Hotel Cecil Rooftop K-9 Search

[Oriah]

I am confused over what tracking dogs can do and their limitations. I though that if the dog (let's assume it is not HR and AS trained) picked up a scent of EL in her room for example and the dog lost the scent say on the 14th floor and did not pick it up again on the roof, they would have not sensed the body. This means there were confounding odors or EL did not walk across the roof?

What if LAPD only used the fire door to enter the roof and not taken the dog over to that access point? Say EL entered the roof through a fire escape ladder so the dog had no trace of her when they searched the roof, would a tracking dog be able to pick up an air scent at the tank base if they were not on her trail when the SAR team entered the roof?

1st BBM:
It's really hard to say, without knowing what the dog was trained for and what the dog was scented on. I think it's possible that wherever a trailing or tracking dog lost Elisa's scent, is where she was no longer on foot or leaving any other source of live scent. Live contact with other materials would leave a scent trail also.

2nd BBM:
Yes, they should have been able to pick up the scent again.

Air scenting is different than trailing. But regardless- they should alert at the most dense source of scent they can identify- in this case, that should have been the base of the container.

Hope that makes sense?

 

[Conductor71]

The officer interviewed says if lid was on the tank the dog would not been able to detect the body? Hard time understanding him so hoping others would confirm.

Oriah, does this help determine why dogs did not pick up her scent? I am hoping that this does not just confuse things even more?

http://youtube/jIMtGQjMMyE?t=1m25s

 

[Oriah]

The officer interviewed says if lid was on the tank the dog would not been able to detect the body? Hard time understanding him so hoping others would confirm.

Oriah, does this help determine why dogs did not pick up her scent? I am hoping that this does not just confuse things even more?

http://youtube/jIMtGQjMMyE?t=1m25s

For some reason the video will not play for me- not sure if it is operator error (my bad) or the link is broken?

I don't understand why that would be the case, given the materials of the tank, the vents and piping, and the proximity to the tank (and we can hopefully assume the K9 was taken close to the tanks?)

I've been thinking about this a lot lately and wondering if it's possible Elisa had- either willing or unknowingly- ingested something such as bath salts? The reason why I wonder about that; in trying to keep up with the evergrowing trends of drug use, and training narc dogs to scent on different scents, bath salts are one of those that change the way people 'smell' to a K9. So perhaps it's possible that she was under the influence of a chemical that the K9 wasn't proofed off of?

It could also possibly explain why she was found nude (if in fact, she was.)

 

[Conductor71]

For some reason the video will not play for me- not sure if it is operator error (my bad) or the link is broken?

I don't understand why that would be the case, given the materials of the tank, the vents and piping, and the proximity to the tank (and we can hopefully assume the K9 was taken close to the tanks?)

I've been thinking about this a lot lately and wondering if it's possible Elisa had- either willing or unknowingly- ingested something such as bath salts? The reason why I wonder about that; in trying to keep up with the evergrowing trends of drug use, and training narc dogs to scent on different scents, bath salts are one of those that change the way people 'smell' to a K9. So perhaps it's possible that she was under the influence of a chemical that the K9 wasn't proofed off of?

It could also possibly explain why she was found nude (if in fact, she was.)

Hmmm...that may be a possibility. Here is a copy of video the dog comments start around 1:38. The Officer definitely says the dogs would "generally not" detect a body in the tank due to the closed lid. He also mentions that the the 5-6 in between death and when dogs searched may have been a factor.

http://youtu.be/lRQqdAQ9Ptc

What is your take or view on why the police do not want to talk to the media about this case? I have heard in a TV report that the LAPD called the day before a scheduled interview that according to higher ups, no one talk about the case. It's just really odd that she was in two different cities for five days and not one who saw her has been spotlighted in the media. Maybe this is done when LA suspects an accident? You may not have an opinion on this case, but do you know if LE goes incommunicado as a protocol when they have certain information that would indicate they believe it is either homicide or an accident? Don't mean to peg just you, Oriah, but you seem knowledgeable about LE investigations. Thanks again for helping us out!

