Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #145

[TL4S]

You pretty much nailed the revolving information about walking ladies and dogs! HaHa!
Sadly, I don’t think we can trust anything LE tells us anymore either. For almost five years they told us almost nothing and we held on to those pieces of info like gold. Then LE tells us in December 2021, after telling us for years there was no connection to the internet or catfishing, that it was a huge part of the case, and they’ve known it since a couple weeks after the murders at least. It’s hard to know who to believe about any of it.

Ever since the a_shots release, I have had to rethink everything I'd concluded up to that point, including theories I had dismissed (catfishing, SM, father/son, LE knowing who the suspect is, etc.), which I'd dismissed in part because of things LE said.

The two sketches were confusing, the statements DC made about the sketches were confusing, the entire April 2019 PC was confusing. And so few details were released, much to the public's dismay, all in the name of "protecting the integrity of the case."

Now I sort of wonder if it wasn't just the double-murder case LE was protecting, but also the CSAM case. Maybe the FBI stated the Peru house residents were not involved in the murders for one reason...to keep the CSAM stuff under wraps. Maybe LE and RI said there was no SM link because they didn't want anyone to know that the biggest CSAM investigation in state history was going on simultaneously, and possibly connected to the murders. Maybe LE couldn't come out asking for specific a_shots tips while the CSAM case was fresh.

Pre-2019, LE had two sketches, one of which was a composite made by multiple people who LE felt had seen the same man on the trails that day. Sketch one, older man. They also already had sketch two, younger man, in their possession, but early on, perhaps they didn't yet know of any connections between these two men. During their two years investigating, they found the a_shots communications with L, they sifted through almost three years of underage messaging and images, tracked down IP addresses, Vegas communications, and put together a picture of CSAM and grooming, including of L. But LE's evidence is digital, like devices and wifi, which leads to a home shared by two individuals. Analysts say the communications appear to be from two different users. Two people had regular access to the same devices over the course of years. The same two people had access to the devices in Vegas. Maybe by April 2019, the younger sketch had more significance than before, and served to connect the double-murders and CSAM cases together, although not publicly. First sketch became secondary, not disregarded entirely. Were these two men connected? Where did LE want to put the most pressure?

Suddenly, and maybe incorrectly, I feel like all the confusion is starting to make sense. Two sketches, a combination of two sketches, two men seen by witnesses, two men with access to the same devices, two men going to Vegas and planning a trip to the Bunny Ranch (and other prostitution) together, two authors (users), two creators of the a_shots account (as suggested by LE in the 2020 interview), emilyanne talking about being with two men at the same time, "my daddy" stuff, two men with Monday afternoons off, two men lying for each other...

 

[Shiningstar]

Question... I'm confused about something or may have misunderstood entirely...

Did AS account or KAK (himself) pay LG for something? Anyone know what he paid her for, if that was the case?

Sorry, looking into a few cases and have brain fog when trying to remember all the details.

TIA.

 

[Shiningstar]

I feel so bad for Kelsi...may she heal and get some closure that will help her move forwards.

Sister of Delphi murder victim heartbroken over secret online chats

THE HEARTBROKEN sister of Delphi “Snapchat murders” victim Libby German says she writes angry letters to her late sibling for hiding online chats she had with an alleged pedophile’s social media ac…

www.the-sun.com

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Question... I'm confused about something or may have misunderstood entirely...

Did AS account or KAK (himself) pay LG for something? Anyone know what he paid her for, if that was the case?

Sorry, looking into a few cases and have brain fog when trying to remember all the details.

TIA.

I think it’s very unclear concerning the talk in the transcript about a_s having a money account.
Some people took it to mean a_s sent Libby money, and i’ve read other people say they thought it was just a reference to a_s profile talking about being rich and sending photos of cars and money to try to back that up.

 

[AC4RD]

The messages were apparently inappropriate and got dumped, but Sandy, I still want to thank you for the heads-up about You-Know-Who-O. I honestly thought the dog-walking lady was officially known information; I had no idea it was just a very poorly sourced rumor.

This is not going to help my theory that BG lurked at the south end for as much as a couple of hours, before going north across the bridge to the trail system, making sure the south end at the creek was empty. It doesn't actually rule it out, I think, but it does remove what I had thought was a supporting detail. Thanks!

