Which story are they sticking to? And how do we know this?
Did they take the LE polygraph police asked them to?
IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #30
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Which story are they sticking to? And how do we know this?
Did they take the LE polygraph police asked them to?
Hi all, long time follower, but I've only posted a few times.
It has long bothered me that JR let LS leave not only without any help, but without a phone, keys, wallet, or shoes. And it's always stuck with me that even when people are out of it, they seem very aware to not have many of those items, as if they're an extra limb. I've always thought there was the strong possibility that LS could have left 5N, and then doubled back when she realized she didn't have her things. Do the exterior doors of 5N require keys or a code?
Also, after re-reading media reports and posts, it seems like CR was pretty messed up too (though not as much as LS). Or, at least this is the picture he's always tried to paint. He tried to drop LS off at the apartment (house?) of those four girls after leaving SW. He puked coming up the stairs at 5N. If LS did double back, would he be in any state of mind to do...well...anything? I've always been the most suspicious of CR, and I think his "amnesia" is convenient, but wouldn't the guy just give up at some point? I'd really like some input on just how messed up people think he was.
As an aside, I do this CR had every intention of hooking up with LS at SW, but the altercation with ZO spooked him. Based on the video, does anyone know if LS followed him, or if he coaxed her? I suspect that ZO may have had easy access to contact JW-- maybe she was worried he'd be contacted and see her there, in that state, with another guy? I am in no way implicating JW, btw.
And what about JR? We know he had at least two non-student guests (I think one is rumored to be DB). If they stayed, what do they know? Were they passed out at this point? Did they have a vehicle? Did JR have access to it?
And finally, MB. Interesting how he is becoming more and more integral as time marches on. Once he dropped LS off with JR, did he go straight home? What did he do for the rest of the night? Now that his story has developed, I've become more interested in what HE was doing. Would it make sense if, instead of calling JR to get LS to dump her on him (he states she wanted to party), what if he was calling because she was in bad shape and knew she needed care? He noticed she had a black eye. Maybe he was separating her from CR because he was suspicious of CR's intentions? I'm just wondering out loud.
Did MB watch LS/JR make those phone calls, definitely? We know one was to DR (would make sense for both 1)getting into SW, and 2)calls about what may have gotten LS messed up). But--what if (and this is purely my imagination running wild)-- MB WASN'T there, and the second call was to him, after he's dumped LS on JR and then JR doesn't know what to do?
Just some musings. I've obviously had a lot of time to think about it, and thought someone might have information I haven't seen or read to fill in some of the gaps. I'm mostly speculating, but I can't imagine these guys would deviate any further than they had to in their story. I hope I don't offend anyone by stretching the story so far-- I am not necessarily implicating anyone, I just REALLY think that most of the pieces of the puzzle are in front of our faces (despite the fact that there are 10 PsOI).
Here's my working list of the PsOI (not because they're suspect, but because they'd have useful info):
JR
CR
MB
JW
DR
ZO
AB? (w/ ZO)
DB? (w/ JR)
other guest? (w/ JR)
...who else?
It has long bothered me that JR let LS leave not only without any help, but without a phone, keys, wallet, or shoes. And it's always stuck with me that even when people are out of it, they seem very aware to not have many of those items, as if they're an extra limb. I've always thought there was the strong possibility that LS could have left 5N, and then doubled back when she realized she didn't have her things. Do the exterior doors of 5N require keys or a code?
Also, after re-reading media reports and posts, it seems like CR was pretty messed up too (though not as much as LS). Or, at least this is the picture he's always tried to paint. He tried to drop LS off at the apartment (house?) of those four girls after leaving SW. He puked coming up the stairs at 5N. If LS did double back, would he be in any state of mind to do...well...anything? I've always been the most suspicious of CR, and I think his "amnesia" is convenient, but wouldn't the guy just give up at some point? I'd really like some input on just how messed up people think he was.
As an aside, I do this CR had every intention of hooking up with LS at SW, but the altercation with ZO spooked him. Based on the video, does anyone know if LS followed him, or if he coaxed her? I suspect that ZO may have had easy access to contact JW-- maybe she was worried he'd be contacted and see her there, in that state, with another guy? I am in no way implicating JW, btw.
And what about JR? We know he had at least two non-student guests (I think one is rumored to be DB). If they stayed, what do they know? Were they passed out at this point? Did they have a vehicle? Did JR have access to it?
And finally, MB. Interesting how he is becoming more and more integral as time marches on. Once he dropped LS off with JR, did he go straight home? What did he do for the rest of the night? Now that his story has developed, I've become more interested in what HE was doing. Would it make sense if, instead of calling JR to get LS to dump her on him (he states she wanted to party), what if he was calling because she was in bad shape and knew she needed care? He noticed she had a black eye. Maybe he was separating her from CR because he was suspicious of CR's intentions? I'm just wondering out loud.
