IA IA - Johnny Gosch, 12, Des Moines, 5 Sept 1982 - What if no ring / No conspiracy?

[kcksum]

here is my reply to her.

Noreen,
I am only replying to explain myself and I will then not correspond as you have asked me not to, and I want to respect that.
I was not trying to attck you, I was trying to give the heads up so to speak. This Holms woman is knee deep in the conspiracy forums all over the internet. There are blogg and message board archives from 2003 that have the two of you posting about the same topic, on the same forum, the same day. She is known to have been a very outspoken proponent for the Franklin cover up. She also in one post believes her existance is the result of events that occured at roswell. Now, people's hinky meters are going off because this is a woman who 3 yrs ago was in discussions with you on message boards, and now, says her abducted son is in a picture lying next to your abducted son. That is one unbelievable coincidence don't you think? I was not saying you were doing something off colored and dishonest, I was saying that a background check of this woman might lead you to be a bit suspicous about her claims. She never listed her son as missing. He is not found on the National Center for Missing and exploited children's web site. ....why is that? Why did she never report him missing? Again, this is not an attack on you, it is a heads up so to speak that this Holms woman may very well be trying to interject herself into this conspiracy as she has tried to in many other conspiracy's.
I was only asking you for answers. Instead you felt like I was attacking you. Do you know all of this about miss Holms?Do you know this and still support her claims that the other boy is her son? I believe your intention is to find your son and find out what happened to him, I also think that everyone else you might come in contact with does not have the same intention.I hate to see you be used. I did a term paper on your son in the 7th grade, I have followed his case ever since, so believe me, I am not about attacking the mother who has spent her life looking for him. Maybe someone has already pointed all this stuff out to you, and maybe I should just mind my own business. But I felt it the right thing to do to let you know that this woman claiming to have a son in that picure is more than likely a fraud trying to gain 15 min of fame on the back of your very tragic story. I am sorry if you feel that she is being attacked just to be attcked. Had I not found all of this disturbing information about her that she openly admits to I might have believed her, but the fact she never listed her son as missing didn't sit right either.
I will respect your wishes and leave you be, but again, understand that I would never write this to flame you or upset you or ridicule you. I write this to possibly point something out to you. That is my soul reason and intention. Any indication that I am attacking you or this woman just because I find it fun or a sport is plainly false.
sincerely,
and again I truley hope you find the answers you are looking for.
KCJONES

 

[kcksum]

I have never posted anything to any message board... ever. The only place I place things is on my own website. I am not going to condemn nor defend Patricia... Why don't you call her on the phone and challenge her instead of me since your beef is with her. Her phone number is on my website. Those who have written to challenge me have forgotten one thing... three boys were on a pedophile website. When I first put the photo on people wrote that they didn't like that either. Then when I put on the site that someone had come forward but did not want publicity ... people wrote to attack me then... telling me that if I knew who the parent was ...I BETTER POST IT ASAP ... IN OTHERWORDS THREATENING ME. When Patricia decided to tell her story after hearing what the Florida detective had said... I posted a few paragraphs about her son along with her phone number. Now I am getting the challenging/attacking emails again. CONTACT PATRICIA .. IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH HER OR HER INFORMATION.

I do not have time to deal with it. I work two jobs.... and am working very closely with authorities, as we are receiving photos on a regular basis now. Most are not of my son but they are going straight to the National Center for Missing Children to help identify cold cases.... of missing kids. So you can see my plate is full... CALL PATRICIA AND DISCUSS IT WITH HER. I AM FINISHED DISCUSSING IT WITH YOU.


the biggest problem I have with this is that she is taking no ownership what so ever for this. She keeps telling me to ask her, as if it doesn't matter to her that this women might be nuts. It should matter very much as she posted on her web site that this was the mother of this supposed missing boy.I find her answer (or lack there of ) evasive and very defensive.She just keeps saying she doesn't have time to deal withy this.

