IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #5

[MsFacetious]

I'm not concerned at all that Puerto Rico has both an AG and a US Attorney. I'm very glad, actually. SA has a right to a fair trial and that includes evidence that hasn't been leaked.

JMO

Then perhaps the Wiegands attorney should have kept it to himself.
You don't show something to the media that you don't want leaked.

 

[Midwestmom2019]

The video - with 'likely software issues' - was shown by the family's lawsuit attorney to US reporters as early as Tuesday Nov 26th.
The video - without 'likely software issues' - was posted by PR TV three weeks later on Tuesday Dec 17th.
IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #5



“The video shown to us was not in real time,” correspondent David Begnaud said. The family attorney “says the video that he showed us was the same format he received from prosecutors,” Begnaud added.

Noting a discrepancy in how long Anello was holding Chloe, Begnaud said, “the grandfather actually looks out the window for about eight seconds. He reaches down, he picks Chloe up, and he holds her over the railing for nearly 25 seconds.”

In a statement to CBS News, Winkleman said, “any variation in time likely has to do with software issues.

‘It’s like the glass disappeared’: Grandfather cries as he recounts toddler falling to her death from a cruise ship

Thank you for a much better response. I become exasperated with redundant questions.

 

[Arkay]

Yes, and the news media is giving them a big assist. An American jury is going to have no problem finding for the plaintiff in this case. Having windows that open near a play area is ridiculous.

JMO

This will be my last time responding to this point about Puerto Rico, as I’ve written about it more than once.
What I see in your posts is a continual reference to American juries, SA being an American citizen etc. You seem to be making an effort to distinguish “American” from “Puerto Rican.” Again, as has been mentioned by many posters here, Puerto Rico is an American territory and its citizens are Americans. Anyone who was born in Puerto Rico a day before you has been an American citizen longer than you.
Puerto Rico is not a banana republic, it’s not part of a Third World country, and though you seem to feel SA won’t get a fair criminal trial in Puerto Rico, that’s where he committed his crime. IMO.
I agree with you that “having windows that open near a play area is ridiculous.” If you did in fact watch the video, the one that SHOWS WHAT HAPPENS, you will see that the area in question at the time of this tragedy is NOT a play area. It is in a bar and pool area.
I’m not Puerto Rican and I have no agenda here except justice for Chloe and peace for the Wiegands. It’s just that this has been clarified so many times already.

 

[TDoc72]

The cruise ship video is evidence and will eventually be seen in court. I didn't need to see any video to know the grandfather was negligent as charged for elevating his granddaughter past the safety guard. It was impossible for Chloe to fall out of the window without her grandfather's assistance.

BBM. This is the truest thing I’ve ever read on this thread. For me, the case boils down to exactly that. If I was the prosecutor, I’d be hammering the point.

If the person is color-blind and can't see blue/green, what exactly will they see if they look through a blue tinted window or an open window, 11 stories up? I think they would see the same shade of sky whether window was open or closed.

JMO

Just because someone is color blind (allegedly) doesn’t mean that they can no longer see shades. Darker and lighter. Like sunglasses on or off.

SA isn't a citizen of Puerto Rico, he is an American citizen being prosecuted in a territory of the U.S. but he still has civil rights including the right to a fair trial. The chain of custody on the security video to be used in his prosecution has been broken. I think it is a very serious matter.

JMO

Citizen of Puerto Rico and American citizen are the same. And it’s my opinion that the chain hasn’t been broken. There could be many dvds of the footage floating around, with the original still preserved.

 

[katydid23]

Thank you, that was exactly my point.

IMO, SA was negligent the moment Chloe went over and outside that railing. IMO, he knew the window was open. IMO it is a clear case of negligent homicide.

But the Wiegands are looking for at least partial responsibility on the part of RCCL and the ship design. A big pay-out for 50% or 25% or even 10% responsibility (not to mention how much better SA and the rest of the family would feel about that).

