IL IL - Barbara, 15, & Patricia Grimes, 13, Chicago, 27 Dec 1956

[amber1]

Although Gacy was from IL, I believe his victims were male.

 

[December]

I don't know exactly, it just from to texts I read which seems to implie different things:

"Harry Glos, who died in 1994, had announced that one girl was molested; but Richard Wessel Sr., who as an administrative assistant to Sheriff Lohman saw the autopsy slides, told me years later there was evidence that both sisters had been. He speculated that Coroner McCarron had religious reasons for stating otherwise."

"Harry Glos, who died in 1994, had released information that one of the girls had been sexually active but later reports from those who have seen the autopsy slides say there is evidence that both of them may have been."

English is not my first language, but in French it woud mean very different things, so I was wondering what it could implie... And I can't find where exactly, but someone said there was no clear sign of sexual violence (ie they were not virgin, but maybe they were not raped before the murder).

Sorry, I didn't read this very well earlier.

The quotes do not add up to a clear picture at all. It is confusing to me as well.

'molested' means something the person didn't agree to do. usually it is used when there is no penetration, but this is old... it could have meant something different then.

'sexually active' implies some kind of sex the person agrees to have with another person. so, boyfriends.

since the girls could not explain any of this, i would take 'molested' to mean something that caused some harm or hurt (that it is doubtful they would want) OR something that looked like it had been done a long time ago to them (idk how that would show up).

'sexually active' (since they are not able to say if there were boyfriends) could mean someone who did not get their permission, but also did not really cause physical damage. this may be why the doctor felt he could not say... he could see they were not virgins, but he couldn't know why.

if they gave their permission it is one thing, but if i guy did it without permission... how could he besmirch their reputations without knowing for sure? if it got into the papers, then some people would call them *advertiser censored*. (i am not calling them *advertiser censored*.. if they had boyfriends, maybe they loved those boyfriends... i mean one boy for each girl when i say 'boyfriends'.)

but, sometimes a guy will force a girl. or get them drunk and have his way with the girl. it is possible they encountered such a guy. sometimes those kind of guys do not do a lot of physical harm to the girl. it would be hard to tell an attack such as this (that happened months before they died) from consensual sex.

but, also, maybe he wanted the mother to believe her daughters were still virgins. maybe he did not think these details would catch the murderer, but only hurt the mother.

 

[scriptgirl]

Troy Taylor wrote this article on the girls:

http://troytaylorbooks.blogspot.com/2012/12/thetwo-lost-girls-hauntingmystery-of.html

 

[Gunther Toody]

Thanks to the efforts of the Facebook group, many people have come forward who either knew the girls or were with them the night they disappeared.
What I don't think is clear though is the fact that there were no signs of homicide on the bodies. It is entirely possible they died of exposure as the original coroner's report indicated. What is also not clear is the fact that the bodies did not reach the decomposition stage...in other words they had the appearance of someone who might have died within three days or so of being found. Looking at historic weather patterns for the time, shows that there were several days above freezing for the period they were gone, so it is very unlikely that they laid next to the road for three weeks..

There was trauma but nothing severe enough so as to cause death.
There was also a gag order that was sent to news outlets to only print the positive aspects of the case and no negatives.
The pathologists might have been pressured to cover up the sexual activity of the girls.

The Coroner claimed that the girls died the night they disappeared
but that is based on the alleged finding of banana fibers in one of the girls digestive tract. It is more likely that they were held captive until 3-4 days prior to their discovery or they were kept in a large freezer for that period as the bodies were frozen solid when they were discovered.
Also, the three day period prior to their discovery showed temps reaching into the fifties.

The bodies were moved after being placed at the German Church Rd. location. This may have been done by Investigator Harry Gloss as an accommodation to news photographers.

There are many other facts that have come to light recently but I am not at liberty to go in depth due to the fact that many of the people involved are still alive.

 

[Gunther Toody]

Thanks to the efforts of the Facebook group, many people have come forward who either knew the girls or were with them the night they disappeared.
What I don't think is clear though is the fact that there were no signs of homicide on the bodies. It is entirely possible they died of exposure as the original coroner's report indicated. What is also not clear is the fact that the bodies did not reach the decomposition stage...in other words they had the appearance of someone who might have died within three days or so of being found. Looking at historic weather patterns for the time, shows that there were several days above freezing for the period they were gone, so it is very unlikely that they laid next to the road for three weeks..

