IA IA - Johnny Gosch, 12, W Des Moines, 5 Sept 1982 - What happened? - #2

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Cant we all give this poor mom a break.

I have nothing but sympathy for Noreen. If you notice, I have been gentle in my assessments of her (and I am certainly not shy about applying the kook label to people who I feel deserve it). It is understandable that Noreen would be "tilting at windmills", but I must draw the line at grabbing a sword myself and joining the battle.

But I must compare Johnny's case to one that I am intimately familiar with: Anna Christian Waters. Annasmom's daughter disappeared in 1973 without a trace - she would be comparable to Noreen. I have been the lead amatuer investigator in the case, so put me into the Gunderson role. Annasmom, like any mother of a missing child, desperately wants to know the truth about what happened to her daughter. During our search, many "fringe" hypotheses have been developed and examined (the Zodiac Killer, the Church of Satan, the Peoples Temple, etc.). And each of those hypotheses have been rejected for the simpler explaination of either abduction by a stranger or by Anna's non-custodial father. If Noreen and Gunderson had been faced with the same data that we have, they would have concluded that Anna was being raised in a satanic coven by Zodiac and Charlie Manson in cahoots with Richard Nixon. And they would wonder why nobody in authority would return their phone calls.

Annasmom and I have the benefit of reigning each other in if the other one gets too far to the fringe. Unfortunately, Noreen only has people like Gunderson and Tim White to bounce ideas off of and they are nutjobs. And Noreen seems to reject any sober advice from people who only have her best interests at heart. For that, I do "give her a break".
 
Human trafficking and sex slavery are real, but they are matters best dealt with by legitimate law enforcement personnel & agencies, not by self-proclaimed "independent" "experts".

You are right that is very true unless the law enforcement personel are busy having sex with some of these children and angencies are covering it up for them. As in what happened in Nebraska back in the 70s and 80s
 
can you be specific about your nutjob claims?

That is a fair request. I will respond after I gather the exact documentation to back my claims - I do not want to post any incorrect statements.

Ill correct you on one more thing Ted has 28 years in the FBI from 1951-1979 not 15 years.

Thanks for the correction. (Now you know why I want to get the documentation before responding to the above. - LOL!)
 
Wow, nice to have some discussion here even though I do not agree with it all.

I think Iowa gurl has said it best....we know this about Noreen: her son is gone. That being said, who can say she is a kook? She has uncovered more than most of us will ever be able to handle. Through the years, I'm sure she has had her fair share of trying to wade through some "fakes."

As for Gunderson, I think he may have a few strange associations here and there. After all, when you delve into some of this territory its bound to happen. But I think he is smart and sincere. As I said on another site (and was severely harrassed for it), "rbeck is the most knowledgable person around when it comes to this case....you can trust his information and his judgement." That's my opinion...

Attack me if you must, but Paul Bonacci is a hero in my book. Yes, he was convicted of fondling a young relative. That's a terrible thing that I don't doubt it but look at what this young man has lived through since his early childhood. So many of these victims end up abusing others themselves, which is how the cycle of abuse continues.

The three professional psychiatrists who evaluated and treated Bonacci extensively, have each independently agreed that he is reliable and that he is telling the truth. His story has been backed up by several different sources. He was able to tell Noreen things about Johnny that only someone who knew him very closely would be able to share. That has to be worth something.

And Tim White? Why in the world would "Jimmy Gibson" send pics to him?
None of that story makes sense to me.....why believe him?

I believe in people who have nothing to gain....who have information that has some sort of validity. What does Noreen have to gain by searching everywhere for what happened to her son? Ted Gunderson has been treated like dirt....what has he gained? How about Bonacci? He's not out there seeking to gain anything....mostly he wants to hide out and live his life in peace. He's lucky to have survived....
 
Wow, nice to have some discussion here even though I do not agree with it all.

Hopefully, we can all continue to play nice here. This case draws out passionate responses which can devolve into arguements quickly. That is why we all should reread our post before hitting the send button to make sure that what we say is what we really mean.

And Tim White? Why in the world would "Jimmy Gibson" send pics to him? None of that story makes sense to me.....why believe him?