 

[Wondergirl]

Deer Creek was quite low when I visited last weekend however it looks like it could be quite a bit higher as indicated by the erosion up the banks.

I could see bottom very easily in some places

All of the river flows and levels are online historically as I've looked them up.

The closest river gauge is measured a little over a mile further upstream from the recovery location.

I checked this a while ago for 3 pm on the 13th and I cannot recall the cfm's, but recall the depth level around 3 feet.

There are alot of factors like the bends in the river, rock features etc. that impact the river flow.

This information is important to note when considering the evidence that I believe was carried downstream, towards and under the bridge, with the natural river flow.

It is also important to consider when trying to piece the timeline for the crimes, if they were sexually assaulted and where. Clothing recovery locations may have been impacted by the current and are not necessarily indicative of the actual crime location.

 

[Wondergirl]

Ever since the a_shots release, I have had to rethink everything I'd concluded up to that point, including theories I had dismissed (catfishing, SM, father/son, LE knowing who the suspect is, etc.), which I'd dismissed in part because of things LE said.

The two sketches were confusing, the statements DC made about the sketches were confusing, the entire April 2019 PC was confusing. And so few details were released, much to the public's dismay, all in the name of "protecting the integrity of the case."

Now I sort of wonder if it wasn't just the double-murder case LE was protecting, but also the CSAM case. Maybe the FBI stated the Peru house residents were not involved in the murders for one reason...to keep the CSAM stuff under wraps. Maybe LE and RI said there was no SM link because they didn't want anyone to know that the biggest CSAM investigation in state history was going on simultaneously, and possibly connected to the murders. Maybe LE couldn't come out asking for specific a_shots tips while the CSAM case was fresh.

Pre-2019, LE had two sketches, one of which was a composite made by multiple people who LE felt had seen the same man on the trails that day. Sketch one, older man. They also already had sketch two, younger man, in their possession, but early on, perhaps they didn't yet know of any connections between these two men. During their two years investigating, they found the a_shots communications with L, they sifted through almost three years of underage messaging and images, tracked down IP addresses, Vegas communications, and put together a picture of CSAM and grooming, including of L. But LE's evidence is digital, like devices and wifi, which leads to a home shared by two individuals. Analysts say the communications appear to be from two different users. Two people had regular access to the same devices over the course of years. The same two people had access to the devices in Vegas. Maybe by April 2019, the younger sketch had more significance than before, and served to connect the double-murders and CSAM cases together, although not publicly. First sketch became secondary, not disregarded entirely. Were these two men connected? Where did LE want to put the most pressure?

Suddenly, and maybe incorrectly, I feel like all the confusion is starting to make sense. Two sketches, a combination of two sketches, two men seen by witnesses, two men with access to the same devices, two men going to Vegas and planning a trip to the Bunny Ranch (and other prostitution) together, two authors (users), two creators of the a_shots account (as suggested by LE in the 2020 interview), emilyanne talking about being with two men at the same time, "my daddy" stuff, two men with Monday afternoons off, two men lying for each other...

Great post.

 

[carbuff]

Speaking as a kayaker/canoeist -- all the pictures I've seen of the creek look like you could, hypothetically, kayak down it fairly easily, though not without some maneuvering. A kayak only needs half a foot or so of water, though someone the size of KAK would probably need more than that. A canoe is longer and might have some issues on the sharper bends and shallows.

Aside: JBC owned more than one kayak. He had pictures on his Facebook when he put them up for sale. They looked more like the large kayaks you'd use for lake fishing, though they'd probably handle a large person better.

 

[Falling Down]

I would be *shocked* if the Kline and Chadwell families were entirely unknown to each other as Peru is, IMO, tiny.

Also … how deep is Deer Creek by MHB? Is it feasible that someone boated down the Wabash from, say, Peru to Dear Creek? (Apologies if boat theories have been done to death in earlier threads. I’m just remembering that, at one point, JBC had kayaks according to his FB.

I was just down that way on business and have visited both Deer and Wildcat creeks, I'll try to answer as best I can.

The creeks drain the countryside, into the Wabash River which is on the west side of Delphi. Deer Creek is a little north of Wildcat. The Wabash actually rises way east of there close to Fort Wayne. Deer and Wildcat creeks rise in Grant or Howard counties, or some combination thereof, roughly due esst of where they end up emptying into the river.

