure, it's done under sterile conditions, usually by parents who trust the doctor and they pay for the service.

Little girls are still considered chattel that one must 'fix' before she morally can't, or won't, control her bodily urges. Done under the most filthy conditions with the least amount of thoughts of love in how it's done or why. Though they still may pay for the service, most take it into thier own hands, it's just a girl after all.

In Egypt, Africa and they hold down girls as old at 12 and raggedly sever the clitoris with anything handy, a dull piece of glass, a rusty, unclean can lid or a dull knife.

In my research today I came across something. Female circumcision is the removal of the hood, Clitoridectomy is the removal of the entire clitoris and labia minora. The most severe is the Female Pharaonic Circumcision, where they remove the entire clitoris, labia minora, labia majora and then they scrape or cut the vulva and sew it shut. Sometimes with thread, sometimes with thorns. leaving an opening for urine, menses and I'm assuming sex, since I found no information on girls being cut open just for that purpose but did read more than once that it was for increased pleasure for the husband. She is cut open to allow birth then sewn back shut after childbirth.

I read in some cases where it was thought that the hood over the clitoris should be removed for troubles of the mind, to increase sexual pleasure for the female, to cure her of some physical illness and for looks.

The only reasons stated for the other more horrible procedures were for the benefit of a man.

I've been doing some soul searching because while I do believe as my religion has taught me that circumcision in boys, for our family at least, was the right thing to do, how can I think that when other families feel the same when they do this to a girl. Is it because more care is taken with the boy that I feel that? It can't be because boys have been through this for thousands of years so it's acceptable, so have girls, but I find it repugnant. Is it because while boys will have diminished sexual feelings, the girls will have even less? Is it because I feel that in girls it's less a respect or religious respect thing and more as a control issue for keeping her chaste and she has to be done where I could have chosen not to for my boys?

I'm very confused on the whole thing because I did have my boys done with great pomp and ceremony (with many people watching no less) and with very little thought of anything except for what it meant religiously.

As my ex was Jewish, both of my boys were religiously circumcised (Briss) by a Rabbi. It was done at home on the 8th day. The Rabbi was trained and both boys reacted the same. They were given wine to suck on a piece of gauze, it was performed with only a little "waaaa", then another suck at the gauze with wine and they both fell asleep. We kept vaseline on the wound as instructed and that was it. There was never any infection or problems with the cuts. My in-laws paid the Rabbi.

 

[Indy Gal]

As my ex was Jewish, both of my boys were religiously circumcised (Briss) by a Rabbi. It was done at home on the 8th day. The Rabbi was trained and both boys reacted the same. They were given wine to suck on a piece of gauze, it was performed with only a little "waaaa", then another suck at the gauze with wine and they both fell asleep. We kept vaseline on the wound as instructed and that was it. There was never any infection or problems with the cuts. My in-laws paid the Rabbi.

Wow that at least sounds better than how they do it in the hospital....i have been thinking a lot about this and i just dont know either way....i dont have kids yet but i am just unsure....but the chance of something happing if i dont leans me to wanting to do it....are there any stats on problems when doing the circumcision

 

[southcitymom]

It is only my opinion but i believe we shouldnt say things like this. Everyone in the world is allowed to have thier own beliefs. Dont get me wrong I think what he done is cruel, but remember in his country this is what he knows. and from what i have read they just do it and no one talks about it as in why or how. Again I want to make it clear that i am in no way defending him, I just didnt think this statment was called for.

Excellent post! I agree with it 100%.