GUILTY GA - Lauren Giddings, 27, Macon, 26 June 2011 #13

[Backwoods]

I feel a little sorry for Winters myself, but owing mostly, I'd guess, to my consistent tendency to feel some compassion for folks in tight spots.

But no matter how you look at it, IMO, there has been some bungling in this case. It is natural --and good, IMO -- that people take a little closer look at what may or may not be going on with that. That said, I think the questions and frustration being expressed locally is coming mostly from a vocal few. If the prosecution's case proceeds more or less smoothly from this point, much of the hubbub will soon die down. Even now, I'll venture to say, there are many people who are still registering, if anything, mostly the eye-catching/ear-catching reports of the contents of the post after it was read at the bond hearing ... and not the later development of it being (somewhat) acknowledged to not be authored by Stephen McDaniel.

Winters is at the top of the food chain in this, so naturally he stands to get the brunt of whatever public reaction regarding the post mistake. But honestly, regarding the post -- does he deserve all of it? In a way he does, I guess -- with the top position comes the final responsibility, but... .

I honestly do not know how much verification of evidence provided by other sources it is reasonable to expect the DA's office to do. I'd think it would be wise and ethical to do whatever checking and verification is reasonable and possible, but then again, I doubt DA staff are expected to be in a crime lab rerunning all sorts of complicated forensic testing, for example. We don't know that it wasn't Macon PD or the GBI or some other entity that blundered here. (And yes, that possibility raises other concerns in some people's minds.)

We here have no way of knowing for sure when the (authentic) SoL posts first came to the attention of the investigation. I personally tend to believe that a tip from a Websleuths member in late August may have been the initial tip-off -- though I also think it possible that, in the same time frame, LE may have heard from a member/members of the site where SoL posted. If I remember correctly, we had some intimation around that time that MPD was looking into the posts and considering asking the GBI to assist (although let me be quick to say that I do not know whether the GBI was asked to assist or did assist).

I personally believe that the "Mickey Finn" post was made at the other site some time after SM was charged with murder (early August) and also after the connection was made and discussed at the other site that SoL (the real one) and SM were one and the same --and I don't recall exactly when the latter was. I would really love to know the date of the bogus post and where in the chain of investigation the verification of that post got bungled. If it was handed to the DA as thoroughly verified ... well, I bet he wishes now he'd checked further...but is it really reasonable to expect that he would have? I'm truly asking; I don't know.

If the posts didn't come to LE's attention until late August, as I'm thinking, we know that LE felt confident enough to charge SM with murder on the basis of other evidence, since he was charged earlier in the month. If they really had "the goods" then, I expect they're still there. But then, it does become concerning that the DA let the 90-day time limit for indictment expire -- and failed to request an extension that could have been requested, I believe? -- because, like it or not, it does raise a question about whether the FBI forensics results that were still coming in were not supporting the case as well as hoped. Do we know that for sure? Naw, no way. But it's natural, IMO, to wonder a little.

Two things that concern me about the post:

(1) Was it presented to the grand jury and, if so, how much weight was it given? (No way for me to know.)

(2) Was it weighted heavily enough -- after it came to light -- in the minds of investigators to influence the direction of later parts of the investigation?

For example, did investigation go forward at that point on more or less an assumption that Lauren had been invited in for a drink and then drugged? Or, for another example, take the part of the post that contends that the victim came home late, "wasted from a graduation party": Was there a thought that LG really did head out to party for a while the evening she was last heard from?

I'm certainly not saying I think it likely that investigators necessarily would have swallowed the scenario as presented in the post hook, line and sinker. I'm just pointing out that, if believed to have been authored by SM, it could have misdirected some lines of thought and investigation.

 

[pearl]

The Bibb County voters are going to the polls in 4 months time, it is their right and obligation to judge his performance and that is exactly what they are doing.

The child *advertiser censored* is a whole other issue entirely. People may think it is a "slam dunk" because it was supposedly found on a flash drive in his house but it isn't that simple. These days prosecutors OFTEN have to prove the defendant intentionally search for and downloaded the *advertiser censored* (complicated computer forensic stuff that we already know is a weak point for the DA) or prove the defendant KNOWINGLY was in possession of it.