 

[Oriah]

Hmmm...that may be a possibility. Here is a copy of video the dog comments start around 1:38. The Officer definitely says the dogs would "generally not" detect a body in the tank due to the closed lid. He also mentions that the the 5-6 in between death and when dogs searched may have been a factor.

http://youtu.be/lRQqdAQ9Ptc

What is your take or view on why the police do not want to talk to the media about this case? I have heard in a TV report that the LAPD called the day before a scheduled interview that according to higher ups, no one talk about the case. It's just really odd that she was in two different cities for five days and not one who saw her has been spotlighted in the media. Maybe this is done when LA suspects an accident? You may not have an opinion on this case, but do you know if LE goes incommunicado as a protocol when they have certain information that would indicate they believe it is either homicide or an accident? Don't mean to peg just you, Oriah, but you seem knowledgeable about LE investigations. Thanks again for helping us out!

Something seems very odd to me, to be honest. Not sure if it is with the timing, the water decomp, LE response, or what.

Do we have any further info past the recovery date?

 

[Conductor71]

Something seems very odd to me, to be honest. Not sure if it is with the timing, the water decomp, LE response, or what.

Do we have any further info past the recovery date?

Not that I am aware of the only things I have noted that was not reported in US media are the following:

Police answered questions for a few days up to post autopsy. Canadian media has an LAPD detective assigned to them and they have received more accurate info than the US media. For example, the media here keeps saying the fire door was locked but the LAFD is on the record with the Vancouver Sun stating the door was not locked per fire code but alarm should have sounded.

One Canadian reporter informed viewers that the LAPD was scheduled to given an interview, but they called to cancel the day before saying they were told from higher ups not to speak on the case at all.

The only real "lead" shared by Lt. Teague was that he did not want to talk much about EL's cell phone. This was on the day the official missing person's notice was released on Feb 6th.

Only one media source (Canadian too) reported that EL was last seen physically by an employee in the hotel lobby "later at night" of the 31st. Employee said everything looked normal. I am guessing this means 10-midnight. The video is time stamped 12:20 am Feb 1st and she never checked out as planned in the morning.

It is reported that police had searched the roof with dogs but no scent was detected. The search took place around three weeks prior to discovery of the body on the the 19th.

Doubt any of this really relevant but you never know...

 

[Oriah]

Thanks Conductor71.

One of the things I'm pondering is why the search with K9(s) of the roof turned up nothing intially. I realize neither US or Canadian LE have commented on the condition of Elisa's body when found, but I would think they would have- if only to CYA, kwim what I mean?

I hate to say that, but it's one of the few things that make sense to me. I am still struggling with missing a body in a tank above ground with venting, made out of a very porous material.

I suppose she may not have been in the tank that week- and it was possibly at a later date that she ended up in the tank- but did they trail her anywhere else? Like...outside? It seems like LE got absolutely nowhere with the initial K9 search. It does happen, but something is not right imvho.

 

[OCSlacker]

Thanks Conductor71.

One of the things I'm pondering is why the search with K9(s) of the roof turned up nothing intially. I realize neither US or Canadian LE have commented on the condition of Elisa's body when found, but I would think they would have- if only to CYA, kwim what I mean?

I hate to say that, but it's one of the few things that make sense to me. I am still struggling with missing a body in a tank above ground with venting, made out of a very porous material.

I suppose she may not have been in the tank that week- and it was possibly at a later date that she ended up in the tank- but did they trail her anywhere else? Like...outside? It seems like LE got absolutely nowhere with the initial K9 search. It does happen, but something is not right imvho.

Hi Oriah, couple of quick questions. Not sure if this has been asked, but if the search did not take place within 5 days and say it took place after 2 weeks, what are the chances of the scent remaining on the roof? Also, would the scent remain leading to the fire escape or stairway from the hall inside the hotel? The hotel has tile in the halls and they do not appear to be cleaned often that I could see . I am strictly basing this off of the scuff marks outside of the elevator though. Not really sure what housekeeping does or does not do on a regular basis. Thanks for your time.

