IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #11

[akh]

It's possible the dumpsters were searched initially and then searched later to rule out the possibility a body had been hidden and then put in the dumpster after the initial search. And I don't think it's a stretch to think the dumpsters were not searched initially. At what point did police really take this seriously to the point of suspecting foul play?

Some of us here have speculated that JW's early concerns were jumping the gun. Did the police think the same thing or did they immediately suspect foul play? Unless there's something we don't know I'd think that at least to begin with they were more expecting to find a hungover college student who had been in a friend's (perhaps even a new friend's (think "hookup")) apartment. I've not really heard how seriously they took the search that afternoon or in the first few hours.

And you know what else... If someone doesn't ask they might prefer not to mention they didn't check nearby dumpsters or landfills immediately. At what point did they really think they needed to be looking for a body?

I agree with the person who said you'd think any searching of dumpsters or the landfill would be public knowledge just because people would see it and talk. I'd think if the police were searching the landfill soon after her disappearance it would've been the talk of the town even.

 

[mamamia54]

Is this the first PC? Dated June 7th-

http://www.theindychannel.com/video/28157482/index.html

To my knowledge that was the first one, I might be mistaken though.

 

[Glaucon]

Considering it's been 3 weeks and police are saying they are no closer than 3 weeks ago, and there has been no sign of her, no, I don't think it's naive.

I remember one of the earlier pressers where LE said the entire city limits had been searched. At that point they had hundreds of volunteers. I've since read many personal accounts (in MSM and comments) where locals have described getting dirty and going through every place they could think of. With that as my reasoning, I'm going to go ahead and say that the dumpsters were searched, probably repeatedly. If I'm LE, that's the first thing I think of. I'd be amazed if it's not in the "Missing Persons 101" procedure followed by every LE across the country.

But just in case, we should definitely email in a tip to LE telling them to search the dumpsters.

 

[mamamia54]

I remember one of the earlier pressers where LE said the entire city limits had been searched. At that point they had hundreds of volunteers. I've since read many personal accounts (in MSM and comments) where locals have described getting dirty and going through every place they could think of. With that as my reasoning, I'm going to go ahead and say that the dumpsters were searched, probably repeatedly. If I'm LE, that's the first thing I think of. I'd be amazed if it's not in the "Missing Persons 101" procedure followed by every LE across the country.

But just in case, we should definitely email in a tip to LE telling them to search the dumpsters.

About the only way they would be able to find anything of use now, would be with cadavar dogs taken to all the dumpsters.

 

[Jupiter812]

I was in a neighboring county yesterday, very rural but beautiful. On my drive back into town I kept shaking my head because there are so many forested areas, hills, ravines, barns, sheds, abandoned vehicles in people yards, etc. Everywhere I looked was a possible hiding place. Now I sort of understand how Charlene Spierer can see Lauren everywhere. And with that, I think I need to take a break for a while.

 

[eqh]

I remember one of the earlier pressers where LE said the entire city limits had been searched. At that point they had hundreds of volunteers. I've since read many personal accounts (in MSM and comments) where locals have described getting dirty and going through every place they could think of. With that as my reasoning, I'm going to go ahead and say that the dumpsters were searched, probably repeatedly. If I'm LE, that's the first thing I think of. I'd be amazed if it's not in the "Missing Persons 101" procedure followed by every LE across the country.

But just in case, we should definitely email in a tip to LE telling them to search the dumpsters.

Good work. My concern isn't that the dumpsters weren't searched -- but rather that she could have been in a truck and dumped in a landfill before they had anything to search for.

 

[docwho3]

I don't see any connection between these. Over a period of that many years,
there are bound to be missing women cases.

The Jill Behrman case is very, very different than this one. Not that the
outcome can't be the same, but in terms of the evidence and accounts
PD are sifting through, what they report, etc.

I don't think I ever said the cases were the same or 'connected'.

They do seem to be from the same general area. They were of roughly the
same size and scope as to LE effort. At least 2 of the cases were
about missing college students to begin with. FBI was involved in at least
2 of the cases. Polygraphs were used in at least 2 of the cases.

So in size and scope it appears the cases are roughly similar judging by
the online articles I have read.
So were early rumors and public announcements correct according to
the final case outcomes?

Were polygraphs proven to be reliable indicators? If not should we place
much faith in a LDT that seems to clear or indicate someone in this
current case?

How long did those past cases take to get resolved?

