IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #163

[girlhasnoname]

I'm sure you've seen many approved sources regarding the searchers who discovered the crime scene.

There are no official news sources for whether RL had his PCA and SW. Considering he had an atty for his DD charge, I couldn't imagine that he didn't have access to all of his documents.

I caught the sealing of the autopsy and copied it before they removed it from record. Since I was new to court cases, I didn't copy the case number and when I went back to get it, it was gone. Here's what I copied; it's a good as I can do until they unseal it:
******
On March 28, 2017, State of Indiana, by Prosecuting Attorney Robert T. Ives, filed a Petition to seal the autopsy reports concerning Abigail Williams and Liberty German.

The Court, being duly advised, FINDS as follows:
1) On February 13, 2017 Abigail Williams and Liberty German were killed just outside of Delphi in Carroll County, Indiana.
2) An investigation into these killings is ongoing.
3) No charges have been filed with connection to the killings.
4) The details related to the manner and mechanism of the deaths of Ms. Williams and Ms. German, if they remain confidential, make it easier for investigators to recognize a false confession as it is improbable for an innocent person to accurately describe the details of the deaths without personal knowledge.
5) Investigators are able to maintain a tactical advantage when speaking with a suspect if the manner and mechanism of the deaths of Ms. Williams and Ms. German are not made public.

The Court, being duly advised, ORDERS as follows: State of Indiana has demonstrated by a preponderance of the evidence that public access or dissemination of the information contained in Ind. Code 36-2-14-18(a) would create significant risks of harm to the criminal investigation of the deaths of Ms. Williams and Ms. German.

State of Indiana's Petition to Seal Autopsy Reports, filed March 28, 2017, is GRANTED. The Court ORDERS the Carroll County Coroner to PROHIBIT public inspection and copying the following information related to Ms. Abigail Williams or Ms. Liberty German:
1) The name, age, address, sex, and race of the deceased.
2) The address where the dead body was found, or if there is no address the location where the dead body was found and, if different, the address where the death occurred, or if there is no address the location where the death occurred.
3) The name of the agency to which the death was reported and the name of the person reporting the death.
4) The name of any public official or governmental employee present at the scene of the death and the name of the person certifying or pronouncing the death.
5) Information regarding an autopsy (requested or performed) limited to the date, the person who performed the autopsy, where the autopsy was performed, and a conclusion as to: a. the probable cause of death; b. the probable manner of death; and c. the probable mechanism of death.
6) The location to which the body was removed, the person determining the location to which the body was removed, and the authority under which the decision to remove the body was made.
7) The records required to be filed by a coroner under section 6 [IC 36-2-14-6] of this chapter and the verdict and the written report required under section 10 [IC 36-2-14-10] of this chapter. (Collectively the confidential autopsy information ) The confidential autopsy information shall remain confidential until further order of this Court. The Court shall enter further order if the Prosecuting Attorney notifies the Court that the investigation has concluded.
The Court shall enter further order if any person demonstrates that access to the confidential autopsy information would not create a significant risk to the criminal investigation of the deaths, AND the public interest will be served by allowing access to the confidential autopsy information, per form. (Copy to State, Coroner 3/28/2017,HNC)

Thank you for this response.

 

[Dre]

Fwiw:

Cognitive Decline as a Result of Incarceration and the Effects of a CBT/MT Intervention: A Cluster-Randomized Controlled Trial

This study primarily tests whether incarceration negatively affects cognitive functioning; namely emotion regulation, cognitive control, and emotion recognition. As a secondary interest, we test protective effects of a Cognitive Behavioral Therapy/Mindfulness ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

—-


If he’s guilty, I think it’s possible he’s had a cognitive/emotional decline (or whatever you want to call it) because he’s been caught, knowing he faces the rest of his life incarcerated, losing everything, forced to face his crimes and his own madness, etc. Maybe his already poor mental state has now been exacerbated.

People have breakdowns over much less, comparatively speaking.

Not to mention you’d have to be off your rocker to do something like this to begin with, and there are of course different types of people, killers, psychiatric predispositions, etc.

