ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - # 25

[ReadySet]

I will - it is a method used by the FBI and LE and hats off to you if you think the FBI are wrong to use it :drumroll:

I see statement analysis like a lot of other things--a helpful tool, but not always the end-all and be-all.
When I switched from teaching elementary to middle school, I found that the older students were harder to read, and I'm a person who tends to take people at face value. I would walk into the staff room and say, "Did you know Student X can't do any homework this week because he has to go to Paris?" "Really, Ms. ReadySet? You believe that Student X has to go to Paris?" etc.
So I started reading about Body Language Analysis and Statement Analysis. Statement Analysis helped me the most. I take it with a grain of salt when I read an analysis, depending on who is doing it, but there are some principles that ring true to me, and I do use it. So, for me, it would be cutting off our nose to spite our face, to disregard it.
And I really, really believe that if someone doesn't say something, you can't say it for them!

ETA: It's not that statement analysis can tell if someone's lying, IMO, it's that it can tell if their are red flags that need to be looked into further. JMO

 

[12madelyn]

I'm really not trying to find an excuse for IR but at this time LE seems to think he's not a suspect and I'm trying to think of a reason why. He said that he saw DeOrr at the campsite but I haven't heard him verify that he was alive.

You really think IR may have seen him deceased? If this was the case, you think he would have told NE in the interview that he saw him, leading everyone to think he was alive? I very much doubt it. Nor would his lawyer allow him to comment on the presence of the child.

 

[Lillahazel]

You really think IR may have seen him deceased? If this was the case, you think he would have told NE in the interview that he saw him, leading everyone to think he was alive? I very much doubt it. Nor would his lawyer allow him to comment on the presence of the child.

I'm saying I'm not completely convinced IR ever saw him. If he said he saw him alive or walking around or heard him talking I would think otherwise. Maybe IR saying he saw him was really an illusion create by JM and/or VDK of a child being there. Especially if they can't even find anything proving DJ was at the campsite yet IR, the one person out of the 4 that's not a suspect is stating he was there.


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[neesaki]

Very interesting observation, so we have :

-Signs
-trespassing
-private land

Well that wouldn't be anywhere near the campground, would it?

Hate to quote myself but Butler posted that there are private properties butting up to the national forest , so I wonder if there are any close to the campground, and if LE searched there or asked property owners to check their properties. I did look at Google maps and couldn't quite tell what is or isn't private property. The national forest is shown in green , I think. Does anyone know if the white areas on the map are land that is private? Tia

 

[Hippie Heart]

https://leb.fbi.gov/2011/june/evaluating-truthfulness-and-detecting-deception

Um, yeah. The FBI must employ a bunch of charlatans...

Thanks, this was an interesting read.

So, I'm not sure this has been discussed, but based on the above article and the assumption that there is indeed something to a person's facial/body/tone/tense in putting together a bigger picture of innocence or guilt, what do you all make of JM's fleeting smile in the very first interview with NE of EIN.

She briefly smiled then, IMO, corrected herself, when asked how they were holding up. That was always really, really, REALLY strange to me. Not just the smile, but how quickly it started and stopped. Like she was editing herself.

This combined with my earlier post today about "who would do this to us?" along with 846218325 things already discussed make me very suspicious.

All of this is MOO, obviously.

 

[12madelyn]

I definitely wouldn't consider someone with supposed physical and mental issues to be a good candidate to watch a very active toddler outside. But IR was unknown to VDK before the trip so that leaves GGP as the "trusted adult".

As for oxygen, I've never heard it used for mental issues -- primarily for COPD and CHF -- so it's more logical it was for a physical condition but I guess it's possible oxygen could be a benefit for both.

Exactly! Trusted adult? I don't know what to believe about the need for O2. I suspected COPD, too. I did not know this, but another poster said SB mentioned that GGP was not eligible for a poly. What a contradiction. Someone with a diminished mental capacity = someone who can be trusted to keep a close watch ob a 3 y/o/. Huh??

 

[Elle*Bee]

Exactly! Statement Analysis, like body language, profiling and polygraphs, is a tool that can often be helpful in guiding the direction of an investigation. It's not the end all, be all.