SA was rocking the baby on the railing and she was pitched forward and out. This could have happened without SA's head or arm reach going totally past the window opening.

Like nearly everyone else who has viewed the La Comay video, I also thought SA had breached the opening of the window to the outside just prior to lifting Chloe over the railing. After many views, though, I am thinking that is unlikely.

IMO, it is going to be hard to prove that any part of his body breached that opening. And IMO, this case is not going to be the "slam dunk" that we all thought it was going to be, upon first viewing the video.

I don't think the family will get 10% or even 5% from RCCL for their civil liability.

He picked up the baby and lifted her OVER and PAST the guard railing. He set her down, at the very least, on the window ledge. He was only holding her with one arm, 11 stories up in the air...

Even if it cannot be proven that she was fully outside the window, she was at the very least, placed past the safety rail and perched on the ledge.

I think her feet had to have been dangling over the ledge because her body would not be able to fit totally within the ledge. JMO

He has no rational explanation for the way he placed her tiny body at that height in that dangerous situation. I think it is criminal negligence on his part, 100%.

 

[katydid23]

IMO, they have not viewed the video, in order not to prejudice their own testimony or feelings as to SA's innocence or guilt while they await what could be well over a year until trial.

Remembering their backgrounds as a police officer and Assistant Prosecutor, it is not their job to declare his innocence or guilt. It will be up to a jury to decide that.

IF TRUE, that bolded portion seems very hypocritical and unethical.

How can they go on a national press tour, making aggressive accusations against the cruise line company if ,in fact ,they had not seen the video and did not see what really happened?

 

[katydid23]

We'll agree to disagree. The mother stated her reason for not wanting the video public was to protect her older child. I find it to be a very compelling reason and would feel the same way.

SA is an American citizen and has rights. Puerto Rico has its own Attorney General but there is also a U S Attorney for the District of Puerto Rico. I think there will be an investigation underway into who released the video.

JMO

1-7.000 - Confidentiality and Media Contacts Policy

So Mom's number one priority was to protect her 11 yr old. Is that why she went on a media tour---appearing on several national TV shows, Like Good Morning America and CBS News?

A portion of that video was given by her attorney to several news outlets to watch and report upon.

There won't be an investigation. IMO

 

[Seattle1]

The video - with 'likely software issues' - was shown by the family's lawsuit attorney to US reporters as early as Tuesday Nov 26th.
The video - without 'likely software issues' - was posted by PR TV three weeks later on Tuesday Dec 17th.
IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #5



“The video shown to us was not in real time,” correspondent David Begnaud said. The family attorney “says the video that he showed us was the same format he received from prosecutors,” Begnaud added.

Noting a discrepancy in how long Anello was holding Chloe, Begnaud said, “the grandfather actually looks out the window for about eight seconds. He reaches down, he picks Chloe up, and he holds her over the railing for nearly 25 seconds.”

In a statement to CBS News, Winkleman said, “any variation in time likely has to do with software issues.

‘It’s like the glass disappeared’: Grandfather cries as he recounts toddler falling to her death from a cruise ship

Thanks @SouthAussie -- I've not seen the leaked surveillance video and no plans to do so but appreciate your courtesy response to my question about an out of the blue alleged software edit post directed at my addition of an unrelated MSN article.

 

[SaucyWalker]

Perhaps this question has been asked here already and, if so, I apologize for not going back and reading every post.
Will the company or companies that designed and/or manufactured the windows be brought into the suit as co-defendant(s)?
Thank you.

 

[they'll get you]

Then perhaps the Wiegands attorney should have kept it to himself.
You don't show something to the media that you don't want leaked.

Telephone
Telegram
Tell-a-journo

That’s their job

 

[MassGuy]

Perhaps this question has been asked here already and, if so, I apologize for not going back and reading every post.
Will the company or companies that designed and/or manufactured the windows be brought into the suit as co-defendant(s)?
Thank you.

