IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #30

[Dixie811]

I think he was curious and checking out whether or not his neighbor saw or heard anything...at all.

Good point, I think I get what you mean.

What Abbey said about the fact that Chris Malone seemed to think CR's behavior was odd at the time is a good point and I agree... if he had found the incident to be completely normal in context, then I would be inclined to dismiss it entirely. We should also consider the writer/reporter's bias in the way the article was written, of course.

You are right, Abbey, that there appeared to be a pretty non-existant line of other students & acquaintances jumping forward to defend JR (HT aside). I find it interesting that the individual from PT you mentioned (I was never on there) did not regard JR as being very intelligent, as we often regard JR as the "mastermind" of this crime.

:waitasec:

Two of the other cases I have been following resulted in bodies being found today. I pray everyday for Lauren's family to have closure.

 

[Ros]

Maybe he was just trying to get the story out there that he was "put to bed" and didn't remember anything in response to (or in anticipation of) people looking for Lauren. They seem to have mentioned this to a few different neighbors early on.

It's true that it's hard to read these comments without more context. But I think the reactions of other people are telling. It doesn't sound like they came across as totally normal or convincing to those around them either.

If you heard that friends or neighbors were the last people seen with a missing girl, wouldn't you probably believe and defend them if they said they had nothing to do with it? This didn't seem to be the overwhelming reaction to the guys at 5 N in the days following Lauren's disappearance. Their stories were publicly questioned by people who knew them on FB and there were reports about an angry confrontation at 5 N. And at this point, the only thing people had to go on was rumors.

The witness statements also seem a little skeptical. The guy who told the story about CR looking for a little blonde girl, adds:



The friend who ran into them at CVS, tells the story that MB told him, and as context, describes CR and MB's relationship as:



On PT, the reaction to JR was similar. "Ray" described the odd and uncaring way that JR told his roommates about the situation, telling them that police had come to the apartment and stressing that "it wasn't his fault". He also described JR as a liar with "no soul". To be fair, I believe he said he didn't think JR could be responsible for Lauren's disappearance, and there were others who agreed, but even then, the main objection, IIRC, wasn't that JR was incapable of a heinous crime, but that he was "too stupid."

I think the only person who really defended the POI was HT, when she told JR's story to the media and said she believed him. And all that did was convince most people that HT was lying or in on the coverup...

All this to say that I don't think we're reading too much into it and that these stories sounded totally legit at he time. They always sounded awkward and strange, IMO.

Over time, the quotes on PT by "Ray" (friend of JR's roommates) and jslicht13 (went to camp with JR) have gotten confused.

"Ray" described JR as having "no soul."

jslicht described JR as a "great liar" and "dumb, very dumb." Jun 21, 2011 09:49 PM

Both described Jay as incapable of doing anything heinous and getting away with it.

 

[Ixchel13]

Ixchel, I'm more interested -- and I think a few others are too -- in a link that can vouch for the veracity of what this Kilroys employee said. Just because this was discussed before doesn't make it true or less open to challenge.

you basically said it all when you said it has been discussed but it doesn't make it true.

Mainly because everyone is basing how high Lauren really was, not drunk, but high on drugs, by gossip and hearsay. Some of that gossip and hearsay was
reported and repeated both in MSM such as lohud and in Gattos column, on facebook, on PT and here.

For instance, how did we find out she was asked to leave if not from a kilroy's employee? But right when people started zeroing in for names and
confirmation of these kilroy's witnesses, they closed. Not before these
rumors became talked about as facts.

I for one would love to find out who these people from Kilroy's are too.
If it is in fact rumor and innuendos, then I can repeat what was being said, and say I don't think it's true,without having to prove who said it because I don't see that happening without a court order forcing Kilroy's to produce this employee who heard Lauren say she was on multiple drugs.

Afterall, it worked, didn't it? Alot of people think she was on multiple drugs with no proof of that besides what emanated from Kilroys.

plus I have to go someplace but when I get back tonite I'm going to dust off some links and post them. Until then, if anyone has them please feel free to help me out.

 

[Ixchel13]

Over time, the quotes on PT by "Ray" (friend of JR's roommates) and jslicht13 (went to camp with JR) have gotten confused.

"Ray" described JR as having "no soul."

jslicht described JR as a "great liar" and "dumb, very dumb." Jun 21, 2011 09:49 PM

Both described Jay as incapable of doing anything heinous and getting away with it.

This Ray guy was "Ray Anastasio" a pun on the name Trey Anastasio, frontman for Phish. PT is a Phish message board, among other things.
JW's sister's boyfriend was a friend of Trey Anastasio, hence the connection on PT.
Lauren was viciously attacked on PT. I've never seen such a vulgar display of victim blaming, ever. JW's roommate was posting on there too. People
who knew JW would defend him there, but never stood up for Lauren. It
was like, see what that woman did to poor Jesse.

