Identified! Greece - LIVING 4 year old, with Roma couple, Oct'13 - #1

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Of course u shouldnt be randomly stopped in the street to prove your child is yours but.. if i see something thats not quite right and my motherly instincts are telling me that i need to do something then i will report it..
If that child in dublin was begging with the romas and u did a double take at her lookin nothing like her family do u just walk past or do u think twice? How long is that childs face gonna stay in ur head?

My daughters are mixed raced And im white im happy to be stopped at any time to prove there mine if it stops another mom looking for there child for the rest of there life

And if i could have got them both micro chipped at birth like i did my dog i would have !
 
http://gma.yahoo.com/kidnapped-gyps...-database-212033722--abc-news-topstories.html

DNA from a little girl found living in the squalor of a Gypsy encampment in central Greece does not match an international database of missing persons, Greek authorities told ABC News


Wonder if the Roma were telling the truth and somebody gave them the child?, That or she was a prostitutes daughter or something. I don't think she is american but hopefully they do find her family, If not I hope she goes to a good home.

Here's another theory:

The finding has led local authorities to believe that the most likely scenario is that Maria ended up at the Roma camp in Farsala, central Greece, following a crackdown on illegal adoptions in neighboring Bulgaria in the 2008-2010 period.
http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite1_1_22/10/2013_524230

Although, I looked up illegal adoptions in Bulgaria and came up with this (it fits with the claim of the one couple).

http://assembly.coe.int/ASP/Doc/XrefViewHTML.asp?FileID=11790&Language=en

Doc. 11461
7 December 2007
Disappearance of newborn babies for illegal adoption in Europe
Report
Social, Health and Family Affairs Committee
Rapporteur: Ms Ruth-Gaby VERMOT-MANGOLD, Switzerland, Socialist Group


17. When we talked to the mediator, Ms Karpachova, she said that since 1994 Ukraine had been faced with a problem of child trafficking covered up as international adoption. There had been investigations and a number of officials had been prosecuted.
18. During our conversation the mediator suggested that the delegation meet a mother whose daughter had given birth normally to twin girls after a pregnancy of 7 months. On the third day she saw only one of the twins and was refused access to the nursery. A nurse told her that one of the twins had died. She was not allowed to see it and was not given it for burial. She also noticed that the autopsy report gave the wrong date of birth. She complained to the prosecutor’s office and had blood tests carried out, whose results the prosecutor refused to register. She then turned to the health ministry, which refused to see her, and then to the chief prosecutor. There was no judicial inquiry and the hospital staff consistently backed up the hospital’s account.
19. The Ukrainian authorities pointed out that the matters in question occurred in 2002, and that at that time parents were legally prohibited from seeing their dead babies. Since then the law has been changed to allow the mother to see her baby and the father to be present at the birth.
20. The Ukrainian authorities also pointed out the steadily rising numbers of mothers opting not to keep their babies or having babies in order to sell them.
21. They likewise informed the parliamentary delegation that since 2003 proceedings had been instituted for illegal adoption in several cases in Ukraine and that the prosecutor’s office was conducting enquiries in search of fresh evidence.
22. In the period from 1996 to 2004 26,000 children had been adopted in Ukraine and 13,000 abroad. Each case was examined by the courts and the prosecutor’s office, but despite the rules there were still too many illegal adoptions.
23. With specific regard to the disappearances of newborn children, the Ukrainian authorities have set up an investigating committee and have found cases where doctors committed irregularities in connection with deliveries. An enquiry was instituted and Identikit pictures were issued.
24. Following the visit the parliamentary delegation was informed that the Ukrainian justice authorities had announced the exhumation of several newborn babies at Kharkov hospital. DNA tests are to be carried out.
25. According to some NGOs the disappearances are not an isolated instance and there have been similar occurrences in Moldova, Bulgaria, Romania and many other countries.
56. Where Bulgaria is concerned, the rapporteur wishes to recall the court case in 2006 implicating a family of Gypsy origin who had purchased babies from young Bulgarian women. This traffic was discovered by criminal investigators in the Paris region as a result of an investigation of trafficking among Gypsies.
57. The young Bulgarian women had become pregnant after coming to France to engage in prostitution. Not wishing to have abortions, they decided to sell their babies. Families of Gypsy origin were interested. In this instance the persons implicated were not criminals but, owing to their foreign origin, could not avail themselves of the French social services to adopt a child. The baby girls had been sold for 5,000 euros, the baby boys for 6,000 euros. The biological mothers had received between 400 and 2,000 euros each. This case nevertheless had a positive impact in Bulgaria as a law was recently promulgated, clarifying the criteria to be fulfilled for adopting a child.
58. It should nevertheless be pointed out that heads of this type of network usually locate young pregnant women from poor families in Moldova or other reputedly “poor” countries, and bring them to France.
59. The mothers-to-be go to hospital to give birth as last-minute emergencies, either under the name of the “adoptive” mother or under their own names, and the buyer declares the baby as his own at the local town hall.
There's more at the link about other countries and special situations...
 