Serious answer: I highly doubt it, as those windows would have been designed to the cruise line’s specifications.

Facetious answer: I sure hope so, as the more ridiculous a lawsuit, the more entertaining it is.

Because as well all know, everyone wants to go on a cruise where windows don’t open, and the fresh ocean breeze has to be imagined. It’s too risky to allow people to use basic common sense, and expect them not to balance their children on a ledge where they can easily fall to their deaths.

Or something...

It’s all good though, because after a few days of blaming himself, grandpa has now absolved himself of all responsibility, and placed the blame squarely where it belongs—on the cruise line.

And that’s what bothers me the most. He believes he did nothing wrong.

 

[they'll get you]

Serious answer: I highly doubt it, as those windows would have been designed to the cruise line’s specifications.

Facetious answer: I sure hope so, as the more ridiculous a lawsuit, the more entertaining it is.

Because as well all know, everyone wants to go on a cruise where windows don’t open, and the fresh ocean breeze has to be imagined. It’s too risky to allow people to use basic common sense, and expect them not to balance their children on a ledge where they can easily fall to their deaths.

Or something...

It’s all good though, because after a few days of blaming himself, grandpa has now absolved himself of all responsibility, and placed the blame squarely where it belongs—on the cruise line.

And that’s what bothers me the most. He believes he did nothing wrong.

The new design might look something like this?

 

[crhedBngr]

Serious answer: I highly doubt it, as those windows would have been designed to the cruise line’s specifications.

Facetious answer: I sure hope so, as the more ridiculous a lawsuit, the more entertaining it is.

Because as well all know, everyone wants to go on a cruise where windows don’t open, and the fresh ocean breeze has to be imagined. It’s too risky to allow people to use basic common sense, and expect them not to balance their children on a ledge where they can easily fall to their deaths.

Or something...

It’s all good though, because after a few days of blaming himself, grandpa has now absolved himself of all responsibility, and placed the blame squarely where it belongs—on the cruise line.

And that’s what bothers me the most. He believes he did nothing wrong.

RBBM

Unfortunately, I strongly suspect, due to this lawsuit, increased costs of cruising will be passed onto future passengers. And, unfortunately, windows in common areas, such as play areas, may be sealed shut.

JMVHO.

 

[crhedBngr]

View attachment 223070
The new design might look something like this?

LOL!

A much-needed laugh, after wading through all of the posts about color-blindness . . .

 

[MassGuy]

RBBM

Unfortunately, I strongly suspect, due to this lawsuit, increased costs of cruising will be passed onto future passengers. And, unfortunately, windows in common areas, such as play areas, may be sealed shut.

I'm not a lawyer, but I think this may go to arbitration and be settled that way.

JMVHO.

No matter the outcome, we’re talking about pocket change here. Last year Royal Caribbean netted $1.8 Billion.

I’m hoping they don’t settle, and RC fights this in court. Win or lose, I can’t imagine that this will have any impact on their operations.

Maybe they’ll put up a sign though, with a picture of grandpa. “Don’t be like this guy.”

The only thing I hate more than frivolous lawsuits, is people actually winning them.

Royal Caribbean Reports 2018 Full Year and Q4 Earnings

 

[crhedBngr]

No matter the outcome, we’re talking about pocket change here. Last year Royal Caribbean netted $1.8 Billion.

I’m hoping they don’t settle, and RC fights this in court. Win or lose, I can’t imagine that this will have any impact on their operations.

Maybe they’ll put up a sign though, with a picture of grandpa. “Don’t be like this guy.”

The only thing I hate more than frivolous lawsuits, is people actually winning them.

Royal Caribbean Reports 2018 Full Year and Q4 Earnings

True, true.

ETA: The number of people going on a cruise has almost doubled from 2009 to 2019. See Page 18 of the below-linked article.

https://cruising.org/news-and-research/-/media/CLIA/Research/CLIA-2019-State-of-the-Industry.pdf

 

[they'll get you]

Freedom of the Seas has had her share of bad luck.