RE: having amenities such as “movies” on his iPad (which is ridiculous btw, but I’m not surprised because back in the day I drove by a prison and saw lines of TVs through the windows of the individual cells), he’s still living in confinement and is bottom of the prison totem pole/hierarchy as an alleged child murderer, so I don’t think he’s necessary thrilled just because he gets things like movies in prison.

Of course he could be fudging, but imo he looks so bad I tend to think it’s real, but who really knows, right?

Even if he has suffered a decline post-incarceration, that may not affect the charges at hand, unless of course this is used to offset the validity of the confessions, which could be a big deal, of course, but even then, there has to be more than a confession to convict someone, unless the confession(s) contain details only the killer would know.

Also, IF he is not guilty, well then that could send anyone completely over the edge.

There is also maaaaybe the possibility he has some sort of undiagnosed physical medical condition as well, which coincidentally coincides with all of this, or is perhaps exacerbated by the mental/physical effects of his incarceration.

Just saying I think anything is possible at this point, as far as his “decline” goes. Sometimes I see crime shows and then go to look them up, only to see the inmate has actually died from a medical condition.

Interesting discussion, whatever the case.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. he had been doing his best in keeping his shyt together for years and now that he’s been caught and in prison isolation he’s unraveling fast. I don’t think he’s faking at all, but rather his defense is spinning tales because… it’s their job to knit-pick anything and everything and see what they can get from it.

I am hopeful they get him some consistent counseling in order to keep him competent to stand trial, one and only priority imo!

 

[MistyWaters]

Could be possible with this Defendant. I don't buy his poor, feeble, addle minded display at all. I think RA is cunning and conniving.

ALL MOO

I agree, I doubt he’s ever been in a position of significance in his miserable existence and now he may be learning he can manipulate things to his advantage. IMO he’s receiving too much pre-trial media attention. I really just want to know if he’s found guilty or not.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Thank you for this response.

You're welcome.

In addition, the searcher who claimed they saw the bodies while looking at the deer, almost certainly had to see at least a part of the staging. IMO. Also, I would be amazed if RL didn't see it, too. He had livestock, so he very likely had binoculars to check on them without running outside.
How about any of the neighbors who saw the flurry of cars arriving at the scene. Did they look out their windows? Didn't that one (Robinson?) say the scene was about a football field away from their house?

 

[Barbieshell]

I believe the Judge will rule the ballistics evidence in and allow the 'experts' to argue the validity to the jury.

Maybe they recovered RA's DNA on the bullet?

The extracting pin and the ejector inside a firearm which are responsible for ejecting the spent shell casing from the gun’s chamber also create distinct impressions on the shell casing which are unique to a particular firearm. Same logic would apply to ejecting an unspent round.

It's a science that is still widely used in criminal cases today even if some discount it's credibility.

ALL MOO

Imagine if it all came about from someone uploading a DNA sample to something like ancestry and me........which could certainly narrow down the pool and bring heat to your door if you've done something wrong (and your unknown DNA has already been entered into codis etc).

 

[Laughing]

Imagine if it all came about from someone uploading a DNA sample to something like ancestry and me.....which could certainly narrow down the pool and bring heat to your door if you've done something wrong (and your unknown DNA has already been entered into codis etc).

IDK about Indiana -- but LE's DNA database contains different parts of the sequence than the commercial providers AND LE generally needs a court order to compare a sample to a commercial database.

iirc Florida will NOT allow this. Again, idk about Indiana and if this has happened, I missed it & await clarification.

This info was included in the Vance Rodriguez threads:

Identified! - FL - Big Cypress Natl Preserve, Male Hiker, Denim & “Mostly Harmless” July 2018 - Vance Rodriguez #3

COLLIER COUNTY, Fla. -- Collier County investigators are looking for help identifying a man who was found dead in a remote campground in Big Cypress National Preserve. According to the Collier County Sheriff's Office, the unidentified man was found on July 23rd in Noble's Camp, approximately 5...

www.websleuths.com

jmho ymmv lrr

 

[dm799]

JMO (I do not know if RA is guilty but I do strongly believe in due process):

The 'mastermind' criminal who pulled off a brazen, technically complex crime, and got away with it for years, is not going to be the same person who doesn't realise that "confessing" over the phone while a trial is pending, is a bad move.