 

[docwho3]

I feel for the many people who spent lots of time & effort championing noreen and her story of conspiracy, they really went the extra mile for her. . . . . . . but to get back to the more mundane: One thing that keeps coming to my mind is that Johnny disappeared allegedly during the only time the father did not accomany him on his paper route.

That could mean any one of a few possibilities:
1. Runaway: Johnny ran away on the one time his father was not right there to keep an eye on him. If dad (and/or mom) was dangerous to johnny in an abusive way then I suppose johnny might have looked for just such an opportunity to escape. Could he have had adult help? Sure and maybe that accounts for why some shadowy accounts of him allegedly having been seen talking to a man.

2. Kidnapped: I take this opportunity to point out that the man could have been uninvolved and innocent. (And I have no proof that he actually existed.) He could also have been a bad and dangerous type man but since this was johnny's first time away from dad's watchful eye he might have been more keenly aware of not taking any chances that could result in dad not allowing him such freedom again so I wonder if he would have taken a chance that would have led to his being kidnapped. Then again one might argue that he got careless being out from under dads watchful eye and being a bit "drunk" with his newfound freedom. I do think this happening on the one time he was not accompanied by dad would mean the perp was known to him. Someone that had seen him with dad before and recognized his one chance to nab johnny. Internet not going big like today so such a person would likely have had strong ties to mail order *advertiser censored* unless he was mentally ill in some other way, such as thinking johnny was the devil (That's something I might suspect his mom of thinking more than a stranger since she has shown some odd behavior that to me indicates probable mental troubles) or he might have wanted to try killing just to see if it was fun or if it felt Godlike.

3. Could have been one or two random strangers traveling together through the area and maybe they got johnny and maybe another paper boy . . . . I just can't seem to work up any real enthusiasm for this possibility due to a lack of any sightings of such individuals and I am sure the police looked diligently for such types after johnny disappeared. The old feeling of "none of the people in our town would ever so such a thing" and "lets protect our city's reputation" would have been pressures to deal with. It would have been very politically correct to pour effort into looking for some perp who was not a local person. (Not saying no other possibilities would have been looked at, just saying that this one possibility for investigation would have had few road blocks in its way.)

4. The parent/s may have been involved and may have needed to alter the apparent time of his disappearance to seem to have an alibi and this might account for the father not being able to be with johnny when he disappeared - he had to establish that he was elsewhere during the magic time.

 

[kcksum]

No Noreen, you do have to defend or condemn her because you have placed on your website that this is the mother of another missing boy. You have done that without checking your facts and it is mis information. I have NEVER forgotten that three boys pictures were on a pedophile web site, however, an explanation has come from florida which is right now a whole lot more plausible to believe than yours. You won't even try to defend a position that you have taken on your sons' foundation web site!!!!!!
If this Lady is really the mother of a missing child and you believe her, then say you believe her and answer my questions. Don't tell me you don't have time!!!! Your credability is on the line here and you act like you don't even care!!!! You are allowing a fraudulent player to break your organization and it is going to taint your entire investigation. Don't you want to know if this woman is lying? If you really believe those are abducted boys, don't you want to find the REAL parents of that boy instead of take the word of a woman who didn't even bother to report this supposed child missing? I do not understand your evasive answers, I do not understand why you keep telling me to call her, when you should have had her story checked before you even posted her as the mother of that boy!
IT is on your web site for all to see. YOu want people to believe the word of a woman who says she was born of aliens, over the word of trained investigators out of flordia and the actual man who says he was in those photo's. You want us to believe that you are fighting against a huge conspiracy, but yet you have your own conspiracy's brewing in your own camp that you won't even bother to address.
Do you wonder why people have a hard time taking you seriously?That is not an attack Noreen that is an honest question from me because I am really trying hard to understand all of this.I am really trying hard to understand how a woman who fought so hard to get the Johnny Gosch bill passed and who was a champion for missing children, has now gotten to the point where she "doesn't have time" tio check the backgrounds on people making pretty serious claims to her.
PLEASE THINK ABOUT ALL OF THIS!!!!DO SOME HOMEWORK!!!!!GOOGLE HOLMS AND SEE WHAT YOU COME UP WITH!!!!would you like me to send you a link to the archived posts between you and Holms?
KCJONES