Did MB watch LS/JR make those phone calls, definitely? We know one was to DR (would make sense for both 1)getting into SW, and 2)calls about what may have gotten LS messed up). But--what if (and this is purely my imagination running wild)-- MB WASN'T there, and the second call was to him, after he's dumped LS on JR and then JR doesn't know what to do?
Just some musings. I've obviously had a lot of time to think about it, and thought someone might have information I haven't seen or read to fill in some of the gaps. I'm mostly speculating, but I can't imagine these guys would deviate any further than they had to in their story. I hope I don't offend anyone by stretching the story so far-- I am not necessarily implicating anyone, I just REALLY think that most of the pieces of the puzzle are in front of our faces (despite the fact that there are 10 PsOI).
Here's my working list of the PsOI (not because they're suspect, but because they'd have useful info):
JR
CR
MB
JW
DR
ZO
AB? (w/ ZO)
DB? (w/ JR)
other guest? (w/ JR)
...who else?
You are correct. Snapfade made the post, based on information obtained directly or indirectly from someone in LE.
Here are other people who might have useful information or have some type of involvement:
HT, and perhaps other female friends of LS
a random abductor
friends and family of said random abductor
other people with ZO
other people at Smallwood
the witness who saw CR and LS together
AEPi members, past and present
Ixchel13
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[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_c-935Sal4&feature=player_embedded"]YouTube[/ame]
ok it's confusing because they totally redid Kilroys. You're looking at the front of Kilroy's bordering 8th St., a one-way to the right. Take a left there at 8th, go west, you'll pass the sand area, can't see it it's behind the building. and look up to the right and you'll see
SW ahead, across the St. on the corner of College and 8th.
So, really, the woman pedestrian was either a tiny bit north or right in front of SW, SW stretches all the way between 8th and 9th except for a little section to the north on College which of course is all torn up and fenced off.
If you trace Lauren's path with CR, instead of opening up out of the alley into the rocky field between 10th and College and 5N, you come up short in front of a 3 story building. There is no true crime area, everything has been changed.
but see how close Kilroy's is to SW--a block. especially when you enlarge the screen.
ok it's confusing because they totally redid Kilroys. You're looking at the front of Kilroy's bordering 8th St., a one-way to the right. Take a left there at 8th, go west, you'll pass the sand area, can't see it it's behind the building. and look up to the right and you'll see
SW ahead, across the St. on the corner of College and 8th.
So, really, the woman pedestrian was either a tiny bit north or right in front of SW, SW stretches all the way between 8th and 9th except for a little section to the north on College which of course is all torn up and fenced off.
If you trace Lauren's path with CR, instead of opening up out of the alley into the rocky field between 10th and College and 5N, you come up short in front of a 3 story building. There is no true crime area, everything has been changed.
but see how close Kilroy's is to SW--a block. especially when you enlarge the screen.
Great questions, Anthropos. I'm especially interested in the questions about MB.
Thanks Ros, I tried looking for that post but couldn't find it or remember the poster. Also, I'm curious about your thoughts on AEPi...
Thanks Ros, I tried looking for that post but couldn't find it or remember the poster. Also, I'm curious about your thoughts on AEPi...
So I am watching an episode of Beth Holloway's vanished that aired in 2011. At the beginning of this episode they did a "breaking" blurb about Lauren and her disappearance; a run-through of her timeline the night she went missing.
I was extremely frustrated by what I heard. The narrator states that at 4:30 AM Lauren is caught on a surveillance camera near 5N leaving the building, "presumably to head home".. while the narrator is saying this the still-shot of Lauren that has been used to publicize what she was wearing that night is shown. They seem to be suggesting that this still-shot is from video of her leaving 5N, when it is actually her leaving Smallwood approx. four hours earlier.
As far as I am aware there is absolutely zero camera footage that shows Lauren walking out of 5N early that morning.
GAH, basic details, people!
I was extremely frustrated by what I heard. The narrator states that at 4:30 AM Lauren is caught on a surveillance camera near 5N leaving the building, "presumably to head home".. while the narrator is saying this the still-shot of Lauren that has been used to publicize what she was wearing that night is shown. They seem to be suggesting that this still-shot is from video of her leaving 5N, when it is actually her leaving Smallwood approx. four hours earlier.
As far as I am aware there is absolutely zero camera footage that shows Lauren walking out of 5N early that morning.
GAH, basic details, people!