Police reexamining known kidnapping and illegal adoption rings: Interpol assisting Greek police with investigations - anthropologist called in to determine Maria's age

http://www.tovima.gr/en/article/?aid=535839
The police are specifically looking into three illegal adoption rings that were operating in northern Greece between 2009-2011 – with the participation of Roma gypsies and Bulgarians – in conjunction with information on missing children from Poland and other Scandinavian countries.

...The police are now looking into recent cases of illegal adoptions, in hopes of uncovering further details about the mysterious origin of Maria, with the focus on three specific gangs that operated between 2009 and 2011 in Greece.

The first gang which operated in northern Greece was busted in 2009 and 11 people were arrested. In this case a Bulgarian middleman tasked a Roma couple to locate potential buyers. The police report reveals that the sellers had “taken pictures of the child and showed it off as merchandise to prospective adoptive parents”.

The police are also looking into another illegal adoption ring that was busted by the Bulgarian authorities in 2010. This gang would send babies from Nova Zagora and central Bulgaria for sale in Greece. In the past Nova Zagora has been known to be associated with illegal adoption gangs operating in Greece, Italy and elsewhere.

The latest adoption ring of interest was busted in 2011 in Athens, which resulted in the arrest of seven people in Greece and five in Bulgaria. The ring would take advantage of pregnant Roma women from Bulgaria and have travel to Greece, where they would sell their children to Greek couples for 20,000 to 25,000 euros. The gang would use violence to take the newborn babies from their biological mothers and use falsified documents to carry out the adoptions.
 
What is a "child who is at risk for abduction"? Aren't they all?

Yes. They are all at risk. In our case, my son has primary custody and his ex has supervised visitation. She hangs with a rough crowd and, for me, there is always the fear she'll take off with him. There was a period, while waiting for an emergency hearing, when we couldn't let him leave the house. So in our case there is known risk, as opposed to the unknown risk all children face.
 
It just is impossible she is Lisa so I don't understand all the articles linking that. Also, I don't know why nearly all the news sources can't change their headlines to reflect her real age!

I think it's entirely possible her parents do not have access to the media or are not seeing/have not seen her pictures splashed all over for some reason ... in addition to the other possibilities people have raised.

Trying to get caught up here, but why is it "impossible" that she's baby Lisa? I know they did a dental exam, but those are not failproof and are actually quite unreliable.
 
Trying to get caught up here, but why is it "impossible" that she's baby Lisa? I know they did a dental exam, but those are not failproof and are actually quite unreliable.


To me, it's the age difference. After examining Maria, they say she is between 5-6 years old. I don't think she looks like her either, but I wouldn't use that alone.
 
To me, it's the age difference. After examining Maria, they say she is between 5-6 years old. I don't think she looks like her either, but I wouldn't use that alone.

I can see the resemblance so I'm not ruling her out. I've been researching the dental exam to estimate age. This isn't always accurate as some dental condition have to do with genetics, nutrition and hygiene.

Although I do think, in most cases, you would be able to tell the difference between a 3 year old and a 6 year old. A three year old would still have the little baby teeth, so if this little girl has lost some teeth and have permanent teeth in place, then there is less of a chance that it's baby Lisa.