I am going to have to be careful though because i am getting sucked in. I have a feeling she won't answer this one. At least she acknowledged in her last letter that she won't "condemn or defend" Holms. She has gone from saying she was the mistreated parent of a missing child to saying she won't condemn or defend her. I doubt we will ever get an official retraction if it is proven that this woman isn't the mother of that boy.Her claims bolster Noreens theory that that picture is of her son, it would be to hard to admit she is wrong. I am just glad I have all of this information on my computer. That way if she tries to go on Greta or another show claiming this woman is the mother of that boy, we can promptly email Greta our concerns about MS Holms.I still can't believe she says she has never posted on a thread and that she ddn't know miss holms before hand.

 

[Dr. Doogie]

This pretty much answers for me the question of Noreen's believability. Good work!

 

[JusticeForAll]

I just searched the local newspaper on-line (The Enterprise) for Lynnwood, WA, where David Leonard Johnson supposedly disappeared from on 4/1/85. Of course, I got no hits when I ran the name. The archives only go back to 2002. The local library has the older archives. Does anyone live near Lynnwood that can look this up?

 

[Dr. Doogie]

... people wrote to attack me then... telling me that if I knew who the parent was ...I BETTER POST IT ASAP ... IN OTHERWORDS THREATENING ME. ...

This is what Noreen considers a threat? Sounds to me more like people were merely saying that her story lost credibility when she didn't post the identities of the boys and the parents.

Suggestions are threats. Questions are attacks. Her credibility is zero with me right now...

 

[kcksum]

I have never posted anything to any message board. Call Patricia.... let her explain it all to you. I have addressed it several times to you and others... yet you still seem to have problems... Go to the source... Patricia...

There is much more to all of this than you are aware of and I am not at liberty to discuss it at this time.

good luck to you.



Naturally when it boils down to it. It again reverts back to a conspiracy. I knew this is what would happen. her comment(there is much more to this but I am not at liberty to discuss it) says it all. She's covering for this woman so she can keep saying the cops in Fla are wrong. I am sorry this woman has sold her soul.:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

 

[cappuccina]

....for all of your work...Wow, she is beyond evasive... Again, what I said earlier holds vis a vis her response to you....

(Maybe later this evening, after all of y kids' activities are done, I'll e-mail Marc Klass and see what he thinks of all of this... )

 

[Franklinfiles]

I believe that her statement saying she didn't know Johnson Holms prior to this is blatantly false, as we have seen where they have posted on the same sites together and have discussed the franklin cover-up together.

While I certainly appreciate the questions you are raising, I would point out that the above reasonsing isn't necessarily smoking gun. I post on this website periodically, along with all of you, yet I dont' know any of you other than we may have all chimed in on a post.

Just because Noreen would have been seen posting on another website that this other woman was posting on, doesn't necessarily mean they knew each other.

I think the biggest question still remains, is why her son isn't listed on any databases and can his abduction be confirmed in any way?


What is the link to the site that they were posting together on?

 

[kcksum]

....for all of your work...Wow, she is beyond evasive... Again, what I said earlier holds vis a vis her response to you....

(Maybe later this evening, after all of y kids' activities are done, I'll e-mail Marc Klass and see what he thinks of all of this... )

that would be great, I would love to see what he has to say about this. I just am amazed at the lack of concern on her part regarding the fact that this woman who is obviously a few bricks shy has inserted herself into the investigation. I wonder if this woman thinks her son was taken by aliens and that's why she never reported him missing. So odd that Noreen couldn't find the time to explain these blatant discrepancy's to those of us who are generally concerned.