SeeingForThe1stTime
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The lawsuit papers state that LS was in an "incoherent, distressed and non-responsive state" at SW when ZO punched CR and that CR, instead of taking her home less than 100 yards away from her door but instead WAS OBSERVED "assisting LS away from SW and into an alleyway en route to 5N" and it goes on to state that LS was so intoxicated that she couldn't properly function and that CR WAS OBSERVED with LS slung over his back, carrying her toward 5N. Based on this I would say she was neither coaxed nor did she follow CR, she was simply physically taken by CR. I'm not sure LS was in any shape to be aware of her missing belongs much less to leave on her own and double back looking for them. The papers also state that when MB arrived home from JR's, CR and LS were already there. MB was concerned and asked LS to sleep on his couch, LS asked MB to take her home and it states that instead of taking her home he took her to JR's house and that is where he left her. He stayed at JR's unitl after the calls, then he went back home.
LS wanted to go home, she didn't ask MB about her phone or to help her find it, she asked him to take her home. I also think they were at SW because she asked CR to take her home, not to pick up any drugs. She at some point was aware enough to be worried for herself and coherent enough to ask CR to take her home. Why he didn't just take her the less than 100 yards to her door is a mystery, and had he done so, none of us would be here now. So, according to the lawsuit, contrary to what MB stated earlier, that she asked him to keep partying with her but rather she asked MB to take her home. That's twice if I'm right that she verbally asked someone to please take her home. In my opinion, MB has the answers, and even if it turns out she left on her own and it was a random, each one of those boys is in part responsible for her death.
Also, the link below says LS was CARRIED out of SW after CR was punched by ZO and also, re-states the severe state of intoxication LS appeared to be in.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/lauren-spierer-contradictory-stories-14138609
Only in that fraternity brothers have been known to confide in each other, assist each other, stand by each other etc. If one member of a fraternity was directly involved, others might be indirectly involved.
Ixchel13
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BBM and underlined. Even if many of us disagree on what scenario took place, this is always true no matter what.
HOWEVER, if Lauren came back to SW after Kilroy's, and was told by
-whomever- that she could not enter her own apt. with CR, then firstly, those people are to blame. It was Lauren's apt. just as much as her other roommates.
Did she go with CR because they wouldn't let her in with him?
It's amazing how this confrontation just will not be explained, and ZO looks like a hero of sorts. Yet he didn't look out for Lauren. Instead, he was being a , and at whose instigation? HT and JW? I am not buying ZO as a hero, more like an anti-hero. On PT they were saying he got busted and was a confidential informant.
One thing that frustrates me is the reason Lauren couldn't get in her own apt. If my roommate was intoxicated and involved in a violent altercation, I would be out in that hall retrieving her and arguing about her excesses later. The question is--was HT even home or was she at 10th and College or 5N?
HT had been partying it up with Lauren earlier just like the others. Did she also have a responsibility for Lauren's safety after she may have refused/caused her to be refused entry? I can see myself, inebriated, confronted, barred from my apt and watching my date(?) get assaulted because of being with me and then leaving with him, because I was mad/freaked out/confused as to why my friends were turning on me. People
keep saying that she was too intoxicated to feel anything, but she had to feel something, and that something could have been fear and confusion.
And if they did prevent her from entering her own apt., they did this
when she really couldn't defend herself. IMO probably so they could report back to JW and his gang how loyal they are to AEPI guys.
If the confrontation caused Lauren to proceed on to her disappearance, then yes, let's get everyone leading up to it as well as the 5N POIs. If she felt uneasy staying at SW after the confrontation, maybe it was because she
felt either betrayed or actually scared of confronting angry roommate or ZO and his gang. IOW, not feeling comfortable staying there definitely led her to her demise.
Lauren was over 18, age of consent. Friends of her boyfriend, and roommates, did not have a say about who she chose to go out with. And really, CR is not any worse, maybe even better, than the guys he was fighting with .Remember ZO was also banned from SW, so he shouldn't have been in there trying to "protect" anyone in the first place. Good enough reason right there to include him in the civil suit.
JW's parents describe a girl that their son had to constantly watch out for to keep her out of trouble. I see a girl with a controlling boyfriend who got her majorly high and drunk and then watched out for her. Is that any different than CR? His problem seemed to be not being able to stay sober enough, or maybe it was that he didn't have an entire posse backing him up like JW. Girlfriend on the prowl? No need to leave the playoff game, until it's over, of course--let the posse do the dirty work, get rid of the guy, and he would deal with her later.
Did Lauren leave because she felt outnumbered and headed for trouble
with JW and felt too messed up to handle that right then? That's what I think.
Cause and effect starts at the confrontation, IMO.
We don't really know the real reason LS couldn't or didn't get into her actual apartment though? I definitely agree with you though on a potential reason as to why LS and CR left SW....the whole confrontation/confusion/etc thing.