 

[noodled1]

good questions OCSlacker.

you mention the tile floors in the hall. I'll also ask

Would sweeping the floors or vacuuming the floors erase any scents, or does it have to be washed away with water/cleaners?

How much do cleaners used in a enclosed space like a hallway, if used on the walls and not the floor effect the scent?

On the roof top how much does wind effect a scents staying power?

 

[Oriah]

good questions OCSlacker.

you mention the tile floors in the hall. I'll also ask

Would sweeping the floors or vacuuming the floors erase any scents, or does it have to be washed away with water/cleaners?

How much do cleaners used in a enclosed space like a hallway, if used on the walls and not the floor effect the scent?

On the roof top how much does wind effect a scents staying power?

Sweeping, or vacuuming should not affect a live scent trail- there are particles of scent that remain, sometimes airborn and redeposited- that trailing dogs are scented on. They may also be confused by a stronger deposit of scent- such as a vacuum bag- and alert there.

Do we know if LE took the K9(s) through storage/housekeeping/trash closets in the interior of the hotel?

 

[noodled1]

Sweeping, or vacuuming should not affect a live scent trail- there are particles of scent that remain, that trailing dogs are scented on. They may be confused by a stronger deposit of scent- such as a vacuum bag- and alert there.

Do we know if LE took the K9(s) through storage/housekeeping/trash closets in the interior of the hotel?

No, we have no idea where they went.

 

[Oriah]

No, we have no idea where they went.

Okay.
What about housekeeping/trash deposit locations on the floors between Elisa's room and the roof? Or closets where a cleaning person would have gone to replace or renew a vacuum bag and/or cleaning products?

 

[Conductor71]

Okay.
What about housekeeping/trash deposit locations on the floors between Elisa's room and the roof? Or closets where a cleaning person would have gone to replace or renew a vacuum bag and/or cleaning products?

I am not sure what "thorough" means? I do find it incredulous that a police sergeant would not know if the tanks were checked?!!

source: KTLA


Police searched the roof of the Cecil with the aid of dogs when Lam was reported missing about three weeks ago. Lopez said he didn’t know if the tanks were examined.

“We did a very thorough search of the hotel,” he said. “But we didn’t search every room; we could only do that if we had probable cause" that a crime had been committed.

 

[AlphaWolf]

I am not sure what "thorough" means? I do find it incredulous that a police sergeant would not know if the tanks were checked?!!

source: KTLA


Police searched the roof of the Cecil with the aid of dogs when Lam was reported missing about three weeks ago. Lopez said he didn’t know if the tanks were examined.

We did a very thorough search of the hotel, he said. “But we didn’t search every room; we could only do that if we had probable cause" that a crime had been committed.

- LE said that the Hinged access lid on the tank was closed when they searched the roof.....LE did not think someone would climb up onto and inside the tank

- It's kind of strange that LE also said " the tank is about 10 ft' deep and if her body was at the bottom ....it would have been difficult to see"

does that mean they did briefly look inside the tank?...but didn't see her?.....wasn't she found by someone looking at the bottom of the tank?

a litle strange....but not surprising if they didn't see her.

>>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=lRQqdAQ9Ptc#t=66s

 

[noodled1]

I think keeping events in context is important.

When the dogs were used she was a missing person

When the hotel was searched she was a missing person.

When the police released the video she was a missing person

BUT, The first time police discussed the search of the hotel she was dead.

The news conference telling us she had been found was just hours into the investigation of her death and those investigating her death were probably not the same ones who headed up the search. I'm sure there were lots of unknowns among those involved that early in

The search at the Cecil took place when the hunt for Dorner was still a fluid, high anxiety situation. I imagine the initial search of the Cecil was not the elite squad at work and it probably didn't have quite the man power a search of a hotel the size of the Cecil would require... LAPD was stretched pretty thin manpower wise during that Dorner situation

 

[x_files]

- LE said that the Hinged access lid on the tank was closed when they searched the roof.....LE did not think someone would climb up onto and inside the tank

- It's kind of strange that LE also said " the tank is about 10 ft' deep and if her body was at the bottom ....it would have been difficult to see"

does that mean they did briefly look inside the tank?...but didn't see her?.....wasn't she found by someone looking at the bottom of the tank?

a litle strange....but not surprising if they didn't see her.