So put another way, one cannot kayak or what have you from Peru into, say, Deer Creek Twp. which is technically where the murders happened.

Hope this helps.

Also I'd like to add that the water gauge by Wilson Bridge is at a narrow stretch of Deer Creek, where it would be deeper than it is by RL's property. Some folks upthread have asked about water depth along there. It varies a bit from the gauge and on to the Wabash R.

 

[Confusion]

I forgot to check the quote boxes while reading, so I'm just going to write a general response. I don't really find it hard to believe that KK didn't know who RL was. If I hadn't been following the case here and reading (and rereading) articles and watching videos, etc., I probably wouldn't have recognized his name after a couple years either. That doesn't mean he told the truth about it, but I don't automatically assume that he's lying either.

The other thing is the sketches again. Has it been confirmed officially that they are definitely sketches of the same man? I have been assuming that they were because there are some fairly strong resemblances between them, but I've also wondered at times if the reason he looks older in one and younger in the other is that it's actually one sketch of KK and one of his father. It seems like a good way to set up an alibi if both men dress in similar clothes, make sure each is seen by different people (and that the 2 are not seen together), and then swear that they were together that day. It sounds like a pretty ridiculous theory, but this whole case has been rather crazy anyway.

 

[TL4S]

I forgot to check the quote boxes while reading, so I'm just going to write a general response. I don't really find it hard to believe that KK didn't know who RL was. If I hadn't been following the case here and reading (and rereading) articles and watching videos, etc., I probably wouldn't have recognized his name after a couple years either. That doesn't mean he told the truth about it, but I don't automatically assume that he's lying either.

The other thing is the sketches again. Has it been confirmed officially that they are definitely sketches of the same man? I have been assuming that they were because there are some fairly strong resemblances between them, but I've also wondered at times if the reason he looks older in one and younger in the other is that it's actually one sketch of KK and one of his father. It seems like a good way to set up an alibi if both men dress in similar clothes, make sure each is seen by different people (and that the 2 are not seen together), and then swear that they were together that day. It sounds like a pretty ridiculous theory, but this whole case has been rather crazy anyway.

Here is one source referring to the two sketches:

Two sketches released in Delphi murders are not of the same man, Indiana State Police say

While both sketches were drawn in 2017, police clarified that the renderings are "not the same person."

 

[Snow_In _June]

Five + years and back I go to the beginning of this sad case. AGAIN

Today I am focusing on the Press Conference held on 02/22/17 listening and watching with fresh ears and eyes.

It is easier with the recent 2022 transcript release, and in hindsight to start making this press conference make sense, suddenly what appeared to be riddles and semantics in 2017 starts unravelling piece by piece.

My persons of interest have no relevance. Suffice to say although I have been down every rabbit hole possible with an open mind I still keep going back unreluctantly to the same people.

Oh yes I say people because I really do think there was more than one person involved.

There is a reason why I think this case hasn’t been solved publicly I think the Delphi Investigation into the Murders of Liberty and Abigail tripped over and active long term investigation being run by another agency.

Carter opened by saying

“Why Libby? Why Abby? Why Delphi? Why Carroll County, why the Region, why the state and why even in the Nation?”

Way back in 2017 I thought in passing WOW what a strong statement and pondered on why the murders of two girls in a small town led him across the Nation.

In 2022 I think the (Delphi) goes even further than the Nation and stretches overseas. The tentacles of the biggest CSCAM in Indiana appear to stretch far and wide.

Of no help to the Libby & Abby families my gut instinct is that Law Enforcement know who the perpetrators are.

As I listened to the first public release of the Voice broadcast to all I really did hear 4 words. I did hear a Get before down the hill. I actually tend to agree with Gray Hughes on that The other thing I heard in the original sound was what appeared to be a heartbeat.

I think the Suspects motive for murdering the girls is simply because they had witnessed him and not only that they had filmed him in a place he shouldn’t have been he wanted the phone, He grabbed the phone, put it in a pocket that picks up his voice and heartbeat as well as footsteps.

He probably chucked it but not realising it was still recording and probably uploading its secrets as and when signal/Wifi was available
The Klines I think they are pivotal to the investigation. I think they are instrumental. I also think they are small fish in a bigger sea full of big sharks.

