IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #173

[EOA]

I failed to mention that interestingly Aine & Kevin from TMS appear to be based in, or have some connection to, Fishers (ne suburb of Indpls) as well as RF.

Thus the chain of the leak IMO from what we've been told would be that MW (Westfield IN) emailed the converted photos+ obtained an hour away in Franklin to RF (Fishers IN - one town to the southeast) who then forwards to a man in Texas who we don't know the relationship/connection with any parties MOO, who lastly forwards to a podcast back in Fishers IN.

Westfield/Fishers fall in the range of approx 1hr 20 minutes from Delphi.

In my list above I also could have listed that:
RUSHVILLE (EF/others from FM) to DELPHI = approx 128 miles and approx 2hrs 6mins

 

[DeDee]

LEO leaned hard in some areas of their continual investigation.

Did RA know RL? Both enjoyed tossing back a brewsky or two. I can see the mutual indulgence as a possible way of introduction. Maybe RL filled his pharmacy prescriptions and spoke to RA at CVS.

Did RA meet KAK when he lived in Peru? Kline seemed to perform his insidious and illegal entanglements from home. If RA worked at a CVS in Peru, what are the odds of them encountering one another and establishing a connection?

Did RA, in Delphi, know BH in Logansport? If so, how? Did they hang out at the same pubs or were they careful not to be seen together afterwards?

Other than KAK, do others somehow connect to the A_Shots acct? Sworn testimony is that RA has no electronics connecting him to the crimes so is the answer no for RA?

RA is being charged with felony murder for they allegedly died as a result of being kidnapping. Who is the P going to arrest for being the actual killer, Murder 1? Would a jury want to know who RA was leading the girls to on that day?

 

[EOA]

LEO leaned hard in some areas of their continual investigation.

Did RA know RL? Both enjoyed tossing back a brewsky or two. I can see the mutual indulgence as a possible way of introduction. Maybe RL filled his pharmacy prescriptions and spoke to RA at CVS.

Did RA meet KAK when he lived in Peru? Kline seemed to perform his insidious and illegal entanglements from home. If RA worked at a CVS in Peru, what are the odds of them encountering one another and establishing a connection?

Did RA, in Delphi, know BH in Logansport? If so, how? Did they hang out at the same pubs or were they careful not to be seen together afterwards?

Other than KAK, do others somehow connect to the A_Shots acct? Sworn testimony is that RA has no electronics connecting him to the crimes so is the answer no for RA?

RA is being charged with felony murder for they allegedly died as a result of being kidnapping. Who is the P going to arrest for being the actual killer, Murder 1? Would a jury want to know who RA was leading the girls to on that day?

I recall reading in an obituary of KA's brother (2016, pre-death of Abby & Libby) how large her multi-generational family was in the Peru, Indiana and Mexico, Indiana areas, and how much they enjoyed gatherings filled with food and games which would indicate a certain frequency. Almost without doubt, per your above, there was a degree of intersection (but doesn't imply life-long relationships) at one time or another with a fair number of persons mentioned within this case, or their kids, or their parents, etc. <modsnip - opinion stated as fact/off topic>

With all of the parents, siblings & their spouses, children, nieces/nephews, cousins, etc who apparently lived in the area & attended these family gatherings - and would've been inundated with news coverage and photos of BG, it hearkens back the amazement that RA was not recognized as BG unless some did in fact tip him in to LE and it's simply unbeknownst right now to us.

Your last sentence/question is brilliant IMO. If RA is guilty of Felony Murder via the kidnapping (and he may well be) but wasn't the actual Murder 1 killer, (which he may well not be) he must certainly know who he was leading the girls to - plausible exception being that he was paid as some stooge to direct A&L to some place then exited without knowing what happened later and/or who actually took over A&L following his departure. What would he have to gain by not telling what he knows if if fact he does know something, unless we're back to threats to safety of his family if he talks?

 

[mrjitty]

This waiting is getting pretty frustrating. I expected the D to do something by now.
Are they just waiting for the SC to make their decisions?
There are still motions to be heard no matter what the decisions are, aren't there?