You can't have it both ways. Mastermind, or not.

There's lots of academic material about how conditions, and the individual's own psychological make-up can lead to false confessions. The conditions I believe RA is being held in may well have led to this "running the mouth".

False Confessions: Causes, Consequences, and Implications

In the past two decades, hundreds of convicted prisoners have been exonerated by DNA and non-DNA evidence, revealing that police-induced false confessions are a leading cause of wrongful conviction of the innocent. In this article, empirical research on the causes and correlates of false...

jaapl.org

I've seen nothing to suggest RA is any kind of mastermind. In fact the little we have learned about him would tend to suggest the opposite. I'm referring to things like speaking to LE without any representation and making a statement to an official which may have handed LE some of the strongest evidence they have against him. The one(s) where he placed himself at the crime scene wearing clothing consistent with the killer.

You don't have to be a mastermind to get away with a crime for years if those responsible for investigating the crime are incompetent.

Just my opinion.

 

[FrostedGlass]

It is a lot of small details in the video that probably do not matter much now.

1. Early on in the case when the still picture and video came out, the position of the gun in the bridge guy's jacket seemed to be for someone who was left-handed. In a video of Richard Allen playing pool he looked to be right-handed.

2. The height looked different than that of Richard Allen. But because of distance from where Liberty German took the phone video, it is hard to be sure about the height. The person in the video looked to be at least 5'9" tall although Richard Allen is described as 5'4" tall.

3. The facial features look more like someone who has deep facial tissue cheekline that falls down their face with a bigger nose. I thought maybe this person might have something wrong with their arms and legs as their physical stature when walking looks sort of slouched like they do not walk upright(and decreasing their height in the video).

4. The head covering looked like a floppy ear Swiss army type hat, not a ballcap. Maybe Richard Allen has a floppy ear Swiss army type hat? Out on the bridge, if it was a sunny day I thought Richard Allen might wear his sunglasses if he had them. The jacket in the video seemed to be of a thinner material, like a windbreaker instead of a Carhartt jacket. You can see what looks like the outline of a gun.

5. The last is timing of the bridge guy on the video. The picture of Abigail Williams was taken at 2:07pm. In the picture there does not look to be anyone behind her on the bridge and we know the picture taken before that by Liberty German of the entire bridge before Abigail Williams and Liberty German decided to cross shows no one on the bridge. The bridge guy video was taken at 2:13pm.

If Richard Allen had first crossed paths with Abby and Libby before Abby and Libby ever got to the beginning of the Monon High Bridge crossing, then why not abduct them and force them into the woods on that side of the bridge without having to cross the creek?

The one thing I definitely think is this was NOT a pre-planned crime meaning he was not completely certain of what he was going to do that day(if it is Richard Allen in the video which now most likely it is). I think even if Richard Allen went there with the intention of harming some victim that day, he must have sat around deciding what to do for at least 6 minutes. And even when he did decide what to do it does not take 6 minutes to cross the Monon High Bridge the way that person was walking when Liberty German videotaped them.

I suppose this makes sense now with the information about incriminating statements and confession by Richard Allen revealed in court yesterday. Richard Allen, with no criminal record, was deciding whether he should go through with it. He must have still been lurking around them within eyesight before Liberty German thought something was wrong when he decided what to do and began walking towards them at the end of the bridge.

At least as of yesterday, Richard Allen has made incriminating statements implicating himself in the murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German so nothing really matters now, but these are the differences between what I saw in the video and Richard Allen.

The irony is that without the video I would think nothing about any of this and have no questions.

