IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #168

[arielilane]

#Delphi hearing on 10/19/23 in Allen County "likely" to be televised. Multiple requests already received. Allen is one of the Indiana counties that routinely allows cameras.

#Delphi: According to Allen Superior Court Executive John McGauley, 10/31 hearing not "officially" set yet, he expects 10/19 hearing to clear up what 10/31 is for, and it could include Franks hearing.

#Delphi Judge Gull sets hearing for Allen on 10/19/23 - not in Delphi, this is for Allen Superior Court. Second hearing scheduled for 10/31/23.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1712490618893529202

 

[MistyWaters]

About sticks being sticks.
Nope, they were not just sticks.
They were stcks touched by a murderer.

Why are the citizens of Indiana paying these people's cushy salaries and retirements?

I would like to learn how sticks could be tested for DNA.

If there was no obvious indications of DNA such as blood, urine or semen that could be swabbed, what’s to swab? So we’re thinking the sticks should be examined for touch DNA, that would be the focus? But how would branches or leaves be tested for touch DNA, remembering they are biological in nature having their own DNA.

Anyone know, just in general, how such a procedure would take place? I’m curious. Or are we expecting something impossible to have occurred just because the defence said it didn’t, even though it could not have.

This is from Iowa but I’d expect the procedure to be the same everywhere.

https://dps.iowa.gov/sites/default/files/criminal-investigation/criminalistics-laboratory/laboratory-sections/toxicology-section/guidelines-for-dna-sample-collection.pdf

Collection:
“Remember to wear personal protective equipment such as latex gloves when collecting DNA samples to prevent contamination by the collector. The preferred method of collection is simply to collect the entire item (ex. bloodstained knife). Larger items too cumbersome or impossible to submit entirely may be swabbed (ex. bloodstained door) or cut-out (ex. semen stained car seat). Collect a large sample (when possible) with a clean sharp instrument. “

Swabbing for touch DNA - (I’m having a hard time imagining this process being possible for leaves, branches and sticks.)

How to Swab for Touch DNA Evidence

Learn the steps to effectively swab for Touch DNA evidence while avoiding crime scene contamination.

blog.puritanmedproducts.com

 

[Bergmann]

I would like to learn how sticks could be tested for DNA.

If there was no obvious indications of DNA such as blood, urine or semen that could be swabbed, what’s to swab? So we’re thinking the sticks should be examined for touch DNA, that would be the focus? But how would branches or leaves be tested for touch DNA, remembering they are biological in nature having their own DNA.

Anyone know, just in general, how such a procedure would take place? I’m curious. Or are we expecting something impossible to have occurred just because the defence said it didn’t, even though it could not have.

This is from Iowa but I’d expect the procedure to be the same everywhere.

https://dps.iowa.gov/sites/default/files/criminal-investigation/criminalistics-laboratory/laboratory-sections/toxicology-section/guidelines-for-dna-sample-collection.pdf

Collection:
“Remember to wear personal protective equipment such as latex gloves when collecting DNA samples to prevent contamination by the collector. The preferred method of collection is simply to collect the entire item (ex. bloodstained knife). Larger items too cumbersome or impossible to submit entirely may be swabbed (ex. bloodstained door) or cut-out (ex. semen stained car seat). Collect a large sample (when possible) with a clean sharp instrument. “

Swabbing for touch DNA - (I’m having a hard time imagining this process being possible for leaves, branches and sticks.)

How to Swab for Touch DNA Evidence

Learn the steps to effectively swab for Touch DNA evidence while avoiding crime scene contamination.

blog.puritanmedproducts.com

I know one thing. If you leave the sticks out in the elements for two weeks before deciding it might be a good idea to collect them, it’s very unlikely you will recover any useable DNA which may or may not have been there in the first place.

I’d have preferred the option to understand what might have been recoverable but it was not to be…

 

[MistyWaters]

I know one thing. If you leave the sticks out in the elements for two weeks before deciding it might be a good idea to collect them, it’s very unlikely you will recover any useable DNA which may or may not have been there in the first place.

I’d have preferred the option to understand what might have been recoverable but it was not to be…

I’d expect there’s difficulty in collecting DNA from any outdoor crime scene, as opposed to interior crime scenes including door knobs, handles, furniture and hard floors.