There seems to be corroboration that Tim White was the first to be sent the pics. He claims in his post that an anonymous emailer sent him the pics, which he then forwarded to Noreen, Gunderson, Rothstein, et al. Someone who calls himself Jimmy Gibson on another site claims to have initially sent the pics to White and one other person. Gibson says that he did not send them to Noreen and theorized that White must have forwarded them to her. These two stories match up if Gibson was White's anonymous sender, but either way, both are saying that it was White who first received the pics, who then forwarded them to Noreen.

Now specifically to your question: Why would Gibson send them to White? Tim has a reputation as being a kook - even among other kooks. His posts are often filled with profanity-laced tirades against any and all perceived enemies who seem to be most everyone. Other kook bloggers rail against him as a child pornographer, a disinformation agent, a homeless crossdresser, etc. If I was picking someone to "expose the truth", I would not come near this guy. But "Jimmy Gibson" seems to have picked him. Why?

The following is pure speculation based on what I have seen in this case. The first question is which "Jimmy Gibson" sent the pictures? The Gibson who claims to have sent the pictures seems to have been relatively literate, unlike the JG who was posting occasionally on the Franklin Files site. The difference in writing skills between the two makes me suspect that they were two different people claiming to be the same guy. I think that the shadowy nature of what we know about Gibson makes his identity an easy one for any prankster to appropriate to give their stunts added validity. It may be that "Gibson" was not the Jimmy Gibson and that he/they recognized that White had the least discriminating eye of all of those involved and would be the most likely to believe the story.

I say the above because I do not believe that the pictures are of Johnny. I do believe that they do depict actual boys in bondage (mostly, one boy over a period of years), but am undecided on whether this bondage was forced or consentual. In most of the pics, the boy seems rather undistressed, yet in at least one picture he looks highly distressed and perhaps beaten or drugged. However, when I did a side-by-side comparison of the pics of this boy and Johnny, I concluded that they were two different people. I know that many believe that many people believe that "Noreen would know her own son", but this is where Noreen's gullibility to believe anything that "proves" her theories comes into play - I cannot go on Noreen's determinations alone. And the pics do not look like Johnny to me.

So if these were sent by "Jimmy Gibson" and Jimmy claims that they are of Johnny, I conclude that this "Jimmy Gibson" found pictures of a boy who vaguely resembled Johnny and sent them to White knowing that he would immediately dissemenate them as authentic across the net. I believe that "Jimmy Gibson" had no idea if they were of Johnny or not, he just perpetuated a hoax that many still believe to this day. And he used White as a "useful idiot" to pull this off.
 
Doogie - I have never been in contact with any "Jimmy Gibson". You are confusing the material I copied over from the comment section of the Des Moines Register. I only talk to legitimate law enforcement people, academics and ordinary folk like you & me. I don't talk to "principles" of conspiracy theories, although I have worked with victims of unsubstantiated rumor and/or slander.

Why believe Tim White? Because he is a member of the circle of people Norren calls her "investigators"! If you actually follow the link that Doogie provided, you will see that White has all of their emails and even provides Jim Rothstein's home phone number. He is one of them, an intimate of DeCamp, Gunderson, Rothstein, et al.

As for the crack about Nebraska - if someone has records of convictions, please post links here. I don't appreciate unsubstantiated rumors that slander members of law enforcement and I don't want to see that here. If I have to, I will ask the moderators to remove people who insist on posting unsubstantiated slanders of law enforcement personnel.
 
Let me just reinforce that (above).
For some people, discussion of the Gosch case serves primarly as an excuse to post unsubstantiated slanders about law enforcement, politicians, business leaders, and celebrities.

If that is what someone wants to do, here, I suggest that they take their discussion to one of the many "Patriot" government-bashing, or conspiracy theory sites. Please.
 
Let me just reinforce that (above).
For some people, discussion of the Gosch case serves primarly as an excuse to post unsubstantiated slanders about law enforcement, politicians, business leaders, and celebrities.

If that is what someone wants to do, here, I suggest that they take their discussion to one of the many "Patriot" government-bashing, or conspiracy theory sites. Please.