 

[kcksum]

While I certainly appreciate the questions you are raising, I would point out that the above reasonsing isn't necessarily smoking gun. I post on this website periodically, along with all of you, yet I dont' know any of you other than we may have all chimed in on a post.

Just because Noreen would have been seen posting on another website that this other woman was posting on, doesn't necessarily mean they knew each other.

I think the biggest question still remains, is why her son isn't listed on any databases and can his abduction be confirmed in any way?


I agree, it isn't a smoking gun. However, Noreen also keeps adamantly insisting she has never posted on a message board. So unless there is another Noreen Gisch out there, how does she explain that ( I realize there could be) but this is such a coincidence that those two names would be seen posting on the same board the same day about the same subject, and then come together again in such a huge way 3 yrs later. My questions to Noreen were more of a heads up. Her response that there is more to the story that she can't devulge is just another example of her being evasive. Either the boy was officially reported missing or he wasn't. Noreens lack of a response on that subject leads me to believe that he wasn't.

 

[Dr. Doogie]

One small bit of defense of NG's statements:

In reviewing the thread where both Noreen and Patricia posted, it may be that someone was quoting her and listed the poster's name as Noreen. It appears that it may be cut and pasted from Noreen's website. And it is also possible for two people to post on the same forum without "knowing" each other.

Even so, the fact that Patricia was posting about Johnny Gosch and the Franklin conspiracy years before this photo appeared speaks volumes. And the the fact that this woman seems to have had no qualms about posting and writing about any and every kooky idea out there (aliens, 9/11, GW Bush is desended from an alien race, Franklin conspiracy, ad nauseum), yet never seemed to mention that her son was abducted until three weeks ago. This woman is John Mark Karr in drag - if that is not an oxymoron.

 

[kcksum]

While I certainly appreciate the questions you are raising, I would point out that the above reasonsing isn't necessarily smoking gun. I post on this website periodically, along with all of you, yet I dont' know any of you other than we may have all chimed in on a post.

Just because Noreen would have been seen posting on another website that this other woman was posting on, doesn't necessarily mean they knew each other.

I think the biggest question still remains, is why her son isn't listed on any databases and can his abduction be confirmed in any way?


What is the link to the site that they were posting together on?

here you go.
not only were they posting on the same site....the topic was JOHNNY GOSCH!!!!!!

<LI class=first_message>SHILLUM —ZOBOLI, Fri Mar 11 21:25

• "I think Jeff Gannon is Johnny Gosch,.... —Gunderson said, Fri Mar 11 23:17
  • WHY JOHNNY CAN'T COME HOME —Noreen Gosch, Sat Mar 12 01:28
    • Jeff Gannon, Washington correspondent —Jeff Gannon, Sat Mar 12 02:04
      • Jeff Gannon? Gosch or whatever you really are- —Patricia Johnson-Holm, Sat Mar 12 15:29

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cach...us&ct=clnk&cd=2


I would like to know why Noreen thinks this doesn't constitute posting on a message board. Franklinfiles.....if you know Noreen please send this link to her and point out how her denials about posting on a site and posting with Holms are ruining her credibility.

there is also a strong connection between Tim White and Holms. We all know White has staked his career on the belief that Johnny is Gannon. Maybe he sent this lady to Noreen and is trying to shape the investigation to fit his theory.There is a link on this thread a few posts back that will show you an article on Black OPs that links Holms to White.

 

[kcksum]

One small bit of defense of NG's statements:

In reviewing the thread where both Noreen and Patricia posted, it may be that someone was quoting her and listed the posters name as Noreen. It appears that it may be cut and pasted from Noreen's website. And it is also possible for two people to post on the same forum without "knowing" each other.

