ID - DeOrr Kunz, Jr., 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #30

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Lilibet said:
Oh what a tangled web we weave
When first we practice to deceive.

Sir Walter Scott (Marmion, 1808)
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Hypothetically, how do you think JA & VDK would have broached the subject of manufacturing a story about the child who wasn't there with their fellow campers?
 
misty48 said:
Hypothetically, how do you think JA & VDK would have broached the subject of manufacturing a story about the child who wasn't there with their fellow campers?
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I do not remember fellow campers can you cite where that was said by LE or Klein?

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misty48 said:
Hypothetically, how do you think JA & VDK would have broached the subject of manufacturing a story about the child who wasn't there with their fellow campers?
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Sorry Misty, did you mean to RW and IR?

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misty48 said:
In order for them to say "hey, actually, we didn't see baby Deorr at all during the trip" they would have to explain why they were prepared to make up a story which included a child who was never there. It is one thing to cover up something which has been witnessed but quite another to incriminate yourself in a situation about which you have absolutely no knowledge.
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It seems like he is kind of incriminating either himself or the parents by saying "that's what I'm told." Because that's what the public has been told too (the story of great-grandpa watching DeOrr), but apparently that is not really what happened, at least according to Bob. Who on earth knows what Bob told LE - we have no idea what he told them. And Bob has never spoken publicly. It's very mysterious. We really don't know Bob's version at all. We've only been told the parents' version.
 
misty48 said:
Hypothetically, how do you think JA & VDK would have broached the subject of manufacturing a story about the child who wasn't there with their fellow campers?
Click to expand...

My thoughts.... It's possible they used blackmail - particularly if Isaac and/or Bob had been drinking and/or doing drugs. I really think that the parents thought this would all blow over relatively quickly and DeOrr's disappearance would be considered an unexplained mystery (thus the 411 filming very early on). The parents probably convinced (coerced, forced, blackmailed?) the two just to go along with the story and that it would all be over with soon and they'd all go on with their lives. I really don't think that Isaac and Bob had anything to do with DeOrr's disappearance, nor do I think they know where DeOrr is. I think their only role was to say that he was at the campground. And I think it's entirely possible that at some point in the last year and a half that the two have told LE different versions behind closed doors. It may be that Bob has memory problems and honestly was very confused about what happened and when he last saw DeOrr. It's possible he may have issues with short term memory.
 
desert-blue said:
It seems like he is kind of incriminating either himself or the parents by saying "that's what I'm told." Because that's what the public has been told too (the story of great-grandpa watching DeOrr), but apparently that is not really what happened, at least according to Bob. Who on earth knows what Bob told LE - we have no idea what he told them. And Bob has never spoken publicly. It's very mysterious. We really don't know Bob's version at all. We've only been told the parents' version.
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We know IR's public version, as provided in the TV interviews. What we don't have is even a snippet of any interview by KIC with him. If KIC have cold-cased it, then surely at least part of his private testimony concurs with the statements of the others i.e Deorr was present.
 
misty48 said:
We know IR's public version, as provided in the TV interviews. What we don't have is even a snippet of any interview by KIC with him. If KIC have cold-cased it, then surely at least part of his private testimony concurs with the statements of the others i.e Deorr was present.
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I agree that it's a bit strange that KIC has not released any snippets of IR... maybe IR's attorney made that a condition of him being interviewed? Just a thought...

I think KIC cold-cased it because they hit a brick wall as far as finding a body. It seems that is what is needed to bring any resolution to this case. MOO.
 
misty48 said:
Hypothetically, how do you think JA & VDK would have broached the subject of manufacturing a story about the child who wasn't there with their fellow campers?
Click to expand...

My point in quoting Sir Walter Scott was simply to illustrate how convoluted everything has become...the first lie begets more lies until there is a complex web of lies that is hard for anyone to escape from or untangle to get at the truth. That is what has happened in this case IMO.

I don't know that JA and VDK broached the subject of a manufactured story to RW and IR, but if they did, here are a few possibilities....

Gaslighting...convincing them their memories are false and even that they were the ones responsible. "Of course DeOrr was here. You were drunk but you played with him."

Threats (overt or implied)...focused on a vulnerable area of their lives or false their belief they're responsible.