Or maybe they can create their own message board website ?
 
Good grief, Roy, if we can't discuss claims made against politicians, celebrities and law enforcement, then this discussion is done before we can get started.

Are you speaking about Robert Wadman? Because he is a big part of the coverup....

I have LE that are great friends, and some politicians, too (including a White House politician), and they will agree that there are good and bad people in every line of work. Let's face it, pedophiles come from all walks of life.
 
Good grief, Roy, if we can't discuss claims made against politicians, celebrities and law enforcement, then this discussion is done before we can get started.

That's what I thought.

I repeat: For some people, discussion of the Gosch case serves primarly as an excuse to post unsubstantiated slanders about law enforcement, politicians, business leaders, and celebrities.

There are many sites where that kind of thing is not only appropriate but welcomed. This site isn't one of them (or hasn't been, unless it has degenerated).
 
That's what I thought.

I repeat: For some people, discussion of the Gosch case serves primarly as an excuse to post unsubstantiated slanders about law enforcement, politicians, business leaders, and celebrities.

There are many sites where that kind of thing is not only appropriate but welcomed. This site isn't one of them (or hasn't been, unless it has degenerated).

Why don't you post all of my quote.....
Why do you say, "That's what I thought..." Why hi-jack the discussion?
The Franklin Coverup is exactly that....a coverup by politicians and law enforcement. If we cannot discuss these people, then there is no discussion at all. Just because we discuss the accusations on a message board doesn't mean that we're certain they're true.

What would you like to discuss about this case, if not those who are involved?
 
The topic of this thread is not "The Franklin Coverup".

The conspiracy theory you refer to by using that term, is already available all over the internet, from youtube to franklincase.org to dozens of conspiracy sites. All of that material has been posted here already, multiple times. There is no point to posting it here again, other than to waste this sites bandwidth and to repeat the same slanders, slanders that have contributed nothing to solving the disappearance of Johnny Gosch in the 20+ years they have been circulating.

If you have something else to contribute about Johnny Gosch, please do.
Please don't waste everyone's time reposting materials that already exist here in multiple places.
 
The term "slander" is the spoken form of defamation. I think you mean "libel," which is the written form of the same. There is no plural for "slander."

I have no intention to slander or libel anyone....only to discuss what happened to Johnny Gosch. Was he actually kidnapped by Paul Bonacci on the orders of Col. Aquino? Did he become involved in the case known as "The Franklin Coverup?" His mother thinks he did....therefore it is worth discussing in my opinion. The only thing I have to add is my opinion and my thoughts about the circumstances surrounding this mystery. Thats pretty much all that anyone has to add.

Still, pardon me for wasting everyone's time.....
 
The topic of this thread is not "The Franklin Coverup".

The conspiracy theory you refer to by using that term, is already available all over the internet, from youtube to franklincase.org to dozens of conspiracy sites. All of that material has been posted here already, multiple times. There is no point to posting it here again, other than to waste this sites bandwidth and to repeat the same slanders, slanders that have contributed nothing to solving the disappearance of Johnny Gosch in the 20+ years they have been circulating.

If you have something else to contribute about Johnny Gosch, please do.
Please don't waste everyone's time reposting materials that already exist here in multiple places.

Amen Roy :clap: :clap: I couldn't have said it any better myself.
 
Teresa, are there any PIs still investigating this? Is there ANY investigating going on by (legitimate investigating) PIs or law enforcement agencies that you know of?
 
The topic of this thread is not "The Franklin Coverup".

[...]

If you have something else to contribute about Johnny Gosch, please do.
Please don't waste everyone's time reposting materials that already exist here in multiple places.
The title of this thread is "What Happened to Johnny?? No. 2" and one of the answers posed by a few participants is, "The Franklin Coverup." Now, while I personally, highly doubt that Paul Bonacci (or anyone involved in the so-called "Franklin Coverup") kidnapped Johnny Gosch on the orders of Ret LTC Michael Aquino, I simply do not mind that others present that as a possible scenario. And neither should you (or anyone else, for that matter).