Meanwhile, the months in prison drag on for RA; maybe he'll eventually totally break and make a better confession.

I assumed the trial was stayed pending RAs writ. So he is doing something. Could be wrong! Not a procedural expert!

 

[sunshineray]

LEO leaned hard in some areas of their continual investigation.

Did RA know RL? Both enjoyed tossing back a brewsky or two. I can see the mutual indulgence as a possible way of introduction. Maybe RL filled his pharmacy prescriptions and spoke to RA at CVS.

Did RA meet KAK when he lived in Peru? Kline seemed to perform his insidious and illegal entanglements from home. If RA worked at a CVS in Peru, what are the odds of them encountering one another and establishing a connection?

Did RA, in Delphi, know BH in Logansport? If so, how? Did they hang out at the same pubs or were they careful not to be seen together afterwards?

Other than KAK, do others somehow connect to the A_Shots acct? Sworn testimony is that RA has no electronics connecting him to the crimes so is the answer no for RA?

RA is being charged with felony murder for they allegedly died as a result of being kidnapping. Who is the P going to arrest for being the actual killer, Murder 1? Would a jury want to know who RA was leading the girls to on that day?

Did RA also at one time work at Stellantis (Chrysler)?

 

[mrjitty]

Murder Sheet had a very interesting interview today with a guy who is a habeas lawyer. He mostly thinks the D should be restored but he was also clear to say he has not "drunk the defence kool aid". He felt it was unwise to impute motives to people the way Defence Diaries has done. So rather than any conspiracy about not being ready for trial, more like the judge just messed up the law.

One thing he raised was the possibility that SCOIN could restore Rozzi and Baldwin as pro bono which would be kind of hilarious.

 

[DeDee]

I recall reading in an obituary of KA's brother (2016, pre-death of Abby & Libby) how large her multi-generational family was in the Peru, Indiana and Mexico, Indiana areas, and how much they enjoyed gatherings filled with food and games which would indicate a certain frequency. Almost without doubt, per your above, there was a degree of intersection (but doesn't imply life-long relationships) at one time or another with a fair number of persons mentioned within this case, or their kids, or their parents, etc. Very often in these parts of rural Indiana, a large % of people live their entire life inside a 10-mile radius.

With all of the parents, siblings & their spouses, children, nieces/nephews, cousins, etc who apparently lived in the area & attended these family gatherings - and would've been inundated with news coverage and photos of BG, it hearkens back the amazement that RA was not recognized as BG unless some did in fact tip him in to LE and it's simply unbeknownst right now to us.

Your last sentence/question is brilliant IMO. If RA is guilty of Felony Murder via the kidnapping (and he may well be) but wasn't the actual Murder 1 killer, (which he may well not be) he must certainly know who he was leading the girls to - plausible exception being that he was paid as some stooge to direct A&L to some place then exited without knowing what happened later and/or who actually took over A&L following his departure. What would he have to gain by not telling what he knows if if fact he does know something, unless we're back to threats to safety of his family if he talks?

Thank you for your kind words and especially for helping us to understand the local social climate, etal. I agree a certain degree of acquaintance can be expected with the KAK Peru connection but does RA know about A_S since his electronics are negative for connections to A&L?

The 2nd warrant obtained was when FBI Supervisory Special Agent Bob Ramsey, bureau investigators executed a search warrant FEB 25 at a [Peru] home on Canal Street that didn't yield a connection to the crimes. I believe both warrants were RSOs, leading me to believe the frontend of the investigation centered around SOs.

"Very often in these parts of rural Indiana, a large % of people live their entire life inside a 10-mile radius."

<modsnip - opinion stated as fact>
My understanding of the CS is that the sticks were not placed randomly in order to cover or hide the children but rather they were placed in specific patterns that garnered attention of LEOs. If the killer wanted to trick the police by implicting Odins, then they're more evil in their premeditated strategy than originally thought.

I'd be interested in # of times RA's cellular tracked to MHB in the months prior. Given the timeline, BG was hustling across and nearly running across that scary, high, rickety bridge. BG had obviously been on the bridge many, many times before. BG seemed comfortable.