All the years of contemplating these things is hard to let go of. Special points of interest:
#1 point about the gun. Carrying on the right in that position never did and still doesn't make any sense to me unless it's a lefty carrying in a shoulder holster. If I ever see a picture of someone carrying like that, it will change my mind.
#4 point about the jacket. IIRC, he said he was wearing either a blue or black Carhart jacket with a hood. There is something special about BG's jacket, that LE will know if it's "the one."
I wonder if LE found some torn fibers that would match a damaged area in his jacket.
#5

If Richard Allen had first crossed paths with Abby and Libby before Abby and Libby ever got to the beginning of the Monon High Bridge crossing, then why not abduct them and force them into the woods on that side of the bridge without having to cross the creek?

At this point, I'd give this a ton of weight except for the news that they found L's shoe on the bridge side of the creek. Could that be a bit of misinformation released on purpose? Something that would convince us that they had to have crossed the bridge.

You talk about the confessions. I cannot figure out who the 5 or 6 people are that they say RA confessed to. I doubt that it's his family members. He doesn't seem to have any close friends; if he did, I'm sure Murder Sheet would have ferreted them out by now. So now I'm wondering if he has online friends who he feels comfortable enough with to share damaging secrets.

 

[Boxer]

You're welcome.

In addition, the searcher who claimed they saw the bodies while looking at the deer, almost certainly had to see at least a part of the staging. IMO. Also, I would be amazed if RL didn't see it, too. He had livestock, so he very likely had binoculars to check on them without running outside.
How about any of the neighbors who saw the flurry of cars arriving at the scene. Did they look out their windows? Didn't that one (Robinson?) say the scene was about a football field away from their house?

The crime scene is not easy to see. The area betweeen the cemetary and creek was a old gravel quarry creating two latge berms.

 

[MistyWaters]

I've seen nothing to suggest RA is any kind of mastermind. In fact the little we have learned about him would tend to suggest the opposite. I'm referring to things like speaking to LE without any representation and making a statement to an official which may have handed LE some of the strongest evidence they have against him. The one(s) where he placed himself at the crime scene wearing clothing consistent with the killer.

You don't have to be a mastermind to get away with a crime for years if those responsible for investigating the crime are incompetent.

Just my opinion.

All these things have me believing there’ll be a future plea deal instead of a trial.

 

[somequestions]

All the years of contemplating these things is hard to let go of. Special points of interest:
#1 point about the gun. Carrying on the right in that position never did and still doesn't make any sense to me unless it's a lefty carrying in a shoulder holster. If I ever see a picture of someone carrying like that, it will change my mind.
#4 point about the jacket. IIRC, he said he was wearing either a blue or black Carhart jacket with a hood. There is something special about BG's jacket, that LE will know if it's "the one."
I wonder if LE found some torn fibers that would match a damaged area in his jacket.
#5

At this point, I'd give this a ton of weight except for the news that they found L's shoe on the bridge side of the creek. Could that be a bit of misinformation released on purpose? Something that would convince us that they had to have crossed the bridge.

You talk about the confessions. I cannot figure out who the 5 or 6 people are that they say RA confessed to. I doubt that it's his family members. He doesn't seem to have any close friends; if he did, I'm sure Murder Sheet would have ferreted them out by now. So now I'm wondering if he has online friends who he feels comfortable enough with to share damaging secrets.

The word "incriminating" was used to describe the confession statements given by Richard Allen. But no one know what that means until what Richard Allen said is revealed at the trial.

The blue jacket is very important. With it being described as a bloody crime scene, maybe there was DNA evidence found of the jacket he still has. Or maybe he bought a new blue Carharrt jacket?

One thing I thought was sort of strange about the PCA was that it said a vehicle matching Richard Allen's was captured on video arriving in the area around the time Richard Allen said he arrived. But I could not find where it said in the PCA that it was captured leaving on video. Maybe Richard Allen took a different way home after the crime or went to a dumpster to dispose of evidence like the blue jacket after the crime?

I am sure that in his police interview LE asked him where he went after the crime. He must have went in the opposite direction for some reason. His car may have a lot of evidence in it. If he was muddy and bloody there might be transfer evidence on his driver's seat that proves his guilt.

It will be interesting to see what other evidence LE had against Richard Allen when they made the arrest. With a confession though it might not matter.

 

[FrostedGlass]

The crime scene is not easy to see. The area betweeen the cemetary and creek was a old gravel quarry creating two latge berms.