Which brings me to the question, why do you care, Roy? Or, perhaps, that question should be, why do you care "so much" that you feel compelled to make thinly veiled threats to report those with whom you disagree to board moderators as well as demanding that they take their opinions elsewhere? What exactly is it about this case, specificially, and the topic of human trafficking, generally, that enrages you so?

Hmmm... Iow if this holds any clues?

I have worked with victims of unsubstantiated rumor and/or slander.
 
There's no mystery to my objections. Try re-reading post #617, #620, #629 & #634.

For that "victims of rumor or slander", refer to post #48 in this thread.

I am particularly perturbed by people who have no verifiable record of ever contributing to the arrest of sex offenders and who hero-worship convicted sex offenders, issuing unsubstantiated slanders against the very law enforcement personnel & agencies that have and do put sex offenders away. If you wish, I'll repeat that:

People who claim to be defenders of victimized children, but shelter, protect and admire confessed kidnappers and convicted child molestors and child pornographers, are frankly full of .

a little reality check -

# of arrests for sex crimes, resulting from Noreen Gosch's [and the rest of the Franklin conspiracy "investigators"] investigations 1983-2004 = 0
# of arrests for sex crimes, resulting from legitimate law enforcement investigations, 1983-2004 = 4,105,000 (rounded by thousands) (US figures)
 
The title of this thread is "What Happened to Johnny?? No. 2" and one of the answers posed by a few participants is, "The Franklin Coverup." Now, while I personally, highly doubt that Paul Bonacci (or anyone involved in the so-called "Franklin Coverup") kidnapped Johnny Gosch on the orders of Ret LTC Michael Aquino, I simply do not mind that others present that as a possible scenario. And neither should you (or anyone else, for that matter).

I disagree. Everyone who uses this wonderful resource & community ought to be very concerned about anyone posting unsubstantiated slanderous or libellous inferences toward living persons with no criminal convictions.

Websites, like this one, exist on hosting company's servers. The website owners have to ensure their site conforms to the Terms Of Service of the hosting company and generally that includes ensuring the site is not used for illegal purposes such as posting slander or libel. Typically, the hosting company is not required to give either warning or explanation if they "pull the plug" on a website because of violation of the TOS between them.

This site is very important to many, many people - not least of which being the owners, who are our hosts. Posting unsubstatiated slander or libel puts the whole site at risk and everyone ought to be concerned about that.

In my opinion.
 
I am well aware of Martensville, as well as similar allegations that arose during that period, Roy. And I could prolly write a book when it comes to the who's who of conspiracy theories. Imnsho, there are quite a large number of shady individuals hanging out in conspiracy land. And I am not speaking of so-called government "operatives," either. I am speaking of individuals who appear to have made quite a career out of exploiting people who may (or not) already be somewhat mentally unstable. Even so, I find the way you (and others who proclaim to fight for falsely accused) engage to be more than counter productive. To wit.

I disagree. Everyone who uses this wonderful resource & community ought to be very concerned about anyone posting unsubstantiated slanderous or libellous inferences toward living persons with no criminal convictions.

Websites, like this one, exist on hosting company's servers. The website owners have to ensure their site conforms to the Terms Of Service of the hosting company and generally that includes ensuring the site is not used for illegal purposes such as posting slander or libel. Typically, the hosting company is not required to give either warning or explanation if they "pull the plug" on a website because of violation of the TOS between them.

This site is very important to many, many people - not least of which being the owners, who are our hosts. Posting unsubstatiated slander or libel puts the whole site at risk and everyone ought to be concerned about that.

In my opinion.
Besides the fact that your diatribe is utter and complete B.S., it reeks of fear mongering and an attempt to control the discussion by trying to force the hand of the moderators. And that's not to mention that it is also replete with logical fallacies, mostly in the form of exaggerations and inaccuracies. For example, when it comes to inet discussion, people regularly weigh in on individuals who have not been convicted of a crime. They judge them, find them guilty (or not) and argue about it. On a daily basis to be precise. And were it not for the court of public opinion, sites such as this would not exist. Furthermore, opinions which may (or not) be defamatory in nature are a civil matter, not a criminal matter. And finally, hosting companies are protected by the CDA. But do continue catastrophizing. It's rather amusing.
 
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