But if there was no DNA found on the bodies or clothing of the girls, possibly suggesting gloves were worn, why would it be expected DNA found on a bunch of sticks (if possible to recover) would identify the killer? IMO too much meaningless focus on sticks, as sticks were not the murder weason.

 

[pageantmom]

Besides the bullet that allegedly came from RA’s gun and happened to be at the crime scene, is there ANY other evidence to go on that RA did it??

 

[thisisme23]

Has anyone got a summary of Murder Sheets latest pls as I don’t listen

 

[MistyWaters]

Besides the bullet that allegedly came from RA’s gun and happened to be at the crime scene, is there ANY other evidence to go on that RA did it??

There’s a gag order in place for now, so good chance we won’t know of the state’s evidence until his trial occurs.

 

[Boxer]

MOO Sticks are picked up in generally the same way by most humans. That area would be a place to look for human epithelial cells.
I would expect anything they had to remove from on top of a body to be tested.

 

[TL4S]

Has anyone got a summary of Murder Sheets latest pls as I don’t listen

@thisisme23 The basics that I got from it is that someone (unnamed) who had access to the D's discovery file, sent the CS photos to at least one person (maybe more). One person who received them sent them on to MS, along with screen shots of texts between the two, and asked MS to go to LE with the leaked information. They did. They spoke with JH from ISP, who took it very seriously. Long story short, the unnamed person who originally leaked the photos apparently committed suicide last week, although MS would not even speculate on the reasoning behind the suicide. Most likely, the hearing next week will be addressing these leaks, and it's possible the judge will reprimand the D however she sees fit, anything from a slap on the hand, to total dismissal of the D team from the case.

MS asked anyone with access to the CS photos to do the right thing by not passing them along online and instead contact LE.

Please, anyone correct me if I got things wrong. This is pretty devastating.

 

[MistyWaters]

@thisisme23 The basics that I got from it is that someone (unnamed) who had access to the D's discovery file, sent the CS photos to at least one person (maybe more). One person who received them sent them on to MS, along with screen shots of texts between the two, and asked MS to go to LE with the leaked information. They did. They spoke with JH from ISP, who took it very seriously. Long story short, the unnamed person who originally leaked the photos apparently committed suicide last week, although MS would not even speculate on the reasoning behind the suicide. Most likely, the hearing next week will be addressing these leaks, and it's possible the judge will reprimand the D however she sees fit, anything from a slap on the hand, to total dismissal of the D team from the case.

MS asked anyone with access to the CS photos to do the right thing by not passing them along online and instead contact LE.

Please, anyone correct me if I got things wrong. This is pretty devastating.

Worthwhile to listen to, devastating yes, could jeopardize the entire trial of RA. MS have no inside knowledge but this leak is believed will be the topic of the upcoming court hearing, leak appeared to be from discovery and was “defence friendly”. This leak will be taken very serious by the court, potential contempt of court charges or to at the other extreme could even lead to defence attorneys being removed.

If you‘ve been sent crime scene photos do the right thing and just delete them. Imagine if the victim was your loved one.

 

[Emma Peel]

'Cultist' who Delphi defense blames for 'ritualistic' murders breaks silence after being accused of Snapchat killings - Dailynationtoday

reads like a summary of portion of defense memo re: tips and resulting odonist POIs interviews/swabs back in 2017/18 ...

 

[Bergmann]

I’d expect there’s difficulty in collecting DNA from any outdoor crime scene, as opposed to interior crime scenes including door knobs, handles, furniture and hard floors.

But if there was no DNA found on the bodies or clothing of the girls, possibly suggesting gloves were worn, why would it be expected DNA found on a bunch of sticks (if possible to recover) would identify the killer? IMO too much meaningless focus on sticks, as sticks were not the murder weason.

Wow why bother collecting anything for testing.

Don’t know where the DNA came from or it’s source or type but LE said early on they had samples from the crime scene (obviously may or may not be true or useful and just a LE tactic etc).

 

[MistyWaters]

I just to the first part of GH’s latest live video. He once again made a remark about the ridiculous, juvenile tone of the memo, says no way was it written by attorneys (I think we all agree), and he goes on to allege it was put together by a bunch of youtubers.