Even so, the fact that Patricia was posting about Johnny Gosch and the Franklin conspiracy years before this photo appeared speaks volumes. And the the fact that this woman seems to have had no qualms about posting and writing about any and every kooky idea out there (aliens, 9/11, GW Bush is desended from an alien race, Franklin conspiracy, ad nauseum), yet never seemed to mention that her son was abducted until three weeks ago. This woman is John Mark Karr in drag - if that is not an oxymoron.

I see what you're saying. I can see where her own remarks on her site could have been cut and pasted here. But I agree, this woman would not have survived any sort of background check if someone had just bothered to do one before believeing hook line and sinker that she was the mother of this boy. I think her association with Tim White is a bigger red flag than anything.I think Tim White would do anything to further bolster his Gosch is Gannon theory....including sending this women he has knaon in the past to say that her own son is in the photo with Johnny.

 

[Dr. Doogie]

Here is a snippet showing the tie-in of White and PJH from a yahoo post by White:

Patricia Johnson-Holm
Re: Al Bielek talking to Patricia can Blow lid off
Black OPS
Mon Jun 19, 2006 14:53
24.18.129.120


Thank you Tim White of Denver for getting Patricia
Johnson-Holm and Al Bielek in contact. Without
everyone realizing working together is the answer to
making real progress. The evil side thinks that they
can win at all costs.[Remember at all costs means huge
damage to present day Earth]

This post goes on to reference time travel, the Masons and the Illuminatti, Biblical end-times and such. Looks like Tim White is a cuckoo bird also.

 

[mjak]

I looked at the google archived version and then looked at the present day linked page and guess what? The post by Patricia Johnson-Holm no longer exists outside of the archived copy. I wonder why it later disappeared. Are they now going to complain that google is owned by aliens and conspirators?

Edited to add: I did a printscreen save of the archived link which shows the post was listed (although the actual post was not brought up by clicking the archived link. Maybe the wayback machine would have it?) and I also saved a screen shot of the present day website that no longer shows the post by Patricia Johnson-Holm.

I am the person who originaly posted the message board thread containing both PJH and NG. AT that time Google came up with it on the current screen but PJH's input was not there. I then looked at the Cached version and there it was. What does it mean?? I don't know. One could wonder if PGH or NG removed the post prior to announcing the middle boy was PJH's son not realising the cache would hold on to the original. Of couse it may not mean that at all,who knows. This may not definitivly say these women knew each other prior to 3 weeks ago. However, it indicates they both ran in the same circles , wrote and read about Johnny and belong to that patriot group. Even if NG did not post on that thread PJH was clearly very aware of NG and the consipracy way before incredibly her son became a part of it!! I believe that these pictures have been in NG's hands for a lot longer then since september of this year. Just my opinion.

mjak

 

[docwho3]

I am the person who originaly posted the message board thread containing both PJH and NG. AT that time Google came up with it on the current screen but PJH's input was not there. I then looked at the Cached version and there it was. What does it mean?? I don't know. One could wonder if PGH or NG removed the post prior to announcing the middle boy was PJH's son not realising the cache would hold on to the original. Of couse it may not mean that at all,who knows. This may not definitivly say these women knew each other prior to 3 weeks ago. However, it indicates they both ran in the same circles , wrote and read about Johnny and belong to that patriot group. Even if NG did not post on that thread PJH was clearly very aware of NG and the consipracy way before incredibly her son became a part of it!! I believe that these pictures have been in NG's hands for a lot longer then since september of this year. Just my opinion.

mjak

I agree. There was certainly a post there by someone using the name noreen gosch and as you pointed out there was also a post at one time by the person using the name of "Patricia Johnson-Holm" as well and both were listed as posting on the same day in the same thread. Note: Edited to strike and/or delete words based on evidence which proved to have been incorrectly interpreted. Although I was not the one who first brought the info out I failed to look at the IP addys of the posts thoroughly and I accept that I made a mistake and so I am editing those posts which I am able to edit to correct the error.