It is sad, uncanny and most unfortunate that it was Abby's first and only time on MHB. RIP precious girls

JMHOO

 

[M. Kay]

Other than KAK, do others somehow connect to the A_Shots acct? Sworn testimony is that RA has no electronics connecting him to the crimes so is the answer no for RA?

RA is being charged with felony murder for they allegedly died as a result of being kidnapping. Who is the P going to arrest for being the actual killer, Murder 1? Would a jury want to know who RA was leading the girls to on that day?

These are the questions! I believe RA diverted, delivered the girls; so when overwrought (fearful/exhausted) confesses, he's "same as" being the killer. Probably (2) others waited. By the time RA's jury is deliberating, I'd bet we'll all know who, as A-Shots, was waiting.

 

[DeDee]

Did RA also at one time work at Stellantis (Chrysler)?

Attorneys often ask questions when they already know the answer. TY. I have not heard or read that RA did. Have you? TK worked for Stanllenis in Kokomo.

I think it's fair for us to vet RA's possible habits and stuff he was interested in doing.

 

[Ward Thisperer]

Murder Sheet had a very interesting interview today with a guy who is a habeas lawyer. He mostly thinks the D should be restored but he was also clear to say he has not "drunk the defence kool aid". He felt it was unwise to impute motives to people the way Defence Diaries has done. So rather than any conspiracy about not being ready for trial, more like the judge just messed up the law.

One thing he raised was the possibility that SCOIN could restore Rozzi and Baldwin as pro bono which would be kind of hilarious.

This interview was excellent, I listened to it like 3 times today lol. It sounded like they might be doing another episode with this guest discussing his work more generally which I’m looking forward to.
Link: ‎Murder Sheet: The Delphi Murders: Richard Allen Goes to the Indiana Supreme Court: A Conversation with Indiana University Maurer School of Law Federal Habeas Project Director Michael Ausbrook on Apple Podcasts

Some additional summary points because I found this so interesting
- He doesn't think that a crime was committed in regards to the leak. "Hennessy said he could have a defense ready in 20 minutes, I told him he was slow"
- He refers to the leak as a nothingburger as it didn't seem to impact RA's defense and doesn't think there was any duty to report to the court about the leak of the thumbdrive map to BW. He thinks it could have been seen as something so unimportant AB forgot to even notify BR.
- If JG thought the actions of B&R rose to the level of criminal contempt the process would have involved due process with a special judge
- He says that gross negligence is not a legal standard, if she thought they were being incompetent she could have appointed a lawyer to discuss the concerns with RA so he could make an informed decision
- He was involved with a case involving JG in 2021 where a PD representing a client in front of her got up at a sentencing hearing and didn't bother to make any argument or even prepare for the hearing with him. He says he raised this with with a couple of trial judges and they said they'd get a new PD in there and continue the hearing if needed, but JG didn't do anything. Here is the case opinion from the US 7th circuit court of appeals, they issued a write Habeas Corpus and remanded to sentencing: Lewis v. Zatecky, 993 F.3d 994 | Casetext Search + Citator
- Regarding JG he says “never ascribe to malice what can adequately be explained by negligence or incompetence”
- He agrees the FM is “practically a work of art” but thinks the step by step description of the crime was probably a bit much. He says there was nothing in the FM that was unprofessional.
- “Does anyone seriously think that these lawyers would have been disqualified if there was no FM?” “the disclosures might have been an excuse”
- He says part of the bad optics for JG is not transferring RA despite lack of objection from the P
- He emphasizes the threshold is high for ineffective assistance of counsel especially when a client assents or consents to a lawyer’s strategy.
- “The counsel of choice problem is not going to go away” and refers to a trial without counsel of choice as a constitutional violation. He thinks that from a Habeas lawyer’s perspective “the only real resolution of this case that is going to be legally supportable is the judge is gone and the former lawyers are back” and believes there is a Habeas case if not, that RA can claim federally he is being held in violation of the constitution.
- He believes also relevant to potential habeas claim is “state interference with counsel” and uses wording from opinion of Chief Justice Rush to emphasize that the judge = the state
- He says that a writ of habeas would request “either release Mr Allen or give him back his counsel of choice”
- He believes that a WoM was appropriate in this situation and that an appeal wouldn’t have been adequate.