How long did it take to even find a body in those past cases
and could we be looking at similar times in this case?

I found it interesting to read how LE handled things and just to learn how
long things seemed to take.

I found those articles interesting for the reasons I just listed
and not because of believeing the cases were the same or 'connected'.

In the case you mentioned, it at first was released that LE thought it
was '. . .an accident that someone covered up. . .'
Yet early theory did not pan out.
Will early theory prove to be correct in this current case?
http://www.wthr.com/story/5486450/j...timeline?ClientType=Printable&redirected=true

The cases began as a missing person case.

Polygraphs were allegedly used in at least 2 of the cases & although
these seemed to lead in one direction in the a past case
the final case outcome was different.
(Makes me wonder about all the polygraph talk in this current case.
Will it prove to be accurate info in the end?)
In the past case it seems LDT results were not much help.

'. . .all were administered polygraph examinations,
and when asked if they had knowledge of Behrman's disappearance, the exam
indicated that Owings was not showing deception when she stated that she did.
Evans and Clouse were found to be showing deception when they answered the
same questions with negative answers. . . '
http://www.bloomingpedia.org/wiki/Jill_Behrman

The FBI has lent at least some assistance in this current case
and also did in at least one of the other cases linked.
Seems both that case and this one had decent LE effort.
'. . .More than 10 FBI agents and profilers joined in the investigation. . . .'
http://www2.indystar.com/library/factfiles/crime/missing/jill_behrman.html

At least 2 of these cases involved college students IIRC.

So in size and scope it appears the cases are roughly similar judging by
the online articles I have read.
So were early rumors and public announcements correct according to
the final case outcomes?

Were polygraphs proven to be reliable indicators? If not should we place
much faith in a LDT that seems to clear someone in this current case?

How long did those past cases take to get resolved?

How long did it take to even find a body in those past cases
and could we be looking at similar times in this case?

Some of what I took away from reading was:
LDT are possibly not always indicators of either guilt or innocence.

It can take a long time to find a body in that general area.

Early LE theories (at least those released to the public)
may not turn out to have anything to do with the final
case outcome.

In one of the past cases rumors had the victim running off to join a
religious cult and that too seems to have been incorrect.
That tends to make me be more cautious about the rumors
in this current case.

If none of that is of interest to you then that's fine.
We all notice different things when working a case.

I hope to use what I learned from those past cases to help
temper my reaction to the things I read about this current case
so for me it was something helpful in a general way and so I shared.

 

[WideOpen]

I was in a neighboring county yesterday, very rural but beautiful. On my drive back into town I kept shaking my head because there are so many forested areas, hills, ravines, barns, sheds, abandoned vehicles in people yards, etc. Everywhere I looked was a possible hiding place. Now I sort of understand how Charlene Spierer can see Lauren everywhere. And with that, I think I need to take a break for a while.

Thank you for this genuine post. You expressed what I have felt before in other cases I have followed. The veteran sleuth's here understand. Sometimes we just have to detox from these horrid realities. The suffering the parents must feel, how sad.
jmo

 

[Jupiter812]

I hope to use what I learned from those past cases to help
temper my reaction to the things I read about this current case
so for me it was something helpful in a general way and so I shared.

I like this very much, docwho3. I think I need to "temper my reaction" too. Thank you and I apologize for my snippy-ness.:innocent:

 

[coltsgal]

Is it possible that BPD just doesn't have the knowledge of how to handle such a situation, and could have missed something very early on?

I know they called in the FBI, but I'm not sure how long that took. I'm just wondering if they should have called in more experienced LEO's from the get-go.

 

[SmoothOperator]

Some thoughts specifically on the searching of the dumpsters and landfills.. What concerns me is that I am seei g confirmation of folks involved in volunteer searches(thanks Knox and mamamia for digging up those quotes and links)and am grateful that there has been such a great turnout of volunteer searchers for Lauren.. But I feel as tho this type of searching is not what is needed when talking specifically of these dumpsters and landfills..

Why? Because volunteer searchers and even the naked eye of some LE searching would not be able to find or hit on extremely important evidence such as human remains, and human decomp evidence, etc that only those specially trained in this specific area are the cadaver dogs..