There was trauma but nothing severe enough so as to cause death.
There was also a gag order that was sent to news outlets to only print the positive aspects of the case and no negatives.
The pathologists might have been pressured to cover up the sexual activity of the girls.

The Coroner claimed that the girls died the night they disappeared
but that is based on the alleged finding of banana fibers in one of the girls digestive tract. It is more likely that they were held captive until 3-4 days prior to their discovery or they were kept in a large freezer for that period as the bodies were frozen solid when they were discovered.
Also, the three day period prior to their discovery showed temps reaching into the fifties.

The bodies were moved after being placed at the German Church Rd. location. This may have been done by Investigator Harry Gloss as an accommodation to news photographers.

There are many other facts that have come to light recently but I am not at liberty to go in depth due to the fact that many of the people involved are still alive.

More on the banana fibers...
The girls brother Jim indicated that he bought the girls banana splits at around 3 PM in the afternoon of Dec. 26th. He was shoveling snow at the church and on the way home, he found $10 on the ground. He used that money to treat the girls to ice cream.

Eyewitness Earl Zastrow stated that he saw the girls at about 11:30 PM the night they disappeared....two blocks from their home clowning around with each other as they made their way toward their home.
Obviously, they never made it and Zastrow was on his own way home at the time.

We can reasonably assume that the girls disappeared at around midnight the night of the twenty sixth...

The temp at Midway Airport at that time was about 23 deg.
Midway is about 7 miles from where they were found and about the same from their Damen Avenue home so the temp should be fairly the same at either location.

The next day...the temp high was 27 deg.
The point is that these temps are not conducive to the body being able to freeze. The coroner stated that the bodies were frozen solid when found and the pathologists had to wait for at least a day for them to thaw enough for autopsy. That being the case....means that there is no way banana fibers would still be in the digestive system 3 weeks later when the bodies were found rendering it highly unlikely that the girls were murdered the same night they disappeared.


To do an assessment of the temps at Midway Airport for each day the girls were gone, go here.
http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KMDW/1956/12/28/DailyHistory.html

This will also show the precipitation on a day by day basis.

 

[VikingBookLady]

Gunther Toody suggested: As for the dumping ground, Willow Springs at that time was a very corrupt municipality loaded with mob activity. Consequently, I might look into the father's activities and whether he ran afoul of the mob in some way.

My observations: Joseph Grimes, Sr was a truck driver--could have had some mob involvement? Coroner McCarron owned a trucking company--was he mobbed up?

Has anyone read Raymond Johnson's Chicago History: The Stranger Side

Johnson suggests Charles Melquist killed the Grimes sisters and Bonnie Scott.

Johnson also interviewed a school friend of Barbara-- she says the three girls accepted a man's offer of a ride home from the theater and she got nervous and jumped out when the driver slowed down. The sisters remained in the car. Credible?

VikingBookLady

 

[Darcyline]

I am confused about how these two girls died. I have googled quite a bit over how long it takes to die from exposure and it varies greatly, but most of the sources seem to indicate it would take a semi-long time (unless in water, which I don't think they were in water?). Longer than the timeline permits if they died within four hours. Plus, what exactly did someone do to them? Tie them up outside naked for the night? Would extreme cold have stopped digestion and maybe that was why they found the food from earlier even though they technically died later? If it was just banana fiber that made them say that maybe they had more banana elsewhere and were alive after that night? Or could they tell it was that specific banana source?
I am just trying to imagine what type of homicide leads to death by exposure specifically in this situation where it seems like they died and then were dumped rather than just being ditched in the woods somewhere and then dying. Does that make sense? Like, they died a fairly slow death from exposure somewhere and THEN were picked up, placed in a vehicle, and driven elsewhere to be dumped?Am I overthinking this? This is just a bizarre case. I can usually sketch together a general timeline of what could have happened from the general facts, but in this one I can see them getting snatched or going with the wrong person, but immediately after that I have no idea what happened. I am assuming they were assaulted in one way or another, but the exposure death and inconsistencies of the timeline of death throw me off.

 

[Gunther Toody]

Gunther Toody suggested: As for the dumping ground, Willow Springs at that time was a very corrupt municipality loaded with mob activity. Consequently, I might look into the father's activities and whether he ran afoul of the mob in some way.

My observations: Joseph Grimes, Sr was a truck driver--could have had some mob involvement? Coroner McCarron owned a trucking company--was he mobbed up?

