GUILTY GA - Lauren Giddings, 27, Macon, 26 June 2011 # 9

Status
Not open for further replies.
At the risk of beating the commitment hearing horse to death, I've been irked by something since this morning. I know I've seen a lot of discussion and theorizing about what Winters may or may not present at the hearing, but I've been wondering what McDaniel will present. Pursuant to the Superior Court rule I posted upthread (and linked again below), McDaniel can subpoena witnesses and introduce evidence in relation to the offense with which he is charged. I would imagine that one advantage he would gain by doing so would be to preserve that testimony/evidence for potential impeachment purposes at trial. This makes me wonder (and worry, based on his mother's statements) who he may call or what he may seek to introduce. Does anyone have any thoughts???

http://www.georgiacourts.org/files/UNIFORM%20SUPERIOR%20COURT%20RULES_Updated_11_10.pdf
 
At the risk of beating the commitment hearing horse to death, I've been irked by something since this morning. I know I've seen a lot of discussion and theorizing about what Winters may or may not present at the hearing, but I've been wondering what McDaniel will present. Pursuant to the Superior Court rule I posted upthread (and linked again below), McDaniel can subpoena witnesses and introduce evidence in relation to the offense with which he is charged. I would imagine that one advantage he would gain by doing so would be to preserve that testimony/evidence for potential impeachment purposes at trial. This makes me wonder (and worry, based on his mother's statements) who he may call or what he may seek to introduce. Does anyone have any thoughts???

http://www.georgiacourts.org/files/UNIFORM%20SUPERIOR%20COURT%20RULES_Updated_11_10.pdf

See where you're going with those thoughts, I think, but ... I just don't have a clue what may happen.

Maybe some of your law peers will have some thoughts on this.

I can say -- there seems to be a weird kind of lull going on in this case the last few days, anybody else noticing it?

Very few media reports -- guess they have kind of played it all out until the hearing gives new fuel. I'm a little surprised that we aren't yet seeing any "reminders" from the local media, though, that the hearing is coming up this week....

Despite all the reactions her speaking to the media generated, SM's mom gave us "something to talk about" for a while ... now things have gone quiet on that front as well.

Everybody battening down the hatches and getting ready for the hearing, I guess. Us included.
 
See where you're going with those thoughts, I think, but ... I just don't have a clue what may happen.

I guess what's really concerning me is the extent of McDaniel's preparation. By that I mean, should the allegations contained in the warrant prove to be true, McDaniel has planned this for quite some time. Sure, it may not have gone down the way he anticipated, but I can't help but think that he's prepared for this eventuality in some way. His mother's statements to the press, combined with his knowledge of criminal law, have only multiplied my uneasy feelings about this case. I think that the upcoming hearing, should we be lucky enough to be privy to it, may be quite telling.
 
I guess what's really concerning me is the extent of McDaniel's preparation. By that I mean, should the allegations contained in the warrant prove to be true, McDaniel has planned this for quite some time. Sure, it may not have gone down the way he anticipated, but I can't help but think that he's prepared for this eventuality in some way. His mother's statements to the press, combined with his knowledge of criminal law, have only multiplied my uneasy feelings about this case. I think that the upcoming hearing, should we be lucky enough to be privy to it, may be quite telling.

Since I am still a bit on the fence with the case, it's no surprise that I surely haven't come to the conclusion that SM, if guilty, premeditated the murder. Some of the theories toward that view are very compelling, but my problem with them is that they are based largely on "evidence" that -- for me, with no "sources" that I feel relatively sure about -- still has to be classed as rumor.

Certainly there is more than a hint of premeditation in the warrant material, but I'm not sure where what's on the warrant will go, in the end. Just got to wait and see...
 
Since I am still a bit on the fence with the case, it's no surprise that I surely haven't come to the conclusion that SM, if guilty, premeditated the murder. Some of the theories toward that view are very compelling, but my problem with them is that they are based largely on "evidence" that -- for me, with no "sources" that I feel relatively sure about -- still has to be classed as rumor.