An example of what I am getting at is like in the Haleigh Cummings investigation very early on when the cadaver dogs were brought in to search the home, neighborhood, surrounding woods, and dumpsters more than 1 cadaver dog hit on the dumpster that was used by several of the main players of that case.. Unfortunately Haleigh's body remains unfound but many of us believe it is quite possible that initially, immediately after her death she was temporarily put into this dumpster.. And when it was seen very quickly that this case was going to be thoroughly investigated that just within mere hours that the perps then moved Haleigh's remains to another location(and obviously a pretty damn good spot as she remains unfound).. So the dogs did indeed make a positive and accurate hit on that dumpster as even in an extreme small amt of time that the remains were in the dumpster left more than enough of the human decomp scent available for these cadaver dogs to hit on..

So think about if a volunteer group of searchers searched that particular dumpster.. The human eye, nor the human nose would have in any way picked up these scents that this highly trained dog can so easily detect.. Therefor had the cadaver dogs not been brought in it would have never been known that infact that dumpster by all appearances appeared to hold no evidence whatsoever but truthfully with the correct type of trained dog it would show that it indeed held evidence that human remains were at some point in contact with that particular dumpster..

I hope that was explained clearly enough that it made sense what I'm trying to exain about the dire of importance it is to bring in these trained dogs and not rely on just human eye a nose to detect whether the dumpster or landfill hold any evidence..

IMO it is imperative these dumpsters and landfills are searched with the cadaver dogs.. Even LE in CCity Texas that have known to be lacking.. Even they used the cadaver dogs IN EVERY SINGLE LANDFILL SEARCH!!

 

[Knox]

Putting this here for future reference-

Until recently, much of the solid waste generated locally was taken to the Monroe County Landfill, which is operated by the MCSWMD. However, the Landfill suspended operations during the summer of 2004, and has subsequently closed 12. Currently, the majority of our solid waste is hauled to Sycamore Ridge Landfill, located in Pimento, IN (Vigo County), about 55 miles from Bloomington 13.
http://bloomington.in.gov/documents/viewDocument.php?document_id=2998

http://bloomington.in.gov/documents/viewDocument.php?document_id=115
Search tool for trash collection days/services.

 

[SmoothOperator]

Coltsgal I agree and have similar questions myself.. Another possibility is this.. Just because we have it reported that FBI is involved in the case that could be 1 field agent brought in to help with say interviewing key players of the case.. It doesn't necessarily mean what we all hope that it means when we hear "FBI involved!".. it is very common for even just 1 agent to be lent to the LEA heading up the investigation and for that agent to help in just one specific area of the case(as I said for example to aid in the interview process).. So when it is reported that FBI is now involved in a case, from experience I now realize that could mean an entire very large and wide spectrum of areas that the FBI could be assisting in.. Not that the FBI is now involved to such a degree that they are over seeing the entire investigation but rather may only be 1 or maybe 2 agents very temporarily offering their services in a very specific aspect of the investigation..FWIW..

 

[bessie]

A new article notes the contrast between the efforts to find Lauren and the relatively low profile case of Crystal Grubb, another IU coed who went missing after partying with friends in September 18, 2010. Her body was found two weeks later, and her murder remains unsolved.

"Four blocks of geography between them, but two different worlds," (Monroe County detective) Swain said.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/06/2...ana-student-on-find-lauren-day/#ixzz1QKYwp3et
​

 

[TonyGatto]

Tony G. are you able to find out if dumpsters were searched and when? Do you have a contact?
I could swear I read that they were, but cannot find proof of it.

This is just not an area I'm interested in...so I've passed over much of the discussion. Just like everything else the answers from the police come at news briefings only and the answers are confusing. Yes we have checked dumpsters. That's the level of detail you get. Useless information for me. Same with the construction site. Murky answers.

Maybe a local who was in town can answer weather there were any POLICE searches downtown -- cause I never saw the cops downtown, never saw anything sealed-off, etc, though I got here 6 after LS went missing. May be cause tcops know they're not going to find anything there -- from the information they have.

Question for someone familiar with where the police searches are taking place. Have they been searching in particular area, as if to follow a route? Are they searching north but not south, that kind of thing.

 

[jennyb629]

*snipped*A rumor is often nothing more than a fresh idea, anyway. So when you hear a rumor, unless it's scurrilous or inflammatory, you can always post it by saying, "Suppose...".