 

[Hillside]

jslicht described JR as a "great liar" and "dumb, very dumb." Jun 21, 2011 09:49 PM.

Some of these quotes lose context with time. Jslicht follows up Jun 21, 2011 10:31 PM by posting a link to a video to elaborate on what he means by "dumb." [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u_YjK9r3vU"]jason-city walk - YouTube[/ame]

Bungling, immature...that kind of dumb.

 

[Kadence]

I don't know if I'm allowed to do this and I certainly don't mean to take away from Lauren's thread but, if any of you have any time, would you mind taking a look at this case on WS:

[ame="http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16839"]SPOTLIGHT CASE WA - Richard "Cody" Haynes Jr., 11, Kittitas, 12 Sept 2004 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

Cody is a Spotlight Case but doesn't seem to be getting the "attention", for lack of a better word. If you take a look, you'll understand why I asked, it's so sad

TIA!

 

[AbbeyR]

Some of these quotes lose context with time. Jslicht follows up Jun 21, 2011 10:31 PM by posting a link to a video to elaborate on what he means by "dumb." jason-city walk - YouTube

Bungling, immature...that kind of dumb.

They all backtracked though once they realized that PT was becoming a source of news and they were easily identifiable.

 

[imkeylime]

I think he was curious and checking out whether or not his neighbor saw or heard anything...at all.

This is an interesting theory, IMO. So it could have been a fishing expedition of sorts, though CR would have opened himself to scrutiny if "fishing" before LS was officially declared missing. That said, it's a pretty open-ended comment, without parameters, i.e., it doesn't specify when (that morning, the night before, etc.)

I personally think he made the comment on Sat., June 4. I can only base that on the "4," but February 4 misrepresenting June 3 seems too random of an error, IMO.

 

[akh]

It is my personal opinion that it is strange for CR to have been asking about Lauren when, according to the story of the POI's, there would be no reason to believe she did not arrive home in the early hours of June 3rd after leaving JR's on foot. I'm not sure why CR would think she would still be lingering nearby (drunk and barefoot?) that morning.

However, there is definitely some confusion about when exactly this exchange took place, as the original article stated an incorrect date. Although the date is extremely wrong (February 4), excluding the date, I got the impression that this event happened "the next morning" as in June 3rd, technically still the same calendar date as 4:15AM June 3rd when Lauren supposedly walked away. Could have been June 4, which would not make this incident as strange (IMO).

It's just my own opinion.

It's confusing... Personally I'm inclined to believe that the 'next' morning would be the following day. I'd frame anything June 3rd as 'that' morning or 'later that morning'.

 

[VeryVeritas]

The query at the CVS re: blonde girl missing has always bugged me. If JR saw her round the corner, then the 5N boys would assume she walked home. They knew she was without ph, so calling her in am and not getting answer would be normal. How many messages or attempts to contact her roomate or DR or other players of the evening were made. Asking someone at CVS only hrs after she walked is so out of the norm. Bugs me. Did any of them find a way to determine that she was not at JWs?

This is the sort of thing that would be ferreted out by good police work.
It would make sense that JR would try calling LS's apartment to make sure she made it (since he was so lazy not to walk the 2 blocks with her - not that I think for a moment she walked anywhere after 3:00am) The point is that this if there were any truth to his story the natural extent of it would be that he would call to see that she made it. No such call appears to have been made.

Then... you have CR/MB and JR after being confronted about LS's disappearance... what calls were made? If they knew she were dead, there might be no calls to her, and few if any to attempt to locate her. Here JW was actively trying to find her, whilst those last with her didn't seem to do much at all. Knowing she was deceased and disposed, their behavior would go one way and if they truly thought she were alive, it would go another way. If no calls were made, looks to me like they knew she was deceased.

 

[Jupiter812]

Maybe he was just trying to get the story out there that he was "put to bed" and didn't remember anything in response to (or in anticipation of) people looking for Lauren. They seem to have mentioned this to a few different neighbors early on.

It's true that it's hard to read these comments without more context. But I think the reactions of other people are telling. It doesn't sound like they came across as totally normal or convincing to those around them either.

If you heard that friends or neighbors were the last people seen with a missing girl, wouldn't you probably believe and defend them if they said they had nothing to do with it? This didn't seem to be the overwhelming reaction to the guys at 5 N in the days following Lauren's disappearance. Their stories were publicly questioned by people who knew them on FB and there were reports about an angry confrontation at 5 N. And at this point, the only thing people had to go on was rumors.