I do think the resemblance is uncanny though.
 
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The suspects were also identified as 39-year-old Christos Salis and a 40-year-old woman who used the names Eleftheria Dimopoulou and Selini Sali.

http://news.yahoo.com/greek-police-release-photos-abduction-suspects-152806615.html

No, this is not right. We can't just have people turning their children over to gypsies whatever the circumstances. What if the mother was getting even with the child's father. We have to know everything about all these children, where they came from, who there real parent's are, how they were living. The gypsies do not follow the law of any land. That doesn't mean we don't. We can not allow this to continue. Even though it's their culture, they can not in all ways live off the grid. Sorry.
 
This couple released a video of "Maria" dancing around when she was a year old. I finally found it without the faces blurred. I was able to freeze frame it and screenshot it.

ScreenShot2013-10-22at74303PM.png
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Have any other measurements been released for this child? I have a hard time believing that they now think she is 5 or 6 but only 100 cm (3 ft 3 in) and 17 kg (37 lbs). My daughter is 4 (5 in January) and 45" and about 52 lbs. She is a little tall compared to the other kids in her class, but not terribly so. There are some other girls about her size as well. These measurements seem really small for a 5-6 year old in "good health"

A side note, my daughter is blonde haired and blue eyed, We went to Athens when she was a baby and could not walk down the street without being surrounded by people wanting to touch her. It was incredibly unsettling. Prior to that trip I always doubted the McCann's assertion that someone would steal their child for her looks. Afterward, I can totally see it being a real concern. (not saying that's what happened to Madeleine!)
 
If there are connections to gangs, maybe they're lying to cover that up. Could be scared of retaliation against family and community. I'm not excusing it but it would be quite a dilemma.
 
Trying to get caught up here, but why is it "impossible" that she's baby Lisa? I know they did a dental exam, but those are not failproof and are actually quite unreliable.

This child is just not a toddler, which Lisa would be. This child is 5-6 years old. Lisa would be just shy of three years old. There is a HUGE difference and not just size-wise.

And, honestly. What a stretch. Because she is blonde? Baby Lisa died in MO, IMO. And all of we blondes don't look alike. I guess I could be Grace Kelly or Marilyn Monroe.

Not directed at you, but at the hype over a blonde girl. Can we just narrow it down a bit? Jeebus! :facepalm:
 
This couple released a video of "Maria" dancing around when she was a year old. I finally found it without the faces blurred. I was able to freeze frame it and screenshot it.

ScreenShot2013-10-22at74303PM.png
[/URL][/IMG]

Well if that is Maria, her hair in the more recent pics has been bleached! This child has a darker, sandy blonde hair. What in the WORLD?
 
They might have dyed her hair darker when she was younger.
 
Well if that is Maria, her hair in the more recent pics has been bleached! This child has a darker, sandy blonde hair. What in the WORLD?

Or this is a dyed color (toddler dancing image). I tend to the latter.

ETA: somewhere it was reported she had head lice, which I think would not be able to live if her hair had recently been bleached. This shade of nearly white-blonde shows roots very quickly, and none are visible in the pics w/the Romas.
 
Some reports are saying "Maria" is 4. Why the discrepancy???

Also, the video pic, the parents say she is 1 in. To me, she looks closer to 2. But, she does have that high forehead even though her hair appears darker in the video.
 
I think her hair was definitely dyed darker when she was younger--unless her eyebrows were bleached as well. And, like pieper said, the roots would show VERY quickly.
 
While it's possible this child has been kidnapped, and of course authorities need to check with police and missing children organizations, I think it's every bit as likely that the child has no real parents to be returned to.

The confused and inconsistent stories told to the police might just be a result of their culture -- some groups of people simply don't trust the police, and have a habit of making up stories to obscure everything.

The child looks very Russian or Romanian to me. She could have been abandoned by a drug addicted or otherwise incompetent mother. There are tons of situations in which a child might end up with a non-related family, when people are living below the radar in this way.

All I'm saying is, kidnapping is not necessarily the conclusion one should jump to here, though it does need to be ruled out.
 
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