My husband (former LE) and I were having this conversation the other night. Take my body language, for example. I tend to sit with my legs crossed or one foot tucked underneath me (lady-like, I know. Lol). If a body language expert has no baseline knowledge of my behaviors and habits, he or she might conclude that I'm "closed off" or hiding something. In reality, my coccyx (tailbone) was broken in an accident years ago and it's very difficult for me to sit in a more open stance (uncrossed legs, both butt cheeks on the chair) for any length of time. A tool, but not foolproof.

After the most recent interview, I asked my husband if it was odd that Deorr's name wasn't mentioned once (that I heard). Hubby agreed with other posters who felt that the avoidance of the baby's name was an example of "distancing language". He actually went up in the attic to fetch a book for a class he took when he worked for the police department years ago. It's called Interviewing and Interrogation, by Don Rabon (published in 1992). I only just started reading it but it's quite interesting.

 

[ClaireNC]

Glad you brought this up. Not sure if it's just a "Vernalization" - ie, blowing smoke, bsing par extraordinaire, or if there's a nugget o' truth in there.
In any case, I would imagine that in some cases - - foreclosed properties, vacation homes with lots and lots of land, undeveloped private properties where the landowner bought cheap and is waiting for the right time to build - - these would be the perfect spot to hide a body, evidence, etc., because nobody goes there regularly.

For the "boundaries" of said no trespassing zones, I would assume that there's an assessor's office (maybe goes by a different name) , if not in Leadore, but somewhere in the area, where they could furnish tax maps (don't know the proper name for it).

The tax maps are available through the GIS system. It is public information. http://tax.idaho.gov/gis/maps/Lemhi.html

The image below shows the area around the campground. It shows that there are some areas that are privately owned very near to the campground. Notice the areas outlined in red.

 

[12madelyn]

I'm saying I'm not completely convinced IR ever saw him. If he said he saw him alive or walking around or heard him talking I would think otherwise. Maybe IR saying he saw him was really an illusion create by JM and/or VDK of a child being there. Especially if they can't even find anything proving DJ was at the campsite yet IR, the one person out of the 4 that's not a suspect is stating he was there.

Yea, who knows? He may have a very big problem with recall. He was quick to correct NE, though. NE asked "so you spent at least a couple of hours with the Deorrs at the CG" and IR said "no, more like a couple of days.". So, I would say yea, he saw the baby.

 

[courtneyb]

Been out of town in Nashville for a week. Finally watched the extended interview at the airport last night. Still have tons of posts to read, but,

The number of times VDK says the phrase, "laid to rest" made the hairs stand up on the back of my neck.

Same with JM and her multiple "walk right by/past him" comments.

They both are leaking like a sieve, IMO.

AND, WHO exactly is "missing"?? They never said that poor baby's name once. He remembers enough to buy chicken nuggets from the world's most diverse taco truck, but apparently cannot recall DeOrr's name.


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[Rayemonde]

https://leb.fbi.gov/2011/june/evaluating-truthfulness-and-detecting-deception

Um, yeah. The FBI must employ a bunch of charlatans...

Interesting, thank you. From your link:

the various statement analysis categories that were coded could differentiate liars from truth tellers at statistically significant levels. Greater use of minimizing and editing adverbs and changes in nouns and verbs all were associated with lying, while equivocation and spatial details indicated truth telling. These findings confirmed previous research on statement analysis.

While these findings remained consistent with previous research, the authors also combined the nonverbal leakage and statement analysis cues in attempting to differentiate truth tellers from liars. The authors found that inconsistent facial expressions combined with statement analysis annotations could correctly classify 90 percent of the participants in the videos as to whether they lied or told the truth. This seems to indicate that behavioral cues in both verbal statements and nonverbal behaviors collectively provide a much better source for gauging truthfulness.

 

[Lillahazel]

Yea, who knows? He may have a very big problem with recall. He was quick to correct NE, though. NE asked "so you spent at least a couple of hours with the Deorrs at the CG" and IR said "no, more like a couple of days.". So, I would say yea, he saw the baby.

Unless those couple of days included the search.