Certainly there is more than a hint of premeditation in the warrant material, but I'm not sure where what's on the warrant will go, in the end. Just got to wait and see...
I'm still on the fence about premeditation myself. I can see it both ways.
And, for some of the same reasons, I have personally discarded the idea he was attempting
to frame anyone or had any type of "backup plan" to do so.
I started to post about this yesterday, but it started getting long
and I was having trouble laying out all my various thoughts on this, etc, etc.. so, I gave up :crazy:
 
At the risk of beating the commitment hearing horse to death, I've been irked by something since this morning. I know I've seen a lot of discussion and theorizing about what Winters may or may not present at the hearing, but I've been wondering what McDaniel will present. Pursuant to the Superior Court rule I posted upthread (and linked again below), McDaniel can subpoena witnesses and introduce evidence in relation to the offense with which he is charged. I would imagine that one advantage he would gain by doing so would be to preserve that testimony/evidence for potential impeachment purposes at trial. This makes me wonder (and worry, based on his mother's statements) who he may call or what he may seek to introduce. Does anyone have any thoughts???

http://www.georgiacourts.org/files/UNIFORM%20SUPERIOR%20COURT%20RULES_Updated_11_10.pdf


I would be very surprised if Buford puts up any evidence at all in the hearing. Any experienced criminal defense attorney knows that a preliminary hearing or commitment hearing is an opportunity to force the state to tip their hand and show what evidence they have without the defense being forced to do the same. The defense will be entitled to a "thorough and sifting" cross examination of the state's witnesses, although it will only take literally a scintilla of evidence for the court to find probable cause. It does virtually no good whatsoever, except in the rarest of cases, for the defense to put up evidence in a hearing such as this. By offering evidence to refute the state's evidence, the defense will NOT defeat probable cause but instead will only show the court that there are questions of fact for the jury to decide. In extremely rare cases the defense may be able to beat probable cause but this is so rare its hardly worth mentioning. It absolutely won't happen here. The only time I've ever seen it happen is where you have an extremely inexperienced arresting officer who fails to properly allege and prove the elements of a crime. LE has been very careful in this case and they aren't about to let him walk. It is possible that Buford could subpoena some of the state's witnesses and have them declared as hostile witnesses for purposes of cross examination. That would give him the opportunity to question witnesses that the state may not be intending to call at this hearing. I don't expect him to call his own defense witnesses or to attempt to defeat probable cause at this hearing though.
 
I guess I am very slow, I am just now picking up on the "mid-July" phrase. That answers my premeditation question. :banghead:

The "mid-July" refers to the time frame that the Wal-mart employee spoke about McD's purchases. McD was incarcerated on July 1 on burglary charges where he remains on murder charges. McD shopped at Wal-mart prior to July 1 and MY GUESS prior to LG's murder. IMO, LG's murder was premeditated due to the fact that the warrant states that McD disclosed a murder plan prior to LG's murder. Plus, the details of McD's murder plan are similar to LG's murder. Wouldn't you like to know the exact Wal-mart shopping date and the line item purchase!
Has anyone heard more on the poncho purchase?
 
Not quite sure of the meaning of your reply above. The "mid-July" refers to the time frame that the Wal-mart employee spoke about McD's purchases. McD was incarcerated on July 1 on burglary charges where he remains on murder charges. McD shopped at Wal-mart prior to July 1 and MY GUESS prior to LG's murder. IMO due to the fact as stated on the warrant that McD disclosed a murder plan prior to LG's murder indicates premeditated.

Or, at least indicates that premeditation is possible :)
I'm also still not sure about the idea that this was premeditated.
I'm sure he'd written about how he could get away with murder.
I've theorized before about this and other crimes in the past,
but not because I was planning to commit them. It's more an exercise in intellect.
However, if he were to find himself in the situation where he now needed to get away with murder,
he would certainly try to employ some of his theoretical methods.
 
FWIW:

Today was the first day of fall semester and I presented a "blind hypothetical" to my professor of aberrant psychology, a Ph.D and clinical psychologist. I asked her the following:

-If a young man with an apparently average and more likely high IQ and no overt signs of learning disability were to have presented with odd behaviors such as growing his nails long, scratching and hissing at classmates in adolescence/high school while being relatively awkward and introverted socially but not completely socially crippled, what would your initial thoughts be?

She said [and I quote, because I wrote it down]:
-"Hissing/scratching behaviors at that age are clear indications of a problem, no way around it, and I would suspect the boy would have had issues reaching all the way back into early child hood. Depending on the context it could be Schizotypal PD, that's what those set of traits most closely resemble to me, or even early signs of schizophrenia but I would need more information"

I added:
-"What if said young man were to be heavily immersed, like plenty of other adolescents and young adults, in fantasy genre, going so far as to have created his own elvish language and writing fantasy novels? Would that mitigate/explain his eccentric behavior in your view given the DSM's mention of 'subcultural norms?'"