I know nothing about the identity of the leakers but if not the legal team who wrote the memo, then it seems to me that the Discovery had to have been unlawfully shared with those who wrote it, in order for them to be privy to details of the case. How else would the writers have access to the details that have never been publicized?

Surely the defence team would know better than handing out confidential discovery documents? I guess we’ll find out more during the hearing on the 19th.

What a mess. So sorry for the families who display such remarkable patience and dignity. It’s like one step forward and two steps back.

 

[MistyWaters]

Wow why bother collecting anything for testing.

Don’t know where the DNA came from or it’s source or type but LE said early on they had samples from the crime scene (obviously may or may not be true or useful and just a LE tactic etc).

Right, we really don’t know anything about DNA pertaining to this case other than at the beginning numerous statements were made about awaiting results from unspecified items sent for testing.

Not all cases are solved by DNA.

 

[SkyBoomer]

I just to the first part of GH’s latest live video. He once again made a remark about the ridiculous, juvenile tone of the memo, says no way was it written by attorneys (I think we all agree), and he goes on to allege it was put together by a bunch of youtubers.

I know nothing about the identity of the leakers but if not the legal team who wrote the memo, then it seems to me that the Discovery had to have been unlawfully shared with those who wrote it, in order for them to be privy to details of the case. How else would the writers have access to the details that have never been publicized?

What a mess. So sorry for the families who display such remarkable patience and dignity. It’s like one step forward and two steps back.

Well, I mean this is GH- I can’t even listen to his videos bc of his attitude. But this is totally batty.

 

[Boxer]

Wow why bother collecting anything for testing.

Don’t know where the DNA came from or it’s source or type but LE said early on they had samples from the crime scene (obviously may or may not be true or useful and just a LE tactic etc).

Forensics basically took the forest floor to the lab - it to two years to test all the surfaces.
MOO not taking the sticks to the lab is just more police used to low demand work, suddenly needing to perform.
MOO these errors are same basic error as saying the worst thing that was going to happen is a cold night, or losing the prime suspect.

 

[Bergmann]

Forensics basically took the forest floor to the lab

Apart from the sticks that were actually laid on the bodies.

And not the bark off the tree with one of the girls blood on it.

But yeah the rest of the forest floor which was clearly more important.

MOO not taking the sticks to the lab is just more police used to low demand work, suddenly needing to perform.

MOO which is small town LE out of their depth.

 

[Emma Peel]

Worthwhile to listen to, devastating yes, could jeopardize the entire trial of RA. MS have no inside knowledge but this leak is believed will be the topic of the upcoming court hearing, leak appeared to be from discovery and was “defence friendly”. This leak will be taken very serious by the court, potential contempt of court charges or to at the other extreme could even lead to defence attorneys being removed.

If you‘ve been sent crime scene photos do the right thing and just delete them. Imagine if the victim was your loved one.

It was a long and winding slog but I listened.

Sounded like MS had a rough week.

JMHO, the first tell is that MS starts this episode asserting that the episode is not about the case but about the podcasters who podcast around the case. Hmmm.

(Journalism Rule #1. Reporters should not become the story.)

MS then ends the podcast asserting that this is all about the case which is now in some type of jeopardy of having the defense team removed.

(Okay, so it is about the case after all?)

During the podcast, MS laid out a social media caper timeline:
crime-scene-photo leak - quickly spreads to podcasters and social media - MS responsible podcast holds back - a mole reaches out - text screens are shot - leaker is ID'd - "research" on FB is performed - LE is informed - Defense is informed - and in the end - the leaker's suicide ...
all related to the Delhi case.

MS eventually turned in (to the Indiana State Police), the crime scene photos in their possession, along with their research info as to source of leak.

Then, MS called the Defense to notify them as well "to be fair".

Essentially, MS inserts itself into this case. (I'm not judging. Just saying. It was voluntary.)

Does this make MS a witness in this case?

(IMO seems a bit odd, that MS would take it upon themselves to call the Defense. LE or P would have to tell D. Weird they felt that was necessary. One of these podcasters has a law practice so ... law-bro code?)