Has anyone read Raymond Johnson's Chicago History: The Stranger Side

Johnson suggests Charles Melquist killed the Grimes sisters and Bonnie Scott.

Johnson also interviewed a school friend of Barbara-- she says the three girls accepted a man's offer of a ride home from the theater and she got nervous and jumped out when the driver slowed down. The sisters remained in the car. Credible?

VikingBookLady

As far as the evidence reveals, father Joseph Grimes was just a truck driver working for a company at 34th and Washtenaw in the city.
Ray and I have worked extensively together on the case and while he believes Melquist was involved, I tend to disagree. A neighbor girl claims she saw Charles Melquist in the Grimes home one afternoon shortly before the girls disappeared. In addition, he was alleged to have been found with a list of girls names from the same neighborhood as the Grimes girls. When asked about the list, none of the girls on it had any idea how he acquired their names. That, coupled with similarities to the Bonnie Leigh Scott murder case, for which Melquist was convicted and served 11 years make Melquist a possible suspect.

I have also talked to the schoolmate. Her story sounds credible as she would have no reason to lie. The girls allegedly accepted a ride a few blocks from the theater and all three got into the back seat. None knew the driver, who this girl claimed was older and had an unusual voice. For whatever reason, the driver entered the alley at Archer and Pershing...which coincidentally was behind the home of the third girl and she jumped out because a neighbor was in the alley emptying his garbage and she feared he would tell her father.

The neighbor did tell police and they attempted to interview her the next day, but she claimed ignorance of the whole thing and denied it was her in the car.

Here is a link to a news story about Charles Melquist and his admission of killing Bonnie Leigh Scott, less than a year after the Grimes murders.
He was questioned in the Grimes case as well as the Peterson/Scheussler murders.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...gIqAAAAIBAJ&sjid=iCYEAAAAIBAJ&pg=7366,4444923

 

[Gunther Toody]

Darcyline, you have brought up many questions...
If you wish break them down to a few at a time and perhaps I can help you.
I have studied the case extensively, particularly the forensic aspects of it.

For starters, I will answer some of the banana question.
The banana came from a banana split that her brother Jimmy bought her at about 3:00 PM that afternoon.
Jimmy was shoveling snow at St. Maurice church which was around the corner from their home and on his way back, found $10 on the ground.
He treated his two sisters to ice cream (or banana split) with it.

That was several hours before they disappeared (which my estimate puts at no earlier than 11:45 that night.
They were also seen in the popcorn line at the theater at 9:30 by one of their schoolmates, but it isn't clear if they at popcorn since none was found in their stomachs.

What the pathologist actually found was fibers further along the digestive tract, which he claimed were banana.

 

[December]

maybe they were kept in an industrial freezer for a while?

 

[Gunther Toody]

maybe they were kept in an industrial freezer for a while?

That is one of my theories as well. The bodies were clean and the bottoms of their feet bore no markings as if from walking barefoot. At this point, I do not believe they were physically murdered. The pathologists could find no indication of any mechanisms of death such as strangulation marks, poisons, stab wounds...etc. I am leaning towards their being placed in an environment that caused their death from freezing and they were kept there for the three weeks they were gone.

There is one place that fits that scenario nicely. Santa Fe Speedway. Santa Fe was a popular stock car track within a mile from where the bodies were found. While rural, it was still a hangout for city dwellers. A yellow sweater was found in the basement of a concession stand at Santa Fe..(both girls wore yellow sweaters when they disappeared). However, Mrs. Grimes claimed it did not belong to her girls. Is it possible Mrs. Grimes was mistaken in her identification? Maybe. Santa Fe would have surely had large freezers and it was the off-season.

Police holding up the sweater found at the speedway.
http://www.mmgarchives.com/Patricia...hRank=-product_site_launch_date&searchSize=12
Here is a link to an image of the police exiting the concession stand where the sweater was found.
http://images.mmgarchives.com/CT/AI/...R-274-CT_F.JPG

Another connection to Santa Fe is the man who found the bodies..Leonard Prescott.
I had been informed that Prescott was related to the owners of the speedway and actually worked there as a maintenance man, so he would have had easy access.

 

[STANDREID]

Do we know what size that sweater is? It looks very small to me like maybe something an 8 y/o would wear.

 

[December]

Do we know what size that sweater is? It looks very small to me like maybe something an 8 y/o would wear.