I'm not sure if it's been said before here...but suppose that the person(s) who got into the altercation with CR at Smallwood did so over a drug-related/money-related matter and it had nothing to do with LS except that she was with CR. Perhaps either the guy(s) who actually punched him had previously been at Kilroys or out and about anyway and had seen CR and LS heading to Smallwood, followed, attacked them and CR was freaked out by the whole thing (because he owed them $$ or ?) and that is why he and LS left right away (I agree, still seems strange they wouldn't visit her apt first) but going along with this, suppose that the guys who punched CR did follow CR and LS back to CR's place and then waited for them to come back out later...CR never came out but LS did and they confronted her about the drug/$$ issue and it got ugly from there. I know this sounds like a long shot but it's something I have picked up from poking around some threads (it's OK to say that, right?). This would explain why JW may not have been notified about the fight. These guys who attacked CR may have been in JW's frat but been several years younger and not really known him well enough to call him about his gf being spotted out w/ someone else...it's possible even if they were in the same frat they weren't close enough to share that kind of thing anyway (it's possible they had rarely even spoken, because as we have heard on here before JW and JR were also in the same frat but were not really friends).

Anyway, I know it sounds crazy that this guy(s) would hurt LS, who presumably had nothing to do w/ whatever drug/$$ could have been going on but I also think it's possible, given all the conditions she could have been under and how out of it she could have already been that just a simple confrontation/her getting scared/nervous/shocked could have been enough to hurt her. Then these guys (who still inexplicably have not been listed in MSM as far as I have seen) could deflect a lot of the blame from themselves since they are not close to others in the case and possibly didn't even know LS at all. Going along with all of this...maybe JR was involved in some drug thing with the guy(s) who punched CR as well and he was somehow forced/tricked into making up his part of the story to cover for them if they are all involved in drugs somehow.

I really have no idea how credible any of this is...it is just another theory. If I have said anything that should not be included in this discussion, I truly apologize and will gladly remove it...I just thought some of this was too interesting (however hard to believe) not to share but I admit, even after reading the TOS and postings by mods I'm still not sure exactly what's OK to post and what's not. Again, sorry if I violated any rules I'm not trying to 'bait' or anything just sharing a rumor I've seen but don't know anything about the validity of it of course and expanded it to include a little of my own speculation about it...

 

[StrayKat]

I remember reading that the dumpsters were dumped on Friday mornings. At the construction sites as well. That is not good, IMO... she hadn't even been reported yet.

 

[Knox]

I remember reading that the dumpsters were dumped on Friday mornings. At the construction sites as well. That is not good, IMO... she hadn't even been reported yet.

Putting this here for future reference-
http://bloomington.in.gov/documents/viewDocument.php?document_id=115
Search tool for trash collection days/services.

Until recently, much of the solid waste generated locally was taken to the Monroe County Landfill, which is operated by the MCSWMD. However, the Landfill suspended operations during the summer of 2004, and has subsequently closed 12. Currently, the majority of our solid waste is hauled to Sycamore Ridge Landfill, located in Pimento, IN (Vigo County), about 55 miles from Bloomington 13.

 

[cluciano63]

There are so many other places LS could be...whoever did this might think a dumpster was too close and too obvious or it never even occurred to them. The only idea in their mind may have been to get her far, far away from where she died. That is what makes it so hard...she could be anywhere. If LE knows trash was picked up before they had a chance to stop it, they may have to do the landfill search at some point, but maybe nothing leads them there any more than it leads them anyplace else right now...

 

[Long-time Local]

A couple things I would like to address:
Dogs: I have been on several searches with dogs present. There have been bloodhounds as well as other scent hounds involved in these searches. Some are with professional organizations, some are privately owned (personal hunting dogs). This afternoon, I passed people outside of McNutt preparing to take beagles out to search.

Dumpsters: There were people crawling into dumpsters looking for Lauren by Saturday afternoon (June 4). I have crawled into several myself.

TES: TES is not the only professional search and rescue group working here, but they are perhaps the most visible. Dave Rader from S.T.A.R.R. has been a formidable presence in McNutt this past week, and there are other whose names are escaping me at the moment (it was "Find Lauren Day" and we covered one end of the county to another. I'm a bit exhausted).

What happened?: Lots of good discussion with searchers from all over today about what we thought might have happened. The most amusing comment I heard came from a petite blonde who looked a lot like Lauren. She said, "I think we need to get her friends together in a room and start cutting off fingers." An awful lot of searchers had a good chuckle before agreeing. We're not giving up.
(Mods, apologies if my comments from a searcher's p.o.v. aren't helpful. Feel free to tell me to shut up)