Three Year Anniversary - Freedom of the Seas Fire | Cruise Law News


freedom of the seas fire

 

[jeena]

View attachment 223070
The new design might look something like this?

Does that boat transport prisoners so they can't access the windows to attempt a water escape? It reminds me of a prison.

Anyway, because the newer ships have windows that open only 4 inches, doesn't that suggest the fully open windows on the older ships are a safety hazard, an accident waiting to happen, therefore the new modification is being implemented? This is what Winks is implying, so how does RCCL defend themselves against that fact? I can understand the courts putting partial blame on RCCL for CW's death for that reason, even though SA breached the railing. If the FOS window opened four inches only, chances are CW wouldn't be dead, just maybe injured.
What if a child climbed on one of those chairs or tables in the bar area, then went onto the railing and fell overboard?

I wonder if we will ever get to a point in time when a driver will be jailed for causing a death which could have been avoided if his old car was equipped with a rear view camera and all the other safety features on the new cars?

 

[Kindred]

SA isn't a citizen of Puerto Rico but he does have the right to a fair trial and evidence which hasn't had the chain of custody violated by the prosecutor.

JMO

BBM, snipped for brevity

No offense, but you need to stop making uncorroborated allegations about something you don't know anything about. There is absolutely no evidence that the chain of custody has been violated, and the way you keep throwing that word around has made it clear you don't actually understand what chain of custody is or how evidentiary recordings are handled.

Chain of custody (CoC), in legal contexts, is the chronological documentation or paper trail that records the sequence of custody, control, transfer, analysis, and disposition of physical or electronic evidence. When it comes to things like murder weapons or bloody gloves this is able to, and should be documented fully at all times, who has what times for what times, and if possible what purposes. This is easy, because there is only one item that can only exist in one place at any given time. It goes out to a lab, it comes back in. Defense attorney brings an expert to examine a fire arm, who and times are documented until it goes back into the locker.

It DOES NOT work the same way for digital recordings. For one thing, PR LE WAS NOT, AND NEVER IS, GIVEN THE ONLY VIDEO IN EXISTENCE. They were given A DVD COPY while RCCL retains the original. The person involved in making the copy for RCCL is documented and will be called in as an evidentiary witness during the trial to attest that yes, I made this recording that was turned over. Yes, this version presented before the court is true and accurate to the best of my knowledge. When the defense gets the video in discovery they are not led into a room and only get to watch it on a monitor while the DA keeps it, an official copy is burned and turned over to the defense WHICH THE DA AND LE HAVE NO CONTROL OVER ONCE IT LEAVES THEIR OFFICE. IT DOESN'T COME BACK. The defense can do whatever they want with it, which clearly they made another copy and gave it to Winkleman (who up until then was not entitled to discovery because he is not involved with the criminal case and the civil case HAD NOT BEEN FILED) who has taken it on a media tour.

If pressed the DA will likely have no problems producing records of what copies they have made and who they gave them too, but once those videos are out of there hands they are not responsible for what happens to them, the people who have those copies are. And we already know the defense has gone and made more copies for the family and that Winkleman has been flaunting his copy to the media. I am not one bit surprised that somehow the media got what looks like a crummy cell phone recording of a TV monitor knowing that and I find it hard to find any reason that the DA would have leaked this so again, please stop. You are entitled to your "opinion", but don't use legal terms you don't understand to try and make it sound like you have a point.

 

[Forever Young]

IF TRUE, that bolded portion seems very hypocritical and unethical.

How can they go on a national press tour, making aggressive accusations against the cruise line company if ,in fact ,they had not seen the video and did not see what really happened?

The Wiegands were not witnesses to the "accident", just as anyone else who has viewed the video cannot be considered "witnesses".

The Wiegands' press tour and lawsuit concerns the window design, not what Anello did. He has already admitted that he set Chloe on the railing, so they know that, without viewing the video.

MOO