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[courtneyb]

Are you usually able to just walk up to a taco truck and pick up chicken nuggets? I mean, don't you usually have to actually order them and then you pay and then they are prepared for you and they hand them to you? I've never seen any food truck that just has pre cooked food sitting out that you can pick up absentmindedly without a lot of thought and action on your part. That whole story sounded like a bad, off the wall, nonsensical lie.


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[Deleted member 102539]

midge Montana, I like your style.

and thanks butler...I do understand that. if there were private homes in those woods, my guess is that the owner(s) wouldn't welcome LE tossing the place. so warrants would have had to be issued. and even if they DID open their doors to LE, another guess is that LE would've said so by now no matter which it was.

IMO, DK slipped. he trespassed but I'd like to know where, and why. and once again, who would be stupid enough to 'hide' a child on private property when there's a national forest right in front of you?

Someone here on WS was talking about relatives in the area. The parents could have buried little Deorr where they would have the opportunity to "visit" him afterwards.

 

[MBK]

The number of times VDK says the phrase, "laid to rest" made the hairs stand up on the back of my neck.

Same with JM and her multiple "walk right by/past him" comments.

YES~!!!!! Thank you! He even STOPS himself from saying "laid to rest" one time! I didn't notice the multiple "walk right by" from JM's corner. Wow.

 

[LaLaw2000]

Agreed. We must remember the police, FBI, behavioural analysts and PI's have all spent hours with this couple, talking about nothing other than DeOrr. They're not going to base their damning theories on polygraphs alone - especially when some states and even whole countries (mine included) don't trust polygraphs enough to use them in a court of law.

I could possibly be more swayed towards innocence if just one policeman vaguely alluded to guilt. But for ALL of them, including the PI hired by the actual family, to slam the parents as they have there has to be something in it. We know a fraction of what they all do, we have never sat and talked to the parents, we have to place some trust in those who have.

Changing topic completely - has anyone ever asked the parents whether DeOrr had a toy car with him when he vanished? His mum made it very clear he was never without one. If he is buried somewhere with a toy car, a metal detector would pick that up, right?

BBM:

Good idea except that it would probably be impossible to search that entire area with a metal detector and come up with anything. I'm not sure a metal detector would pick up anything if it were covered with rocks or so forth and I doubt there would be an obvious grave covered with dirt, IMO.

Now if a small metal matchbox car or truck is found in any of the searches, I would be skeptical of it because little DeOrr's parents or someone with a vested interest in the outcome of the case could have placed it there as a 'replica' as Vernal alluded to the blanket DeOrr always has with him.

I hope this hasn't given them any ideas about placing one (matchbox car or truck) out there during one of the searches already conducted. These parents have lied so much we may never know what to believe or disbelieve.

I come to little DeOrr's thread first when I log on to WS everyday hoping to read that he has been located. That little guy is in my thoughts and prayers constantly. He (and so many others) deserved so much more.

JMO

 

[CoverMeCagney]

<snipped>

I come to little DeOrr's thread first when I log on to WS everyday hoping to read that he has been located. That little guy is in my thoughts and prayers constantly. He (and so many others) deserved so much more.

JMO

Me too, he's nearly always top of my subs list. It's the most frustrating, exasperating, intriguing (and sometimes stroppy!) thread I am following here. Please just let Spring spring, let DeOrr be found, and hope upon hope that someone gives us a fully truthful explanation about what happened. It can't ever go cold, it just can't...

 

[Tr.]

has anyone ever asked the parents whether DeOrr had a toy car with him when he vanished? His mum made it very clear he was never without one. If he is buried somewhere with a toy car, a metal detector would pick that up, right?

It's mentioned in the last interview.
She said there was always a car in his pocket...good catch.
The zipper on his coat might also be detectable.

 

[12madelyn]

Unless those couple of days included the search.

Oh, right. Good thought.

 

[12madelyn]

I'm really not trying to find an excuse for IR but at this time LE seems to think he's not a suspect and I'm trying to think of a reason why. He said that he saw DeOrr at the campsite but I haven't heard him verify that he was alive.

Maybe because his story/timeline stayed consistent no matter how often he was asked.