The witness statements also seem a little skeptical. The guy who told the story about CR looking for a little blonde girl, adds:



The friend who ran into them at CVS, tells the story that MB told him, and as context, describes CR and MB's relationship as:



On PT, the reaction to JR was similar. "Ray" described the odd and uncaring way that JR told his roommates about the situation, telling them that police had come to the apartment and stressing that "it wasn't his fault". He also described JR as a liar with "no soul". To be fair, I believe he said he didn't think JR could be responsible for Lauren's disappearance, and there were others who agreed, but even then, the main objection, IIRC, wasn't that JR was incapable of a heinous crime, but that he was "too stupid."

I think the only person who really defended the POI was HT, when she told JR's story to the media and said she believed him. And all that did was convince most people that HT was lying or in on the coverup...

All this to say that I don't think we're reading too much into it and that these stories sounded totally legit at the time. They always sounded awkward and strange, IMO.

Can't believe I'm posting this early but such is life!

I don't disagree with any of the above. And yes, I formed my early opinion, in part, based on those comments you quoted. To me, the peer's comment about CR being "cocky" shores up with his behavior and comment of looking for a "blonde girl." The thing is it's believable to me that CR blacked out that night so his question the next morning isn't that wierd. He and his atty sure made a mistake IMO by labeling his condition "amnesia" when "blacked out" would have been more believable.

As for JR, while he certainly gave an awkward interview from his vehicle with FOX news that time, of the 5N bunch I'd say CR is the slow one and the guys posting on PT didn't know him well enough to comment.

Rhetorical question: Could any of the three cover up her death well enough to elude detection? Or could they only have knowledge of it -- partial or otherwise and are withholding it-- but did not play a direct role in her demise and removal.

 

[Jupiter812]

Some of these quotes lose context with time. Jslicht follows up Jun 21, 2011 10:31 PM by posting a link to a video to elaborate on what he means by "dumb." jason-city walk - YouTube

Bungling, immature...that kind of dumb.

This vid has always bothered me because he looks so young and it seems unfair to base an opinion. It's rather pitiful really. But to be objective, because he bends over to protect the child it also illustrates a caring side.

 

[Hillside]

This vid has always bothered me because he looks so young and it seems unfair to base an opinion. It's rather pitiful really. But to be objective, because he bends over to protect the child it also illustrates a caring side.

The video and PT comments reinforce to me the idea that JR is a schlemiel, completely capable of lying to LE, but incapable of orchestrating a disappearance.

 

[Jupiter812]

The video and PT comments reinforce to me the idea that JR is a schlemiel, completely capable of lying to LE, but incapable of orchestrating a disappearance.

What is it about the video that reinforces your opinion of his complete ability to lie to LE?

 

[Ixchel13]

This is the sort of thing that would be ferreted out by good police work.
It would make sense that JR would try calling LS's apartment to make sure she made it (since he was so lazy not to walk the 2 blocks with her - not that I think for a moment she walked anywhere after 3:00am) The point is that this if there were any truth to his story the natural extent of it would be that he would call to see that she made it. No such call appears to have been made.

Then... you have CR/MB and JR after being confronted about LS's disappearance... what calls were made? If they knew she were dead, there might be no calls to her, and few if any to attempt to locate her. Here JW was actively trying to find her, whilst those last with her didn't seem to do much at all. Knowing she was deceased and disposed, their behavior would go one way and if they truly thought she were alive, it would go another way. If no calls were made, looks to me like they knew she was deceased.

Guilt is definitely in the eye of the beholder in this case--fuelled by the missing pieces. We have accused the POIs because they looked for her and didn't look for her. We have thought JW was guilty/not guilty because he called her phone and also for simply going to bed. CR is guilty because he was looking for her, JW not guilty because he was. It makes crazy sense--If CR is guilty, he would have to wait til she was reported missing because he would need to pretend he didn't know; and if JW is guilty, he would need to look for her before she was reported missing to seem innocent.
Could it be a strategy by LE to name a few POIs,and not name the others? LE has stressed that no POIs have been cleared (DR was never really a POI),
and that there were 10 POIs.
A big if, but what if LE had named all of the POIs in the beginning? With the names would be scenarios as to why they were POIs. Are the unnamed POIs
somehow putting out propaganda through message boards such as PT? Or dare I ask it--here?
The anti-Lauren propaganda on PT had an organized feel to it. Weirdly, on PT, Lauren was attacked much more viciously than the 5N POIs. Over and over again,it was stated in the most hateful, spiteful, and utterly vulgar
ways that she got what she deserved. People defending Lauren decided through PMs to keep going despite the abuse of Lauren's name, because it seemed that we had people with vested interest in denigrating Lauren and it could be helpful to LE. Not sure if it did but that site made me lose faith
in mankind, that anyone could be so mean and depraved.

 

[Hillside]

What is it about the video that reinforces your opinion of his complete ability to lie to LE?