It felt to me that the leak and ... the leaker's suicide ... were the real stories here.

It felt to me like MS decided THEY wanted to tell the story b/4 someone else did.

*********
Let's assume the MS timeline and leak story - are accurately portrayed.

IMO, I think we'd need to take a beat and think about how leaked facts - that the Defense already has possession of - hurts the Defense, hurts RA, hurts the Prosecution, hurts LE, hurts the victims/family, hurts the Press?

Harm to LE Investigation
I can see how it hurts the ongoing LE investigation (which LE - last we knew - insists is ongoing?)
MS "reports" how grateful LE was and how seriously they took the leak.
I would think LE would be devastated.

Harm to Defense - Disciplinary?
MS doesn't say how their "we have the leaked crime scene photos and notified ISP" conversation went with the Defense.

If the leak came from defense side (MS has not explained this, only loosely implied a connection)
- that's against rules. It's also against gag order. Warning or Contempt of Court? BUT BUT BUT ...
(as MS describes) we now have the leaker's psychological state in play and under question. Is the leaker's judgement the defense's fault here? MS doesn't say how the "we have the leaked crime scene photos" chat went with the Defense.

IMO, MS speculating the viability of the defense team or the defense's case due to the leak - seems a bit over the top. Removing RA's defense team, if they are vigorously repping RA... slows the case ... and ... gives RA reason to question the fairness of trial when they pull the rug out from under him for something that's not his fault.

Harm to Facts/Both Prosecution and Defense
As to the damage of facts (crime scene photos) being released to public (inappropriately) - they'd be presented at trial. They'd be kept private/jury/experts/court only. What's the damage if the facts are widely seen? (I think nothing but public opinion pre-trial would be affected - and that is already a national problem and that problem already exists in spades.)

Harm to RA.
Venue? Can he still have a fair trial? (I think yes.) Maybe now he's assured of a trial open to the public? Which is what he asked for.

Harm to Victim/Family:
They might have a case. I don't know; I haven't researched it. Perhaps against anyone that monetized them. The leaker? Against those (podcasters etc) that monetize their social media? Against any advertisers. (On this - high-five to the ethical Murder Sheet!)

Harm to the 4th Estate:
As to damage to the Press. None.

All things considered ... Is MS expecting their involvement to make it into the court record? Is MS a new witness? Are they getting ahead of the court news cycle?

And I do agree w/ MS; the leak was massively disrespectful to the process, family, and victims.

(Forgive me but ... listening to 29 minutes of chiding for 4 minutes of news ... that was painful.)

 

[zh0r4]

I’d expect there’s difficulty in collecting DNA from any outdoor crime scene, as opposed to interior crime scenes including door knobs, handles, furniture and hard floors.

But if there was no DNA found on the bodies or clothing of the girls, possibly suggesting gloves were worn, why would it be expected DNA found on a bunch of sticks (if possible to recover) would identify the killer? IMO too much meaningless focus on sticks, as sticks were not the murder weason.

It’s possible the transfer of DNA to surrounding objects could be due to blood spatter. Blood could be transferred if the bodies were moved. Also, it’s possible the perp(s) could have unknowingly injured themselves and left blood DNA behind, even if wearing gloves (i.e., scratching their arm/leg/etc).

The reason the sticks could be focused on as a potential source of DNA is due to the alleged blood DNA of one of the victims found on one of the trees nearby, discussed in the D memo on page 30 (attached below). While you might not take entire sticks and branches as evidence, you could still use something like Luminol to detect if any blood was on any sticks/trees/branches besides the one and collect whatever pieces may have blood DNA on them. Regardless of whether or not anything was intentionally painted with victims’ blood as suggested by D, the DNA found on the one tree would give enough reason to check the surrounding area for more (which maybe they did). JMO

 

[zh0r4]

Besides the bullet that allegedly came from RA’s gun and happened to be at the crime scene, is there ANY other evidence to go on that RA did it??

Unless the P is sitting on evidence we are unaware of, no. Only the eye witness accounts, allegations of where his car was at certain times, and the unspent cartridge, which are all shaky. The most damning piece of evidence so far is his alleged confession. All JMO.