This sure as hell doesn't help Libby and Abby nor their families but lets hope the delay in Justice is for the Greater Good and for the right reasons.

Let Today be The Day

 

[AC4RD]

Also … how deep is Deer Creek by MHB?

Schatz, in the helicopter footage from the local TV station, from the search on 2/14/2017, you can see searchers in the creek and tell what the depth is like:

If you haven't seen this footage, it's actually very useful IMO in getting an idea of what the actual layout of the area is, and how the scene looked at the time of the search. Glance shows searchers in the water around 5 minutes and around 11 minutes but there is much more IIRC.

Rather than post a second message in a row, just to say "attaboy," @TL4S, you discussed how the initial A&L statements and the sketches may have been affected, because LE presumably knew there was both a major CSAM investigation AND the murder investigation, and they were possibly linked. That sounds entirely plausible to me; I can definitely see that being true. "Attaboy!"

 

[FromGermany1]

I forgot to check the quote boxes while reading, so I'm just going to write a general response. I don't really find it hard to believe that KK didn't know who RL was. If I hadn't been following the case here and reading (and rereading) articles and watching videos, etc., I probably wouldn't have recognized his name after a couple years either. That doesn't mean he told the truth about it, but I don't automatically assume that he's lying either.

The other thing is the sketches again. Has it been confirmed officially that they are definitely sketches of the same man? I have been assuming that they were because there are some fairly strong resemblances between them, but I've also wondered at times if the reason he looks older in one and younger in the other is that it's actually one sketch of KK and one of his father. It seems like a good way to set up an alibi if both men dress in similar clothes, make sure each is seen by different people (and that the 2 are not seen together), and then swear that they were together that day. It sounds like a pretty ridiculous theory, but this whole case has been rather crazy anyway.

bbm
This! But would be possible also with 2 different perps and NOT only father/son (TK/KAK) "team".

 

[JnRyan]

Here is one source referring to the two sketches:

Two sketches released in Delphi murders are not of the same man, Indiana State Police say

While both sketches were drawn in 2017, police clarified that the renderings are "not the same person."

Thanks for that article, @TL4S, as I had been trying to find that ISP clarification not long after that 2019 PC. Note the date of the article, 24 April 2019.

And then ISP Superintendent Carter walks back this statement less than a month later - 16 May 2019 - in an interview.

ISP: We're 'one tip away' from solving Delphi murders

It's been more than two years since Liberty German and Abigail Williams were killed, but investigators continue to hold onto hope.

www.wrtv.com

"The sketch isn’t a photograph. A sketch is a sketch and that’s really important for everybody to understand," Carter said. "I believe that the individual when we catch him, it will be a combination of those two.”

So what was two DIFFERENT persons is now a combination of the two? Mix and match the different features?

 

[sandy_80]

The messages were apparently inappropriate and got dumped, but Sandy, I still want to thank you for the heads-up about You-Know-Who-O. I honestly thought the dog-walking lady was officially known information; I had no idea it was just a very poorly sourced rumor.

This is not going to help my theory that BG lurked at the south end for as much as a couple of hours, before going north across the bridge to the trail system, making sure the south end at the creek was empty. It doesn't actually rule it out, I think, but it does remove what I had thought was a supporting detail. Thanks!

you are welcome...

Five + years and back I go to the beginning of this sad case. AGAIN

Today I am focusing on the Press Conference held on 02/22/17 listening and watching with fresh ears and eyes.

It is easier with the recent 2022 transcript release, and in hindsight to start making this press conference make sense, suddenly what appeared to be riddles and semantics in 2017 starts unravelling piece by piece.

My persons of interest have no relevance. Suffice to say although I have been down every rabbit hole possible with an open mind I still keep going back unreluctantly to the same people.

Oh yes I say people because I really do think there was more than one person involved.

There is a reason why I think this case hasn’t been solved publicly I think the Delphi Investigation into the Murders of Liberty and Abigail tripped over and active long term investigation being run by another agency.

Carter opened by saying

“Why Libby? Why Abby? Why Delphi? Why Carroll County, why the Region, why the state and why even in the Nation?”

Way back in 2017 I thought in passing WOW what a strong statement and pondered on why the murders of two girls in a small town led him across the Nation.

In 2022 I think the (Delphi) goes even further than the Nation and stretches overseas. The tentacles of the biggest CSCAM in Indiana appear to stretch far and wide.