Guest is Michael Ausbrook
“The Law School’s Habeas Litigation Practicum familiarizes students with the fundamentals of federal habeas corpus litigation as they work on real cases. (In the US legal system, writs of habeas corpus (Latin for “that you have the body”) are used to determine whether the state’s continued detention of a prisoner is lawful.) Students in the practicum study the basic statutes, rules, and case law that govern habeas litigation. They also conduct legal research, draft documents connected with filings, and investigate the facts of current or potential cases. When possible, students also visit clients in Indiana prisons.

Adjunct Professor Michael Ausbrook, ’93, teaches the course. He is an attorney in private practice and former public defender in Marion County, Ind. and a recipient of the Gideon Award from the Indiana Public Defender Council.”

Habeas litigation: Practica: Experiential education: Academics: Maurer School of Law: Indiana University Bloomington

Habeas litigation

law.indiana.edu

 

[sunshineray]

Attorneys often ask questions when they already know the answer. TY. I have not heard or read that RA did. Have you? TK worked for Stanllenis in Kokomo.

I think it's fair for us to vet RA's possible habits and stuff he was interested in doing.

Nothing in MM has been mentioned if he did. I thought from your post maybe you'd read something I missed that could be posted.

 

[DeDee]

Nothing in MM has been mentioned if he did. I thought from your post maybe you'd read something I missed that could be posted.

Oddly enough, the KAK stuff was totally omitted from the D Memo. Evidently, TK and KAK must have solid alibis. Did the final outcome of the 5 weeks long search of the Wabash River in Peru produce any evidence at all?

“Obviously Indiana state police did not go on the record saying that but we had sources who did tell us that it was Delphi related,” Aine Cain said."
Police said Kline's device logged into the "anthony_shots" Snapchat account the day that the girls were killed. Police also accused Kline of communicating with Libby on the day she was killed, according to the transcript.

Is it possible to trick the time clock at work in some fashion or another, for an ex., by asking a co-worker for a favor to punch him out at the day's end? Is there any way of knowing how Stanllenis timesheets get reported to accounting?

 

[Becky Starkey]

Oddly enough, the KAK stuff was totally omitted from the D Memo. Evidently, TK and KAK must have solid alibis. Did the final outcome of the 5 weeks long search of the Wabash River in Peru produce any evidence at all?

“Obviously Indiana state police did not go on the record saying that but we had sources who did tell us that it was Delphi related,” Aine Cain said."
Police said Kline's device logged into the "anthony_shots" Snapchat account the day that the girls were killed. Police also accused Kline of communicating with Libby on the day she was killed, according to the transcript.

Is it possible to trick the time clock at work in some fashion or another, for an ex., by asking a co-worker for a favor to punch him out at the day's end? Is there any way of knowing how Stanllenis timesheets get reported to accounting?

They don't have timesheets per say, it's electronic. They go through fencing and gates with a card that scans you in and out. You can leave it in your billfold or purse. Your immediate supervisor approves it and then goes to a payroll company in Jamaica. imo as a spouse of a Stellantis plant worker, but not Kokomo. So if your boss is willing to change it, it's possible.

 

[mrjitty]

The stuff about whether MW actually committed a crime is interesting, and I wonder if he might not have a decent defence. His affidavit that he gave to Judge Gull's court was very narrow, and simply admitted he took the photos while AB was not there, without his knowledge.

However i wonder if he will then argue in his criminal case, that he was in the room with permission, accessed the discovery with permission and took the photo with implied consent because they were collaborating on the case. He might then argue that the bad thing he did was to leak the photo, but that is not a crime.

My wild speculation only

 

[FrostedGlass]

I think the jury trial demand is interesting.
Does he want to tell the public the reason why he took and shared the photos?