It's big enough for a teen or smallish woman to wear, I think.

 

[Gunther Toody]

From memory...
Barbara who was 15, was about 5'1" and Patricia, younger by two years was taller at 5'3".
Both were thin, so conceivably the sweater could have fit either one.

 

[Gunther Toody]

Here is a chart of the weather patterns for the entire period the girls were missing.
The Temperatures were recorded at the Midway Airport recording station, which is located about 7 miles from where the bodies were found.
Note the temps for the period leading up to the day they were discovered. It is significant because the bodies were literally frozen solid when found and the coroner had to wait for the bodies to thaw for at least 1 day so an autopsy could be performed. The temperatures fluctuated throughout the period so much so that many days rose above freezing. Any thawing of a corpse will activate decomposition.

The condition the girls bodies were in had no decomposition and were merely discolored a little....as if they might have died within 2-3 days prior to being discovered.

Forgive my poor chart making skills...I am not really adept at it.

 

[STANDREID]

It's big enough for a teen or smallish woman to wear, I think.

Surely the sweater's size is recorded somewhere. I see a label inside the collar even though that wouldn't be the only way to determine its size. The Grimes Sisters clothing sizes must also be on record somewhere also, that is, if the police did a proper job.

 

[Gunther Toody]

Surely the sweater's size is recorded somewhere. I see a label inside the collar even though that wouldn't be the only way to determine its size. The Grimes Sisters clothing sizes must also be on record somewhere also, that is, if the police did a proper job.

Evidence still exists on the case...the Cook County Sheriff Dept. has two filing cabinets full of information, interviews, and files related to it.
There is also physical evidence in their possession.

Here is some background on the situation as it existed.
At the time of the crime, three separate agencies were conducting their own investigation of the crime.
Due to political, jurisdictional or personal differences, they were not initially cooperating with one another. The Cook County Sheriff Dept., Chicago Police and the State's Attorney's office were finally forced to share information. There were also accusations that the then Mayor Daley administrations was "dragging their feet" with helping the Republican Sheriff Lohman because he was planning to run for governor in the next election.

According to one of my sources, there was an order given to media outlets that they were forbidden to publish any negative aspects of the case or attempt to portray the family in any negative way.

All this coupled with inept police work and a possible cover-up of the autopsy results make this case very difficult to solve.

 

[Natasha (Tash) Simp]

Going by the photo of their corpses, the fifteen year old was very voluptuous for her age in the *advertiser censored* aspect and that would have attracted a lot of male attention - including from the man or men who killed her and her younger sister.

 

[Natasha (Tash) Simp]

I wonder if the killer stripped them naked before or after he killed them? stripping a teenage girl or adult woman naked (or to their bra and panties) would be a certain way of making them feel humiliated, terrified and vulnerable, so it's certainly possible he stripped them while they were still alive.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Thanks to the efforts of the Facebook group, many people have come forward who either knew the girls or were with them the night they disappeared.
What I don't think is clear though is the fact that there were no signs of homicide on the bodies. It is entirely possible they died of exposure as the original coroner's report indicated. What is also not clear is the fact that the bodies did not reach the decomposition stage...in other words they had the appearance of someone who might have died within three days or so of being found. Looking at historic weather patterns for the time, shows that there were several days above freezing for the period they were gone, so it is very unlikely that they laid next to the road for three weeks..

There was trauma but nothing severe enough so as to cause death.
There was also a gag order that was sent to news outlets to only print the positive aspects of the case and no negatives.
The pathologists might have been pressured to cover up the sexual activity of the girls.

The Coroner claimed that the girls died the night they disappeared
but that is based on the alleged finding of banana fibers in one of the girls digestive tract. It is more likely that they were held captive until 3-4 days prior to their discovery or they were kept in a large freezer for that period as the bodies were frozen solid when they were discovered.
Also, the three day period prior to their discovery showed temps reaching into the fifties.

The bodies were moved after being placed at the German Church Rd. location. This may have been done by Investigator Harry Gloss as an accommodation to news photographers.

There are many other facts that have come to light recently but I am not at liberty to go in depth due to the fact that many of the people involved are still alive.

I've only just started reading about this case, definitely intriguing. As I'm reading through posts, I also wondered if they were kept in a freezer and were found quite soon after being dumped. Could they have been held captive in a meat locker (freezer) like at a butchers or abattoirs?