How did the guy looking at the deer see the bodies and not the crime scene? Didn't LE say they were killed where they were found?

 

[M. Kay]

All these things have me believing there’ll be a future plea deal instead of a trial.

I hope so. As much as I would like to know details that emerge in court, it is more painful to think of families, friends, and community all living with more than they already have known.

 

[lisette]

I think his decline is real, whether self induced or not.. he is broken physically and probably mentally too if he's chucking his ipad around while in a tantrum.
His dress code for court is odd and his lawyers would have an input here, they could have advised him to dress appropriately and show respect for the courts.
Maybe he chose to go full feral because he is deranged or thinks he is playing an elaborate game of being deranged, though he really has become unhinged...

He went free for such a long long time that he must have believed the danger had passed for him..

It's hard to hazard a guess at his behaviour personally and professionally following the murders.
I do wonder whether anything at all changed?
he was promoted at work, from shop floor to pharmacy tech.
He would have had ongoing relationships with the public.

I assume nothing weird happened.
His demeanour didn't change at all.

His wife still calls him 'her person'.
To me that indicates loyalty if not love.

What exactly did he read in the legal papers that drove him nuts?
What was the one thing?
This is the bit that confounds me.

What is this about him throwing a tablet? Can you direct me to the article about that? I missed it …and was it when he was reading some legal papers on the tablet?

 

[Boxer]

How did the guy looking at the deer see the bodies and not the crime scene? Didn't LE say they were killed where they were found?

IIRC the searcher was across the creek and so his view was from a similar elevation.

The trees in the creek area though bare at the time have dense crowns, which rise to the same height as the bridge, this is why one can see the bridge from the CS, but one cannot see the CS from the bridge.

Coincidentally Platform 1 offers the best vantage to try and see the CS from anywhere on the trail or bridge.
The Platform 1 vantage is through the 60ft to 80ft bare trees and the platform is just barely angled to where there is a possibel line of sight to the the bend in the creek.

MOO it the only place along the trail and bridge where, IF you could see through the tree crowns you could see the level area they were found in.

The CS has oddness per Ives, but could that oddness be seen from a distance?

 

[photographer4]

We also don't know whether police had contact with the persons he "confessed" to before he made the confessions (to coach them on what to ask, or what to say that might help start that conversation, or how to keep that going). Its possible that there are people on the outside who know RA in some way who want to also help police so it is possible that these were not quite spontaneous statements, but more answering questions asked by someone.

 

[TL4S]

IIRC the searcher was across the creek and so his view was from a similar elevation.

The trees in the creek area though bare at the time have dense crowns, which rise to the same height as the bridge, this is why one can see the bridge from the CS, but one cannot see the CS from the bridge.

Coincidentally Platform 1 offers the best vantage to try and see the CS from anywhere on the trail or bridge.
The Platform 1 vantage is through the 60ft to 80ft bare trees and the platform is just barely angled to where there is a possibel line of sight to the the bend in the creek.

MOO it the only place along the trail and bridge where, IF you could see through the tree crowns you could see the level area they were found in.

The CS has oddness per Ives, but could that oddness be seen from a distance?

See, this is where I get stuck. So this murder-fantisizing guy just went on one of his routine hunting hikes, carrying his gun and knife, his face covered, and stood out on the bridge platform watching fish, just hoping he'd come across a victim, even though he's lived in the area over 40 years and never before found the right time to murder someone, but that day he found two teenagers and decided it was the right time, even though he had already been seen by at least three witnesses earlier on the trail and was far away from his vehicle?

 

[margarita25]

I’m thinking this is all possibly heading towards RA’s defense attorneys claiming client is mentally unfit to stand trial (whether ruse or not).

 

[JerseyGirl]

New thread:

IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #164

Welcome back to the Delphi Murders discussion thread. On the afternoon of Feb. 13th, 2017, best friends Abigail Williams and Liberty German were dropped off at a bridge in the town of Delphi. On Feb 14th their bodies were discovered around noon about 50 feet from the north bank of Deer Creek...

www.websleuths.com