I'm pretty sure it was reported that HT was at their apartment in SW....but that doesn't mean she had any idea as to what was going on in the hallway or prevented LS from getting into their apartment. And in regards to HT partying earlier in the night, she and LS had wine in their apartment, but I'm quite sure she didn't leave SW with LS and DR?
Absolutely agree. IMO MB's knowledge/involvement is what links CR and JR's "stories" together, and he absolutely is the one to break.
Ixchel13
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yeah, just wine. That's just it--no one will admit what drugs they were imbibing, just that Lauren was imbibing. On PT, someone dragged up a facebook photo of another party== HT sticking out her tongue and there was a bar of Xanax
on it. In the background on the counter, you could see vodka, lemonade and shot glasses--to make lemon drops, a very strong and popular drink with these people. HT was pregaming with Lauren. Should we assume she had a couple glasses of wine?
On the contrary, I think we should assume that most of her friends were doing much the same as she was, maybe even providing some of it, and they are keeping quiet so they don't get tossed into the mess, and may I say just like they should be?
For example, what if ZO provided some of the drugs? I just can't figure out why Lauren's friends didn't weigh in about the confrontation and the only reason I can think of is that they have something to lose. I mean, they defended JW more than their "friend" Lauren!!! And they must have backed up ZO or else why wouldn't the police follow up and find out why she didn't stay, or have they?
Also, BTown at first just told us there was a woman pedestrian on tape around the time Lauren was supposedly walking home, and a small car.
When I expressed concern, he then added the location of the woman.Trying to get someone to notice that SW runs exactly between 8th and 9th. Did someone, at least 1 female, try to come after Lauren when/if she texted her phone? Or did they come to someone's aid concerning Lauren? I find it really hard to believe that Lauren was only associated with men after leaving SW. There had to be a woman around there somewhere, and they are IMO probably on the POI list starting with HT,
ZC and the woman pedestrian, and witness at 10th and College.
doubtingthomas
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In the beginning there were quite a few post about the dumpster behind 5N. Then they checked the landfill. There was constuction going on across the street from 5N at the time. Does anyone know if their dumpsters or dump trucks were checked? Seems to me they could have tossed her in and the workers begin to use it the next day. They wouldn't have any reason to check inside before using it. Would they have dumped at the same landfill?
Nope - 5N is just a row of six apts. They all have a separate front door that faces 11th St. I'm not even sure they have another entry/exit door.
I've wondered about the dumpsters/landfill too.
Didn't cadaver dogs pick up on something at the 5N dumpster? Or did tracking dogs lose her scent there? Or am I mis-remembering?
Did dogs ever pick up on Lauren's scent inside either of the 5N apts she was supposed to be in?
I know that the landfill was searched, but it wouldn't be the first time a body wasn't found at a landfill, even after it was supposed to be there (like Andrew Compton).
Ixchel13
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People were using dogs, but did LE make an official statement? Like the cell phone ping in Martinsville, no official info, but just like the other "confirmed rumors", it seems the tracking dog info came from unconfirmed sources close to either LE or friends of the dog trackers.
If LE had a confirmed cadaver scent inside anyone's apt., they would have
arrested someone. And apparently, these scents are nearly impossible to erase, and I don't see these guys as being able to make that go away.
IMO, if they had actually detected a cadaver scent at the dumpster, why wouldn't they report this immediately to the public? For example, when police use dogs to find drugs, they say that drug dogs were brought in and drugs were found by them.
It has been said that Blair Wallach's and MB's parents were in business together. She was asked if she knew CR and she said not really, but of course did not volunteer that she knew MB. If she knew MB, then perhaps
introduced him to HT? Has anyone asked MB whether he called anyone after returning to his apt. after the phone calls that JR/LS made at 4:15? Even if BW was out of town, MB could have called/texted someone at Lauren's apt. saying she was attempting to walk home. Actually, IMO, Lauren wouldn't have to 'double back' if MB attempted to reach someone else after he got back to his apt. And it could explain how she could in fact have met up with someone after leaving JR's without calling someone else.
There was a guy, wish I could remember his name, who said he saw someone in a small car and did he see a blonde girl in the car? Lots of people thought he was making it up, but what if this guy was the skateboarder that was also on the video that BTown viewed? Just saying that more stuff could have happened, if she did leave JR's, and that is where the other POIs come
in.
Ixchel13
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I don't want to be crass, or diss anyone who is a dog handler/trainer, but I know personally that people were looking for Lauren for the reward, and some of them were using dogs. Someone contacted me through PT, someone with military training, and they asked me
to show them a few places of interest that I had found by following a psychic's trail. (I know, I know). They had a dog. At first, I thought this was an unlikely dog but when I got home and googled it, apparently this type of dog is excellent for human scent.
I felt like I had been looked at by the FBI, but later we decided they might
have been looking for a reward.
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