Begging with tears..."It was an accident. You have to help us." OR "We know it was an accident. To protect you let's say he disappeared."

Bribery..."We won't tell what we know about you if you help us."

All of the above or any combination of tactics. Or something else entirely. We only know that there has been deception...
 
I've read every thread but it's been so long, apologies if this has been discussed (I'm sure it has).

I can't stop thinking that GGP did see DeOrr follow his parents, and at that point is when something happened. IR had maybe walked out of sight and didn't see what happened (I don't think he knows). JA and VDK freak out, hide DeOrr, blame GGP and try to make him feel guilty for "not watching him" - maybe to take some of the blame off themselves, or maybe so he won't ask too many questions. They hide DeOrr while they "search". Then the differences in the story start coming out because no one really knows the real story and what they were told is confusing (JA and VDK can't keep their story straight). They may also all feel like they could get in trouble for hiding parts of the truth, but I also don't believe that they thought this would get as big as it has.

So my question is .. How fast was the water where they went fishing? Is there any possibility of DeOrr falling in, them not noticing, drowning, but then being able to recover him and deciding to hide it because of negligence?
 
Onebest said:
Posting here because it a happy ending of a lost 2 yo that wandered and was saved located by SAR and K9 Ava, and because there are many who think dogs are never successful. Mountain Wave SAR is highly successful finding lost people all year all. I also posted their twitter feed.


http://koin.com/2017/02/18/police-portland-mom-woke-up-to-missing-2-year-old-son/

https://mobile.twitter.com/MountainWaveSAR
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Good dog! Extra treats for him. :D It's so nice to have a happy ending. Thanks for posting.

I think properly trained dogs, used in the right situation, are often successful. We've all been on threads where the dog didn't find the person or couldn't follow their scent and the person was found nearby later. But in at least a couple of those situations the dog and handler weren't part of a SAR team and just volunteered. Unfortunately, that effects people's opinions about dogs.

This thread is a QandA about SAR dogs that makes a lot of misunderstandings clear.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...p-Answers-Ask-the-Pros!&p=6031849#post6031849
 
Early reports in Deorr's case said S&R dogs twice followed what was supposedly Deorr's scent up to Stone Reservoir. The cadaver dogs also alerted at the reservoir, although these alerts were quickly attributed to someone disposing of cremains. If the dogs are often correct, why was this intelligence so quickly & easily dismissed?
 
Lilibet said:
My point in quoting Sir Walter Scott was simply to illustrate how convoluted everything has become...the first lie begets more lies until there is a complex web of lies that is hard for anyone to escape from or untangle to get at the truth. That is what has happened in this case IMO.

I don't know that JA and VDK broached the subject of a manufactured story to RW and IR, but if they did, here are a few possibilities....

Gaslighting...convincing them their memories are false and even that they were the ones responsible. "Of course DeOrr was here. You were drunk but you played with him."

Threats (overt or implied)...focused on a vulnerable area of their lives or false their belief they're responsible.

Begging with tears..."It was an accident. You have to help us." OR "We know it was an accident. To protect you let's say he disappeared."

Bribery..."We won't tell what we know about you if you help us."

All of the above or any combination of tactics. Or something else entirely. We only know that there has been deception...
Click to expand...

Therein lies the problem. The deception is too convoluted to be successful when taking into consideration the unreliability of those who were/had been under the influence of drink or drugs & perhaps equally intimidated by the presence of LE. The truth is most likely far more simple, in that Deorr was present (as they all say) but not all of them, if any, know what happened to him.
 
I'm losing faith in our justice system. Two-year-olds don't vanish into thin air.
 
I hope DK and JM/JB/JK/JA/JM lol are living terrible day to day lifes and I hope they never get a good night's sleep until they do the right thing.


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misty48 said:
Early reports in Deorr's case said S&R dogs twice followed what was supposedly Deorr's scent up to Stone Reservoir. The cadaver dogs also alerted at the reservoir, although these alerts were quickly attributed to someone disposing of cremains. If the dogs are often correct, why was this intelligence so quickly & easily dismissed?
Click to expand...

Just because the dogs might have followed to the reservoir, doesn't mean DeOrr got there himself. What info do we have about that, anyway?
 
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