The associated comments, that JR is dumb and lies. The video reinforces to me that the type of dumbness that his associates are describing is a schlemiel, a bungler who tends to make a mess of things unintentionally, then lies to cover his bungling. Perhaps he didn't fully understand the position he would be put in by agreeing to say that he saw LS round the corner at 4:30. I perceive poor judgment, not malice. JMO

 

[Ros]

Guilt is definitely in the eye of the beholder in this case--fuelled by the missing pieces. We have accused the POIs because they looked for her and didn't look for her. We have thought JW was guilty/not guilty because he called her phone and also for simply going to bed. CR is guilty because he was looking for her, JW not guilty because he was. It makes crazy sense--If CR is guilty, he would have to wait til she was reported missing because he would need to pretend he didn't know; and if JW is guilty, he would need to look for her before she was reported missing to seem innocent.
Could it be a strategy by LE to name a few POIs,and not name the others? LE has stressed that no POIs have been cleared (DR was never really a POI),
and that there were 10 POIs.
A big if, but what if LE had named all of the POIs in the beginning? With the names would be scenarios as to why they were POIs. Are the unnamed POIs
somehow putting out propaganda through message boards such as PT? Or dare I ask it--here?
The anti-Lauren propaganda on PT had an organized feel to it. Weirdly, on PT, Lauren was attacked much more viciously than the 5N POIs. Over and over again,it was stated in the most hateful, spiteful, and utterly vulgar
ways that she got what she deserved. People defending Lauren decided through PMs to keep going despite the abuse of Lauren's name, because it seemed that we had people with vested interest in denigrating Lauren and it could be helpful to LE. Not sure if it did but that site made me lose faith
in mankind, that anyone could be so mean and depraved.

I know what you mean about the viciousness of some of the anti-LS posts on PT. I wasn't on the PM network that you mention, but I started wondering why there were such strong feelings from individuals who just seemed to want to have the case dropped. They seemed to be completely unfeeling towards any of LS's family members who might be reading the threads. And they seemed unaware that by continuing to post negative comments, that they were keeping the case alive and bringing suspicion on themselves. I have also wondered whether LE has tried to track the sources of the threats some persons (Mrs. G-S for example) have reported receiving and the sources of the negative posts on PT.

The opposite of love and caring is apathy, not hate. Hate implies emotional involvement.

 

[curioser]

This is the sort of thing that would be ferreted out by good police work.
It would make sense that JR would try calling LS's apartment to make sure she made it (since he was so lazy not to walk the 2 blocks with her - not that I think for a moment she walked anywhere after 3:00am) The point is that this if there were any truth to his story the natural extent of it would be that he would call to see that she made it. No such call appears to have been made.

Then... you have CR/MB and JR after being confronted about LS's disappearance... what calls were made? If they knew she were dead, there might be no calls to her, and few if any to attempt to locate her. Here JW was actively trying to find her, whilst those last with her didn't seem to do much at all. Knowing she was deceased and disposed, their behavior would go one way and if they truly thought she were alive, it would go another way. If no calls were made, looks to me like they knew she was deceased.

BBM. That just struck me as pretty important. While (whoever) might think to make their outward behavior (with others) believable, would they think to stage calls to her? Probably not.

 

[AbbeyR]

I have also wondered whether LE has tried to track the sources of the threats some persons (Mrs. G-S for example) have reported receiving and the sources of the negative posts on PT.

The opposite of love and caring is apathy, not hate. Hate implies emotional involvement.

Ditto. And very true about apathy.

 

[AbbeyR]

The associated comments, that JR is dumb and lies. The video reinforces to me that the type of dumbness that his associates are describing is a schlemiel, a bungler who tends to make a mess of things unintentionally, then lies to cover his bungling. Perhaps he didn't fully understand the position he would be put in by agreeing to say that he saw LS round the corner at 4:30. I perceive poor judgment, not malice. JMO

I love the word schlemiel.

I agree with your observations -- I think that the entire night was likely a series of poor judgments, not malice and that continued when JR, CR and MB decided to withhold information about what happened that night.

Unfortunately, I don't think that anyone had to be a criminal mastermind or full of malice to hide Lauren or keep quiet, so the personalities of the guys at 5 N don't reassure me that they are not responsible. If anything my feeling is that they are kids who haven't really ever taken responsibility for anything, are still under their parents' control and probably don't want to disappoint them. After watching JW's parents in action, I realized that even if any of them wanted to step up and take a different course of action, it would probably be hard to do. The POI all have people surrounding them whose main priority seems to be protecting them from any consequences.

[ETA: Didn't jslicht also say or imply that jay had been in trouble in the past and that his father probably anticipated that he would need legal help or something along those lines? I don't want to go back and read those threads again, maybe you or Ros know?]

Again, I look at DR in comparison. All he did was take a police poly, but it put him in a totally different light, IMO.