Her response:
-"No, not necessarily, I would lean toward signs of a developing schizotypal personality perhaps, if he had no positive or negative symptoms I wouldn't go so far as to say schizophrenia but schizotypal personality disorder can often, not in all cases but it can develop into schizophrenia later on. At any rate I'd say he'd need help, pretty seriously"

I then filled her in on who and what I was talking about, describing what we do know of SMD's behaviors via observers as well as his academic accomplishments, the murder charge, etc. She didn't comment on guilt or innocence, but said she felt that if he were guilty, in her professional opinion he'd certainly need help in some capacity as her main reaction was schizotypal PD. Add violence/murder to the equation she also felt comorbid antisocial PD was likely.

****************************************************

Additional thoughts:

If the condom thefts were indeed fetishistic in nature, I would say this is a good pointer to SMD's signature. Signature and MO differ in that the signature reveals the emotional drive behind the crime, while the MO is the method used to carry out the crime. His signature in terms of the condom thefts would be quite revealing regarding the motive behind Lauren's slaying.
After reading over Anatomy of Motive by legendary FBI profiler John Douglas and Mark Olshaker, I also feel that a guilty SMD would best fit the description of an internalizer who Douglas describes as among the greatest cowards of all offenders. Internalizers are very often arsonists or bombers, because they must remove themselves a degree from the crime and the victim, but many one-on-one murderers are internalizers as well. In the latter case, they will try to blitz or incapacitate their victim rather than to face them for a prolonged period or torture them while alive. This way they avoid witnessing the possible judgement of their victim. They don't want that, they want to skip that part and fulfill their fantasy without feelings of inadequacy plaguing them at that moment. It is, in essence, a masturbatory experience.
I also agree with an earlier poster who commented that the end of his time as a student and the beginning of life in the ''real world'' where he'd actually have to use social skills and abide certain social norms could have been part of what triggered him to act out, but victimology is far too important to ignore in a case like this, so I do believe something about Lauren in particular was also a stressor, and it was likely her impending departure, imo. Most likely, barring some event we are unaware of, it was a combination of the two.The two most common triggers are loss of job/station in life and loss of love.
 
I would be very surprised if Buford puts up any evidence at all in the hearing. Any experienced criminal defense attorney knows that a preliminary hearing or commitment hearing is an opportunity to force the state to tip their hand and show what evidence they have without the defense being forced to do the same. The defense will be entitled to a "thorough and sifting" cross examination of the state's witnesses, although it will only take literally a scintilla of evidence for the court to find probable cause. It does virtually no good whatsoever, except in the rarest of cases, for the defense to put up evidence in a hearing such as this. By offering evidence to refute the state's evidence, the defense will NOT defeat probable cause but instead will only show the court that there are questions of fact for the jury to decide. In extremely rare cases the defense may be able to beat probable cause but this is so rare its hardly worth mentioning. It absolutely won't happen here. The only time I've ever seen it happen is where you have an extremely inexperienced arresting officer who fails to properly allege and prove the elements of a crime. LE has been very careful in this case and they aren't about to let him walk. It is possible that Buford could subpoena some of the state's witnesses and have them declared as hostile witnesses for purposes of cross examination. That would give him the opportunity to question witnesses that the state may not be intending to call at this hearing. I don't expect him to call his own defense witnesses or to attempt to defeat probable cause at this hearing though.

I wonder if it would be reasonable to read into the motion for a commitment hearing as possibly SMD's attempt to ascertain what forensic evidence he may have left behind unwittingly despite his best efforts. If at the commitment hearing LE provided insufficient evidence would a motion for release be the next likely step?
 
FWIW:
~snipped
I then filled her in on who and what I was talking about, describing what we do know of SMD's behaviors via observers as well as his academic accomplishments, the murder charge, etc. She didn't comment on guilt or innocence, but said she felt that if he were guilty, in her professional opinion he'd certainly need help in some capacity as her main reaction was schizotypal PD. Add violence/murder to the equation she also felt comorbid antisocial PD was likely.

What I have said all along. Schizotypal, whether there or not is not the problem. It would be antisocial that would be the issue. Unfortunately, unless your professor has followed ALL of the case info, she can't provide too much of an opinion. Humans, by nature, tend to only state the information which supports their own view of a situation, which can tend to color the way an advisor responds. Kudos to your professor for not stating her opinion on guilt or innocence. And, as someone who always asked random questions in my classes, isn't it fun to pick the professors brains sometimes?
 
The "mid-July" refers to the time frame that the Wal-mart employee spoke about McD's purchases. McD was incarcerated on July 1 on burglary charges where he remains on murder charges. McD shopped at Wal-mart prior to July 1 and MY GUESS prior to LG's murder. IMO, LG's murder was premeditated due to the fact that the warrant states that McD disclosed a murder plan prior to LG's murder. Plus, the details of McD's murder plan are similar to LG's murder. Wouldn't you like to know the exact Wal-mart shopping date and the line item purchase!
Has anyone heard more on the poncho purchase?
I guess I really am getting senile, I must have been thinking it said Mid- June . Sorry . Dohhh.