People can and do unknowingly/unintentionally pick up CP images all of the time when visiting some sites or downloading files which is why proof of intent is often required. For all we know McDaniel downloaded some pirated games (or a zip file of adult *advertiser censored* images) and stored them to a thumb drive without realizing there were cp images in those files. We know McDaniel visited chan related websites and was into gaming, there is a very good chance he could have been downloading files or visiting sites that hide that material.

The child *advertiser censored* is on the flash drive. The flash drive was in SM's apartment, therefore, in his possession. Technically, it really doesn't matter whether he knew it was there or not, he had possession of it. Just like if a person is driving a car that is stopped by LE and cocaine (or some other drug) is found in the car, it doesn't matter if the drugs belong to the driver, he/she is charged with possession because he/she is in the car with the drugs. I think a person usualy knows what is on his/her flash drive. I have several and know every file on all of them. I think a computer expert can tell if something is intentionally downloaded or comes in as an add-on with something else. Back to SM. The child *advertiser censored* was found on a flashdrive in the apartment rented to Stephen McDaniel in the Barrister's Hall complex. The flashdrive content belongs to the tenant Stephen McDaniel.

 

[Backwoods]

The Bibb County voters are going to the polls in 4 months time, it is their right and obligation to judge his performance and that is exactly what they are doing.

The child *advertiser censored* is a whole other issue entirely. People may think it is a "slam dunk" because it was supposedly found on a flash drive in his house but it isn't that simple. These days prosecutors OFTEN have to prove the defendant intentionally search for and downloaded the *advertiser censored* (complicated computer forensic stuff that we already know is a weak point for the DA) or prove the defendant KNOWINGLY was in possession of it.

People can and do unknowingly/unintentionally pick up CP images all of the time when visiting some sites or downloading files which is why proof of intent is often required. For all we know McDaniel downloaded some pirated games (or a zip file of adult *advertiser censored* images) and stored them to a thumb drive without realizing there were cp images in those files. We know McDaniel visited chan related websites and was into gaming, there is a very good chance he could have been downloading files or visiting sites that hide that material.

Many good points here, IMO, Sonya.

pearl is right, of course, in her reply in saying there exist all those complicated computer forensics that could shed further light; but we don't know what of those forensics have been performed, by whom, and what the results were.

 

[Sonya610]

I honestly do not know how much verification of evidence provided by other sources it is reasonable to expect the DA's office to do. I'd think it would be wise and ethical to do whatever checking and verification is reasonable and possible, but then again, I doubt DA staff are expected to be in a crime lab rerunning all sorts of complicated forensic testing, for example. We don't know that it wasn't Macon PD or the GBI or some other entity that blundered here. (And yes, that possibility raises other concerns in some people's minds.)

All I can say is when I first read the post on Macon.com it struck me as ULTRA weird and they didn't even post all of it. How could someone that gets paid to prosecute the crime and knows all of the facts NOT think it was weird?

1) The post said she came back home drunk from a party (what party? confirm she was at a party!)

2) The post said the limbs were barbequed (really? barbequed at the apartment complex or where?)

3) The post said she was drugged and died as a result (Okay then, let's check the toxicology results and see if the FBI can confirm or deny that)

4) The date on the post is a WHOLE other issue.

That is just pure incompetence. The post obviously was a troll and the facts did not match the case. I wasn't following this site when the post came out on Macon.com and when I read it I thought "What in the heck is this? This is utterly bizarre" yet the DA that has ALL of the evidence didn't think it was a bit strange?

If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, and walks like a duck; it is probably a duck. That sums up the DA.

 

[Sonya610]

Technically, it really doesn't matter whether he knew it was there or not, he had possession of it.

Uhhh....no. Having possession of it is no longer the gold standard for convicting people for CP. Prove they sought out CP or prove they KNEW they had it.