 

[FrostedGlass]

Update for Westerman

12/07/2023	CANCELED Initial Hearing Reason: Other Session: 12/07/2023 9:00 AM, Cancelled
01/18/2024	Pretrial Conference Session: 01/18/2024 9:00 AM, Judicial Officer: Cummins, Douglas B.

 

[girlhasnoname]

This interview was excellent, I listened to it like 3 times today lol. It sounded like they might be doing another episode with this guest discussing his work more generally which I’m looking forward to.
Link: ‎Murder Sheet: The Delphi Murders: Richard Allen Goes to the Indiana Supreme Court: A Conversation with Indiana University Maurer School of Law Federal Habeas Project Director Michael Ausbrook on Apple Podcasts

Some additional summary points because I found this so interesting
- He doesn't think that a crime was committed in regards to the leak. "Hennessy said he could have a defense ready in 20 minutes, I told him he was slow"
- He refers to the leak as a nothingburger as it didn't seem to impact RA's defense and doesn't think there was any duty to report to the court about the leak of the thumbdrive map to BW. He thinks it could have been seen as something so unimportant AB forgot to even notify BR.
- If JG thought the actions of B&R rose to the level of criminal contempt the process would have involved due process with a special judge
- He says that gross negligence is not a legal standard, if she thought they were being incompetent she could have appointed a lawyer to discuss the concerns with RA so he could make an informed decision
- He was involved with a case involving JG in 2021 where a PD representing a client in front of her got up at a sentencing hearing and didn't bother to make any argument or even prepare for the hearing with him. He says he raised this with with a couple of trial judges and they said they'd get a new PD in there and continue the hearing if needed, but JG didn't do anything. Here is the case opinion from the US 7th circuit court of appeals, they issued a write Habeas Corpus and remanded to sentencing: Lewis v. Zatecky, 993 F.3d 994 | Casetext Search + Citator
- Regarding JG he says “never ascribe to malice what can adequately be explained by negligence or incompetence”
- He agrees the FM is “practically a work of art” but thinks the step by step description of the crime was probably a bit much. He says there was nothing in the FM that was unprofessional.
- “Does anyone seriously think that these lawyers would have been disqualified if there was no FM?” “the disclosures might have been an excuse”
- He says part of the bad optics for JG is not transferring RA despite lack of objection from the P
- He emphasizes the threshold is high for ineffective assistance of counsel especially when a client assents or consents to a lawyer’s strategy.
- “The counsel of choice problem is not going to go away” and refers to a trial without counsel of choice as a constitutional violation. He thinks that from a Habeas lawyer’s perspective “the only real resolution of this case that is going to be legally supportable is the judge is gone and the former lawyers are back” and believes there is a Habeas case if not, that RA can claim federally he is being held in violation of the constitution.
- He believes also relevant to potential habeas claim is “state interference with counsel” and uses wording from opinion of Chief Justice Rush to emphasize that the judge = the state
- He says that a writ of habeas would request “either release Mr Allen or give him back his counsel of choice”
- He believes that a WoM was appropriate in this situation and that an appeal wouldn’t have been adequate.

Guest is Michael Ausbrook
“The Law School’s Habeas Litigation Practicum familiarizes students with the fundamentals of federal habeas corpus litigation as they work on real cases. (In the US legal system, writs of habeas corpus (Latin for “that you have the body”) are used to determine whether the state’s continued detention of a prisoner is lawful.) Students in the practicum study the basic statutes, rules, and case law that govern habeas litigation. They also conduct legal research, draft documents connected with filings, and investigate the facts of current or potential cases. When possible, students also visit clients in Indiana prisons.

Adjunct Professor Michael Ausbrook, ’93, teaches the course. He is an attorney in private practice and former public defender in Marion County, Ind. and a recipient of the Gideon Award from the Indiana Public Defender Council.”

Habeas litigation: Practica: Experiential education: Academics: Maurer School of Law: Indiana University Bloomington

Habeas litigation

law.indiana.edu

I think this guy MA is blowing a lot of smoke and loves to hear himself speak.