I take the posts provided by Dr.Doogie
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1217345&postcount=236

and Roy Harold
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1215986&postcount=181

I say this info seems enough to satisfy me that there is may be a collusion of sorts at work. [Words were deleted here.] That's my opinion based on all the info together that has been revealed so far.

I will add that this is the first real new information I have heard to come forth in the Johnny gosch case and I think it may prove important in the unraveling of the entire case someday. At the very least some of us (at least me) will no longer waste any time wondering if her wild story might be true. And I further suspect that some people will begin take a much closer look at her as a possible suspect unless she can, or has, established an iron clad alibi.

Even if uninvolved in the disappearance her wild stories may, in my opinion, finally be laid to rest so a real investigation may proceed.

 

[Dr. Doogie]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]"October 26, 2006[/size][/font]​

From the day I posted the photo of the three boys the following has taken place.

I received emails from people saying I shouldn't have placed this photo on my website because it was disturbing. Then shortly after the middle boy was identified but no info could be released due to the parent not wanting publicity. I received emails telling me "YOU HAD BETTER POST WHAT YOU KNOW ABOUT THIS BOYS IDENTITY..... ASAP OR YOU WILL LOSE ALL CREDIBILITY". In other words a threat.

Approximately three weeks later, the mother of the boy in the middle did reconsider and wanted to tell her story. We placed a few paragraphs of information about David Johnson on the site.

Since that date, I have received a number of emails from people who seem to have issues concerning Patricia Johnson Holm. I have received threatening email and written attacks directed towards me.

My intent from the moment I received the photos was to identify the photos of the boys, who were found on a pedophile website, perhaps some people have lost sight of that part of this tragedy. We have received more photos of unidentified boys which have been turned over to the National Center For Missing Children for comparison in their database of missing children. Human trafficking is a huge problem, nearly 100,000 children yearly are trafficked. It is still my mission to continue protecting children and gaining information on the hundreds of children who are unidentified to date.

If anyone has any issues concerning Patricia or her son, it would be best if you contact her directly as she would be better able to answer your questions. Her email address is: ruprose2002a@yahoo.com

Thank you

Noreen"

 

[Dr. Doogie]

"...I received emails telling me "YOU HAD BETTER POST WHAT YOU KNOW ABOUT THIS BOYS IDENTITY..... ASAP OR YOU WILL LOSE ALL CREDIBILITY". In other words a threat.

Again, she and I have a completely different definition of a threat.

Since that date, I have received a number of emails from people who seem to have issues concerning Patricia Johnson Holm. I have received threatening email and written attacks directed towards me.

I do not know what other emails she received, but the ones from kcksum were definitely threatening or "attacks". If anything, they were gentle suggesting that Noreen was being taken advantage of. Noreen seems have gone completely paranoid.

My intent from the moment I received the photos was to identify the photos of the boys, who were found on a pedophile website, perhaps some people have lost sight of that part of this tragedy.

Nobody has lost sight of that fact - what Noreen seems to have lost sight of is that her source for the ID of the middle boy is someone who has been a frequenter of websites concerning JG and the Franklin scandal for at least three years, is involved in some very "out-of-the-mainstream" beliefs and evidently has never bothered to notify any missing children agency (or LE, for that matter) that her "son" was kidnapped. Noreen is trying to assume a false "moral-superiority" to bolster her claims, when in fact she is being either deceitful or gullible.

We have received more photos of unidentified boys which have been turned over to the National Center For Missing Children for comparison in their database of missing children. Human trafficking is a huge problem, nearly 100,000 children yearly are trafficked. It is still my mission to continue protecting children and gaining information on the hundreds of children who are unidentified to date.

Great. I hope that they lead to recovery of all 100,000. I just hope that her sources for these pictures are more reliable than Ms. Holm.

If anyone has any issues concerning Patricia or her son, it would be best if you contact her directly as she would be better able to answer your questions. Her email address is: ruprose2002a@yahoo.com

Anyone care to contact Ms. Holm with these facts for a response?