It was what....7 images? People that maintain *advertiser censored* collections have hundreds or thousands, not 7. CP is a felony and most everyone that has sense is terrified of it, 7 odd images with no others is mighty suspicious in many ways. Saving material of that nature is risky, if he was into that material and was downloading/saving it and risking years in prison it he would have WAY WAY more than 7 pictures.

 

[Backwoods]

All I can say is when I first read the post on Macon.com it struck me as ULTRA weird and they didn't even post all of it. How could someone that gets paid to prosecute the crime and knows all of the facts NOT think it was weird?

1) The post said she came back home drunk from a party (what party? confirm she was at a party!)

2) The post said the limbs were barbequed (really? barbequed at the apartment complex or where?)

3) The post said she was drugged and died as a result (Okay then, let's check the toxicology results and see if the FBI can confirm or deny that)

4) The date on the post is a WHOLE other issue.

That is just pure incompetence. The post obviously was a troll and the facts did not match the case. I wasn't following this site when the post came out on Macon.com and when I read it I thought "What in the heck is this? This is utterly bizarre" yet the DA that has ALL of the evidence didn't think it was a bit strange?

If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, and walks like a duck; it is probably a duck. That sums up the DA.

bbm: It struck me as ultra weird, too, so much so that within minutes of having heard Winters read it, I began to have serious misgivings about its authenticity. That's why, for a long time after, I thought Winters must have known that it was not truly a McDaniel post but was using some sort of slippery legal tactic and "kinda sorta" wording to slip the sensational post into the public's eyes and ears. But I finally came to the conclusion --and now we are being told -- that he had a good faith belief it was authentic.

Maybe they thought it was not true-to-the-facts but was some fantasy version of the facts that SM was spinning...?

And you're right, the date of the post IS a whole 'nother issue. How in the world...? And who made that goof?

I don't guess there's much chance we (the public) will get word now of what the forthcoming FBI report about the post says ... is there?

 

[Sonya610]

I don't guess there's much chance we (the public) will get word now of what the forthcoming FBI report about the post says ... is there?

Didn't the prosecution say in the hearing that the post should be removed from the evidence? So the FBI report doesn't mean squat. The prosecution can apparently say whatever they like and they say "oops" and it is suddenly unsaid and unheard.

I just wonder how the FBI got involved and supposedly notified the prosecution at all. I thought the GBI processed the CP stuff? That is what was stated during the hearing with Patterson. So does the FBI monitor random murder cases and then inform the prosecutors of suspicious evidence?

I tend to think defense lawyers informed the FBI of Tom Foolery and then the FBI (in some cases) informs the prosecutors.

 

[Backwoods]

Didn't the prosecution say in the hearing that the post should be removed from the evidence? So the FBI report doesn't mean squat. The prosecution can apparently say whatever they like and they say "oops" and it is suddenly unsaid and unheard.

I just wonder how the FBI got involved and supposedly notified the prosecution at all. I thought the GBI processed the CP stuff? That is what was stated during the hearing with Patterson. So does the FBI monitor random murder cases and then inform the prosecutors of suspicious evidence?

I tend to think defense lawyers informed the FBI of Tom Foolery and then the FBI (in some cases) informs the prosecutors.

I was thinking that perhaps the prosecution was approached by someone with doubts about the validity of the post -- whether the defense or some other party -- and that at that point the prosecution asked the FBI experts to have a look. But maybe you are right; maybe defense approached FBI. I do remember one media report said that "experts" were examining the post, according to a source "close to the investigation", so I assume "the investigation"/prosecutors were at least aware it was being examined.

Like you, I am thinking the GBI processed most of the computer forensics in this case -- I'm wondering if GBI may have been involved in the original look at the posts, too. Maybe they were and, when questions arose about the one post, prosecution went first to GBI, then GBI asked for the FBI's participation.

Don't really know how it all came to pass. One thing, though, I don't believe that the April 16 contact from the FBI was the prosecution's first clue that it might be in hot water with that post.

 

[Backwoods]

Uhhh....no. Having possession of it is no longer the gold standard for convicting people for CP. Prove they sought out CP or prove they KNEW they had it.