And I am striking out on finding anything out about this commitment hearing, but I am not giving up yet !
 
AngelAnalyzes: I thought I read earlier that Schizotypals are not usually prone to commit murder . Is that correct ?
 
I would be very surprised if Buford puts up any evidence at all in the hearing. Any experienced criminal defense attorney knows that a preliminary hearing or commitment hearing is an opportunity to force the state to tip their hand and show what evidence they have without the defense being forced to do the same. The defense will be entitled to a "thorough and sifting" cross examination of the state's witnesses, although it will only take literally a scintilla of evidence for the court to find probable cause. It does virtually no good whatsoever, except in the rarest of cases, for the defense to put up evidence in a hearing such as this. By offering evidence to refute the state's evidence, the defense will NOT defeat probable cause but instead will only show the court that there are questions of fact for the jury to decide. In extremely rare cases the defense may be able to beat probable cause but this is so rare its hardly worth mentioning. It absolutely won't happen here. The only time I've ever seen it happen is where you have an extremely inexperienced arresting officer who fails to properly allege and prove the elements of a crime.

Thanks for the feedback, Colonel Mustard. As you can probably guess, the extent of my criminal law knowledge is limited to a measly semester of crim pro. It's nice to hear from someone with some practical, strategic knowledge.

I believe this is the first time I've seen an article refer to who'll testify at the commitment hearing:

On August 26th, Buford will be able to gather information during McDaniel's Commitment Hearing where the lead detective on the case will testify.
http://www.newscentralga.com/news/local/McDaniels-Attorney-Shows-Defense-Side-of-Murder-Case-127556468.html

Is it typical for the District Attorney to limit his/her witnesses to the lead detective, given the low threshold for probable cause? If so, is there any reason you would think McDaniel's case would be different?
 
AngelAnalyzes had posted:
It's easy to stay focused on my area of interest, but not on the other classes I have to take as pre-req's lol.

Ain't that the truth! :p
 
Okay , finally able to sleuth this down - 9:30 a.m. Friday August 26th Magistrate Judge Bill Shurling will preside ( these commitment hearings are normally heard in magistrates court) Room 100 First Floor Bibb County Courthouse
 
What I have said all along. Schizotypal, whether there or not is not the problem. It would be antisocial that would be the issue. Unfortunately, unless your professor has followed ALL of the case info, she can't provide too much of an opinion. Humans, by nature, tend to only state the information which supports their own view of a situation, which can tend to color the way an advisor responds. Kudos to your professor for not stating her opinion on guilt or innocence. And, as someone who always asked random questions in my classes, isn't it fun to pick the professors brains sometimes?

I concur, totally, that APD would most likely need to be comorbid with STPD [just made that up lol].
I didn't tell her anything about the opinions of people from college, etc., literally just told her about the scratching/hissing/fantasy thing. She was totally unaware of the case I came to find out after, I just wanted to know if that sounded more than eccentric to her. It sounded pretty out there to me, and I had people in my high school who would run around with dog collars and leashes on...all for attention. They were extroverted "outcasts" though, they didn't fall outside a subcultural norm for that era and Stephen and I are the same age so a lot of the same trends/music/movies were popular for us at the same time. I really would think he'd have to be pretty extroverted to have the gull to scratch and hiss, but then again there are some who are introverted but not necessarily insecure who will act in strange ways to make statements etc.
Yeah, I do have a tendency to ask random questions and it probably bugs the students around me who just want class to be over with but those people suck, we're there to learn. :crazy:
 
Would it help or hurt McD to have a real psych eval? I'm not sure how all of this works. Also, do these court appointments actual appointments? Like if I get free from work and can go, will it be at 9:30 or will it be one of those things where I will be there at 9:30 and then it could be like 3:00 before they get to McD?
 
Would it help or hurt McD to have a real psych eval? I'm not sure how all of this works. Also, do these court appointments actual appointments? Like if I get free from work and can go, will it be at 9:30 or will it be one of those things where I will be there at 9:30 and then it could be like 3:00 before they get to McD?

It may help him only in the penalty phase, he too clearly demonstrated behaviors that in legal terms qualify as sane and aware of right and wrong in terms of his attempts at obstruction and forensic counter-measures. In the penalty phase though, a psych eval could save his life.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
93
Guests online
2,835
Total visitors
2,928

Forum statistics

Threads
593,194
Messages
17,982,210
Members
229,050
Latest member
utahtruecrimepod
Back
Top