>>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=lRQqdAQ9Ptc#t=66s

I think they did not do a through search and no one took any notes on the search they are covering their arse.

 

[Conductor71]

I think keeping events in context is important.

When the dogs were used she was a missing person

When the hotel was searched she was a missing person.

BUT, The first time police discussed the search of the hotel she was dead.

The news conference telling us she had been found was just hours into the investigation of her death and those investigating her death were probably not the same ones who headed up the search. I'm sure there were lots of unknowns among those involved that early in.

This makes sense theoretically, but I don't really see how there was a high potential of staff turnover in this case because it was assigned to Robbery/Homicide on Feb 6th when she was established as a missing person.

Further, the reporting Officer had nothing directly to do with either EL or Dorner. Sgt. Rudy Lopez is second in command of Media Relations which IMHO makes "not knowing" even a little more odd. I do not think that the LAPD were trying to cover up at all. Lopez was likely just reporting what he knew at that moment. Still, this begs the question...given the context of the situation. It took some time for them to find her body, so the most logical question a LAPD media higher up would expect to hear is "were the tanks checked" and "why not"?

I think they did not do a through search and no one took any notes on the search they are covering their arse.

I think that they did not search the tanks for the very reason stated by the officer who spoke extensively to CCTV. They did not take this case seriously enough to check the tanks based on they saw it very unlikely someone would take off the lid and climb in. Would they not think the same thing about a perp climbing a ladder and dropping EL's body in there?

In the end, someone has it recorded in an internal report somewhere whether they searched the tanks. If getting to the body sooner really impacts this case in the end...they might later face questions on the quality of their investigation.

 

[mmecaut]

does that mean they did briefly look inside the tank?...but didn't see her?.....wasn't she found by someone looking at the bottom of the tank?

I don't know the standard timeline for what happens to a body in water--at what point is it floating, at what point is it sunken, etc--but is it possible that if/when the police first looked in the tank, Elisa's body would have been at the bottom? And when the maintenance man went to investigate, could her body have risen by then due to decomposition? I wonder if that could offer some possible explanation for why she might not have been seen originally--if the police even looked inside the tank.

 

[Oriah]

I don't know the standard timeline for what happens to a body in water--at what point is it floating, at what point is it sunken, etc--but is it possible that if/when the police first looked in the tank, Elisa's body would have been at the bottom? And when the maintenance man went to investigate, could her body have risen by then due to decomposition? I wonder if that could offer some possible explanation for why she might not have been seen originally--if the police even looked inside the tank.

Unfortunately this also confuses the K9 questions even further. Dogs aren't just seeing, they're smelling- and trained to alert to specific scent particles.
So the questions remain- was Elisa in the tank when they searched the roof? Was she alive or deceased prior to ending up in the tank? What type of K9's were used? And what were the condition of the remains when found?

 

[MissedItByThatMuch]

Only one media source (Canadian too) reported that EL was last seen physically by an employee in the hotel lobby "later at night" of the 31st. Employee said everything looked normal. I am guessing this means 10-midnight. The video is time stamped 12:20 am Feb 1st and she never checked out as planned in the morning.

It is reported that police had searched the roof with dogs but no scent was detected. The search took place around three weeks prior to discovery of the body on the the 19th.

Can you tell us how anyone knew that the video was at 12:22 am? Was this a police admission? If it means anything, the timestamp can read either 12:22 or 8:22 am, according to my assessment. I tend to think 12:22 is the right choice based on her elevator attitude.

Also, did they use Elisa's property for the dog's sniffer? Where did they get that property? What is the best going explanation as per her belongings not recovered from her room? Doesn't it imply that the GuiltyGoon had her belongings removed to make it appear she checked out?