It was what....7 images? People that maintain *advertiser censored* collections have hundreds or thousands, not 7. CP is a felony and most everyone that has sense is terrified of it, 7 odd images with no others is mighty suspicious in many ways. Saving material of that nature is risky, if he was into that material and was downloading/saving it and risking years in prison it he would have WAY WAY more than 7 pictures.

bbm:

The grand jury also indicted McDaniel on 30 counts of sexual exploitation of children.

read more at: http://www.macon.com/2011/11/15/1786687/mcdaniel-indicted-in-giddings.html

He was indicted on 30 counts of sexual exploitation; I believe it involved 30 images. I think the original arrest warrant on the charge mentioned 7 images and then more were added.


ETA: Here's the link to that indictment. WARNING: Graphic description.

http://download.gannett.edgesuite.net/wmaz/docs/stephen-mcdaniel-child-exploitation-indictment.pdf

​

 

[Sonya610]

Don't really know how it all came to pass. One thing, though, I don't believe that the April 16 contact from the FBI was the prosecution's first clue that it might be in hot water with that post.

Yeah I would bet a dollar they may have realized because of the comments on Macon.com.

I remember that article and the weirdness, and then some guy from opchan showed up and said "the post was a joke/troll". That immediately rang as truth despite the posting style.

I do think that is likely what made the DA first start to realize, but he probably thought "those online posters are full of it". Sad thing is he doesn't recognize "full of it" when he sees it. It is hard to imagine what Winters was thinking when he realized it really was a troll post, then again it is hard to imagine what Winters was thinking when he thought it was real. Tis' a mystery.

 

[Sonya610]

He was indicted on 30 counts of sexual exploitation; I believe it involved 30 images. I think the original arrest warrant on the charge mentioned 7 images and then more were added.

Yes but counts are tricky. How many people are accused of killing 5 individuals but end up with 65 counts in court? Robbery, assault and battery, murder, abuse of a corpse etc... How many kids were in the photos? Each could equal one count.

I recall the original paperwork and it was shocking, which makes me wonder if 23 other photos were found....wouldn't the Telegraph revel in sharing the details about those photos too? Heck yeah they would.

I tend to think MCD did it, but on the other hand I just finished reading Shadow Chasers. Innocent people do get framed by the State and other parties.

Beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

[Backwoods]

Yes but counts are tricky. How many people are accused of killing 5 individuals but end up with 65 counts in court? Robbery, assault and battery, murder, abuse of a corpse etc... How many kids were in the photos? Each could equal one count.

I recall the original paperwork and it was shocking, which makes me wonder if 23 other photos were found....wouldn't the Telegraph revel in sharing the details about those photos too? Heck yeah they would.

I tend to think MCD did it, but on the other hand I just finished reading Shadow Chasers. Innocent people do get framed by the State and other parties.

Beyond a reasonable doubt.

bbm: I linked the indictment above and it does detail more than 7 images. I didn't count to see if there were 30 (I believe there are, though), but I did notice that one particular image described as including 2 prepubescent children seemed to be covered by only one count -- so don't think the counts, in that instance at least, were based on the number of children pictured.

I do agree, most definitely, that innocent people sometimes get framed.

I am still on the fence here.

However -- o/t: On your recent read: Don't get me started on the particular theory of the Woolfolk murders advanced there. Please. Because it would sound like sour grapes.

ETA: Just went back and counted, and it comes up as 30 images; from a quick look at the descriptions, they seem to refer to 30 different images; and there seem to be 30 different file numbers referenced.

 

[Sonya610]

ETA: Just went back and counted, and it comes up as 30 images; from a quick look at the descriptions, they seem to refer to 30 different images; and there seem to be 30 different file numbers referenced.

If you say 30 then I believe it was 30. Having said that if I were on the jury I would want to see intentional searching and/or download and such. From personal experience folks can come across that stuff unexpectedly.

 

[Backwoods]

If you say 30 then I believe it was 30. Having said that if I were on the jury I would want to see intentional searching and/or download and such. From personal experience folks can come across that stuff unexpectedly.

bbm: Oh, I would, too.

 

[Sonya610]

bbm: Oh, I would, too.