If he thinks that the release and distribution of stolen CS photos (very exploitive ones at that) is a nothing burger, I have a problem with him right off the bat.

The Judge has a right to DQ the court appointed Defense lawyers for gross misconduct and negligence. It was the totality of several acts of misconduct by the D that led to Judge G's decision to DQ them. Of course, they could have fought that decision in open court on the record but preferred to say "we withdraw" in chambers and then turn around and do the opposite.

I am linking an interesting recent article where MA was involved in a habeas petition and lost.
<snipped>

Shortly before the Indiana Supreme Court denied review, public defender Michael Sauer, who was representing C in the post-conviction proceedings, initiated an email exchange with Michael Ausbrook, a habeas corpus practitioner who teaches habeas litigation at Indiana University’s Maurer School of Law.

Sauer initially wanted to know whether Ausbrook might be interested in representing C in connection with his anticipated habeas petition: The Indiana public defender’s office did not represent clients in federal habeas proceedings, and Sauer had no experience with such proceedings.

Ausbrook thought that the Sixth Amendment speedy trial claim might be worth pursuing in a petition for certiorari before Conner sought relief in habeas.

Conner had 90 days from the date of the Indiana Supreme Court’s order in which to file a petition, and Sauer wondered whether the one-year habeas clock would remain paused during that period.

So he asked Ausbrook, again via email, “Does the habeas clock remain tolled for 90 days after transfer is denied, regardless of whether a cert[.] petition is ultimately filed?”

Ausbrook replied: “The clock only remains stopped if a cert. petition is actually filed. It’s not like after a direct-appeal decision when you get the 90 days regardless of whether a cert. petition is filed.”

According to the 7th Circuit, this advice was wrong.

Mistaken legal advice doesn’t rise to level of ‘extraordinary circumstance,’ 7th Circuit rules in affirming district court dismissal of habeas petition - The Indiana Lawyer

ETA: MOO

 

[mrjitty]

Vets of the McStay trial will recall this issue of SODDI alibis actually came up. Short version, the alternative suspect was out of state in Hawaii at the time of the murders and law enforcement had airline reservations and banking transactions to support the alibi. Thus the evidential foundation existed to rule him out.

Having lied to the jury in opening, the defence then had to confront this evidence when it emerged on direct. The problem was that counsel can't simply speculate that the suspect faked his alibi. You need evidence to establish a reasonable possibility.

IMO that is the hard ask here.

 

[steeltowngirl]

LEO leaned hard in some areas of their continual investigation.

Did RA know RL? Both enjoyed tossing back a brewsky or two. I can see the mutual indulgence as a possible way of introduction. Maybe RL filled his pharmacy prescriptions and spoke to RA at CVS.

Did RA meet KAK when he lived in Peru? Kline seemed to perform his insidious and illegal entanglements from home. If RA worked at a CVS in Peru, what are the odds of them encountering one another and establishing a connection?

Did RA, in Delphi, know BH in Logansport? If so, how? Did they hang out at the same pubs or were they careful not to be seen together afterwards?

Other than KAK, do others somehow connect to the A_Shots acct? Sworn testimony is that RA has no electronics connecting him to the crimes so is the answer no for RA?

RA is being charged with felony murder for they allegedly died as a result of being kidnapping. Who is the P going to arrest for being the actual killer, Murder 1? Would a jury want to know who RA was leading the girls to on that day?

Or someone who was having photographs printed at CVS met RA, leading to payoffs to RA to secretly print or distribute CSAM.

 

[iamshadow21]

They don't have timesheets per say, it's electronic. They go through fencing and gates with a card that scans you in and out. You can leave it in your billfold or purse. Your immediate supervisor approves it and then goes to a payroll company in Jamaica. imo as a spouse of a Stellantis plant worker, but not Kokomo. So if your boss is willing to change it, it's possible.

Presumably you also have to mess with security cameras and the memories of all your co-workers, too.

Seems like a big ask. It's not like Chrysler is a small employer with no protocols or security to prevent payroll fraud.

That boss would have to value doing that person a favour over their own job.

MOO