Of no help to the Libby & Abby families my gut instinct is that Law Enforcement know who the perpetrators are.

As I listened to the first public release of the Voice broadcast to all I really did hear 4 words. I did hear a Get before down the hill. I actually tend to agree with Gray Hughes on that The other thing I heard in the original sound was what appeared to be a heartbeat.

I think the Suspects motive for murdering the girls is simply because they had witnessed him and not only that they had filmed him in a place he shouldn’t have been he wanted the phone, He grabbed the phone, put it in a pocket that picks up his voice and heartbeat as well as footsteps.

He probably chucked it but not realising it was still recording and probably uploading its secrets as and when signal/Wifi was available
The Klines I think they are pivotal to the investigation. I think they are instrumental. I also think they are small fish in a bigger sea full of big sharks.

This sure as hell doesn't help Libby and Abby nor their families but lets hope the delay in Justice is for the Greater Good and for the right reasons.

Let Today be The Day

the phone was found ..so it doesnt make sense that bg had it.. cause he would still have it then...also pick the phone but never checking whats in it !

 

[Charlot123]

bbm
This! But would be possible also with 2 different perps and NOT only father/son (TK/KAK) "team".

Two men, “one older, one young” could also be “grandfather, grandson”. In a rural, religious area, I can easily imagine the difference between grandfather - grandson being 36 years, or less. So we may be talking about “18, 54”, or similar combinations.

 

[TL4S]

Thanks for that article, @TL4S, as I had been trying to find that ISP clarification not long after that 2019 PC. Note the date of the article, 24 April 2019.

And then ISP Superintendent Carter walks back this statement less than a month later - 16 May 2019 - in an interview.

ISP: We're 'one tip away' from solving Delphi murders

It's been more than two years since Liberty German and Abigail Williams were killed, but investigators continue to hold onto hope.

www.wrtv.com

"The sketch isn’t a photograph. A sketch is a sketch and that’s really important for everybody to understand," Carter said. "I believe that the individual when we catch him, it will be a combination of those two.”

So what was two DIFFERENT persons is now a combination of the two? Mix and match the different features?

Yeah...very confusing. It doesn't make sense, especially when the suspect description changed, as well. Age, height, weight, all changed between sketches, iirc (but not hair color). So, I understand from DC's statement that these sketches are not photographs, therefore not an identical representation of a person seen by witnesses. That much makes sense. But how do you combine two different people to get one?

What could explain the "combination" word choice? A mix and match of features, like you said, between two different people? Then likely neither sketch is accurate.

But what if those people have similar features because they are related? Or what if both are involved to some extent? This starts to make DC's statement a little less nonsensical to me (imo). It's not a perfect explanation, but I guess the recent a_shots information has made me look at it with a different perspective. Plus, now all descriptors have been removed. It's forward momentum, hopefully. And part of me thinks the new direction and young sketch was speaking directly to a small targeted audience, anyway, rather than the general public.

 

[TL4S]

Rather than post a second message in a row, just to say "attaboy," @TL4S, you discussed how the initial A&L statements and the sketches may have been affected, because LE presumably knew there was both a major CSAM investigation AND the murder investigation, and they were possibly linked. That sounds entirely plausible to me; I can definitely see that being true. "Attaboy!"

@AC4RD Thank you for the "attaboy!" It is 100% speculation on my part, of course, but for the first time in 5+ years I feel like maybe the veil is lifting on all the confusing events and statements. Imagine how much LE discovered between 2/25/17 and early 2019, just on KAK's devices alone. We all knew something had to have changed to bring on such a complete turnabout by April 2019 (if these events were related).

A highly publicized double-murder case and the biggest CSAM investigation in Indiana state history, with a_shots being the common thread? Just think how the mice would have scurried had a CSAM connection been announced early on, before LE could investigate that dropbox account.

 

[M. Kay]

you are welcome...

the phone was found ..so it doesnt make sense that bg had it.. cause he would still have it then...also pick the phone but never checking whats in it !

I don't have the source link now for an early-on report about the phone: I recall that the closest local television station did a story about phone being found in the water. It was transported to special technicians to restore data. I.E., sent away from Delphi. I watched video of that news report, so hoping someone here remembers, though five years after the fact. I'm certain now.