Do we know what the status is on the CP case? Have they turned over the evidence to the defense team or is that on hold until after the murder trial?

Two things that concern me about the post:

(1) Was it presented to the grand jury and, if so, how much weight was it given? (No way for me to know.)

If that post was read to the grand jury there is NO WAY it did not heavily influence them no matter what people try to claim later. We may have been skeptical when we heard it but the grand jury was likely made up of people that aren't that internet savvy and they would have absolutely believed that McDaniel really did post an online confession admitting to rape/murder/cannibalism and possibly necrophilia. Not just confessing to it but BRAGGING about it!

I am quite sure some people would like to claim it wasn't a big deal and the grand jury didn't factor it in to their decision that is simply not believable in the real world.

 

[AgentFrankLundy]

Looks like we got some new posters coming to the defense of the local DA, and welcome! I am a big Greg Winters supporter, I hope he wins re election and I hope we get justice in the McDaniel case. That being said, he got his *advertiser censored* KICKED this week , plain and simple ,and it just looks bad. I think he can recover. I think he should take the death penalty off the table . I do not think he will lose face if he does , I think it will help him get a conviction. I don't mean to keep beating a dead horse (no pun intended), but I have previously drawn the comparison to this case and the Casey Anthony case. The Jury , the Pinellas 12, ignorant and illiterate though they were, said, (bang your head against the wall here) that the prosecution could not prove the time or cause of death of little Caylee) so even though they thought Casey did it, there is no way they could find her guilty. If there is no change of venue, which I am not sure Hogue will even ask for now, Bibb County jurors aren't even that brilliant. To me the Death penalty should be asked for if we aren't even having this debate. Judge Brown said the evidence is "tentative"

 

[scapa]

Not crazy at all for a misanthrope, and I think many of the Nazi leaders were misanthropes and not true sociopaths. Misanthropes often have strong feelings, they are often very in touch with their inner hate, at the same time many are animal lovers. I don't think it is because they can control animals, they see animals as innocent, vulnerable, loving and most importantly "not human". My best friend is a misanthropic animal rescuer, she sacrifices greatly to save animals that are in need because it really breaks her heart to see them suffer.

And heck yeah we have all met sociopaths, in some professions you can't swing a stick without hitting 5 of them.

BBM. With respect, a racial hatred profound enough to convince a leadership to pursue a genocidal project (the Final Solution) in the face of compelling evidence that to do so threatens strategic interests elsewhere (Eastern front) is something more than an avuncular misanthropy.

I think of misanthropes, literary ones anyway, as self-defeating examples of often unwilling or unwitting social isolation, not as points along the continuum of mass murderers. If McD is a murderer he is not merely a misanthrope, IMO.

And there is a marked (and revolting) irony abut Goring threatening to send those who abuse animals to a concentration camp, where humans are abused as the animals they are not.

s (whose extended family were annihilated in the WW2 camps)

 

[Sonya610]

And there is a marked (and revolting) irony abut Goring threatening to send those who abuse animals to a concentration camp, where humans are abused as the animals they are not.

I am an animal lover and I do not believe minimizing the abuse or torture of animals increases the value of human life. Abusing animals strikes me as being one of the most horrific and cowardly of all crimes in part because the perpetrators KNOW they will face little or no punishment even if caught.

If it were up to me animal abuse/torture would be a capital crime.

 

[pearl]

AgentFrank, a question if you will answer. Is Hogue or Buford SM's lead counsel?

 

[Sonya610]

Speaking of the November election -- the mud slinging has begun! Greg Winters' opponent David Cooke has this on his website along with a short write up, it is the top link on his main page!

Macon DA Greg Winters charged with using “bogus evidence” in McDaniel bond hearing today; evidence tossed out

http://www.davidcooke4da.com/conten...ence”-mcdaniel-bond-hearing-today-evidence-to

I would think the defense probably DOES want Winters to head up the prosecution at the trial, David Cooke might be a stronger opponent in the courtroom. Cooke appears to have a good deal of experience, he also specialized in prosecuting internet related crimes. http://www.davidcooke4da.com/about