IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #32

[AbbeyR]

We know from reports that LS left SW and went with DR to 5N. My questions is: has it ever been stated why she went with DR? Did she select DR because <Snipped for space>

Do we know that she asked DR to come along? Or did he ask her?

 

[doubtingthomas]

Do we know that she asked DR to come along? Or did he ask her?

I thought I read in one of the reports that stated LS walked down the hallway to a friends, which would be DR. Still trying to find the article. If DR had asked her to come along, why didn't he stay? Why would you ask someone to go to another persons apt, escort them there and then leave? But this is the question I am trying to find out.

 

[imkeylime]

I thought I read in one of the reports that stated LS walked down the hallway to a friends, which would be DR. Still trying to find the article. If DR had asked her to come along, why didn't he stay? Why would you ask someone to go to another persons apt, escort them there and then leave? But this is the question I am trying to find out.

The best answer I have is that he went with LS in order to pick something up or drop something off (something perhaps being something illegal?). Although it's also possible she just didn't want to walk alone. That doesn't seem as likely, though. JMO.

 

[bx2]

I thought I read in one of the reports that stated LS walked down the hallway to a friends, which would be DR. Still trying to find the article. If DR had asked her to come along, why didn't he stay? Why would you ask someone to go to another persons apt, escort them there and then leave? But this is the question I am trying to find out.

DR was friends with the 5N group too. I don't think it's as black and white as an explicit invitation or request for an escort. I think it's an open group invitation if anyone wanted to go up to the 5N party, DR is up for it, they arrive and shortly find out that the booze is about to run out, and the party is moving on to Sports, which he didn't want to partake in. Bored college kids will walk two blocks for little reason other than seeing whats going on.

 

[Jupiter812]

I thought I read in one of the reports that stated LS walked down the hallway to a friends, which would be DR. Still trying to find the article. If DR had asked her to come along, why didn't he stay? Why would you ask someone to go to another persons apt, escort them there and then leave? But this is the question I am trying to find out.

In addition to what BX2 said, this age group moves in packs and rarely goes anywhere, especially the young women, alone.

My own personal opinion, or story, if you will, is that CR let JR know of his designs on Lauren and asked JR to ask her to come over. And most any young woman in Lauren's group would feel more comfortable entering a guy's party with someone else. From what I recall, Lauren and DR were close and from pictures I've seen, he appeared rather protective of her.

 

[Jupiter812]

We know from reports that LS left SW and went with DR to 5N. My questions is: has it ever been stated why she went with DR? Did she select DR because:

He was the only male at SW that she knew at that time of the morning
She knew he had drugs with him and wanted some
She wanted someone to walk with her for security reasons
Combination of all three

We know LS had been to 5N prior with HT and the walk was only a few blocks away so she would have known the way. So why ask someone to walk with you. The fact that DR left and returned back to SW tells me she just wanted someone to walk with her.

So, if it was for security reasons then why would she opt for walking home from JR’s some 4 hours later without anyone? You might say she was not in the right frame of mind at that time, but JR claims she passed the walking test and she was using his phone to make calls. If she was in a frame of mind to do these things why walk home by yourself when you asked someone to walk with you 4 hours earlier?

I don't believe it was for security reasons and even if it was, the effect of drugs and alcohol consumed since leaving Smallwood would cancel out rational thinking four hours later.

 

[Jupiter812]

My take on the post with the panties is that the original commenter was being dramatic. I guarantee you that on any given day you could walk that neighborhood and find panties. I know the proprietor of a business downtown on the Bloomington square. In the alley nearby he always sees beer and liquor bottles, Rx bottles, panties, and occasionally even needles. He was clear it is student, not homeless, litter.

 

[Kadence]

My take on the post with the panties is that the original commenter was being dramatic. I guarantee you that on any given day you could walk that neighborhood and find panties. I know the proprietor of a business downtown on the Bloomington square. In the alley nearby he always sees beer and liquor bottles, Rx bottles, panties, and occasionally even needles. He was clear it is student, not homeless, litter.

Thank you for sharing this info Jupiter but it's very sad to read

I don't know what it will take for college students to not be so "fascinated" with booze, binge drinking is almost the norm! There's been talk about lowering the drinking age back to 18, based on the premise that the 21 age actually contributes to binge drinking. Does anyone think this would make a difference? I know it's a hot topic.

Take a look:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-debate-on-lowering-the-drinking-age/

 

[imkeylime]

Thank you for sharing this info Jupiter but it's very sad to read

I don't know what it will take for college students to not be so "fascinated" with booze, binge drinking is almost the norm! There's been talk about lowering the drinking age back to 18, based on the premise that the 21 age actually contributes to binge drinking. Does anyone think this would make a difference? I know it's a hot topic.

Take a look:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-debate-on-lowering-the-drinking-age/

IMO, there are two ways to look at it, based on what I see IRL. 1) Those in the 18-21 age may drink more just to be rebellious or kill time. And it's true that they can get their hands on it, with fake IDs or from 21-year-old or older friends. 2) Kids in the 16-17 age range drink, too, when they can get their hands on it. For them, that's usually from 21-year-old or older family members (or maybe friends). With the drinking age at 18 again, those 16- and 17-year-olds would have easier access, IMO. Also, they don't have dorm rooms or apartments to drink in. But they do have licenses and often cars.

That said, it seems like "binge drinking" happens more at the college level. If it wasn't so alluring, maybe it wouldn't be so excessive. My son didn't drink in HS but did drink his sophomore year of college (he didn't hide the fact). When he turned 21, the allure had diminished. He's says he's just not that interested. So I really don't know ...

Interestingly, I was 18 when the drinking age was raised from 18 to 21 in Michigan. I worked as a waitress at an Irish pub. It was weird how the clientele changed ... but kids did still find ways to drink.

 

[Ixchel13]

Wow. Interesting. Comments were pretty harsh on the Spierers. I get their point of view but the request was so vague that I'm not sure why some people are so upset.

This article included what the Spierers' attorney had to say:


http://www.lohud.com/viewart/201401...sing-IU-student-s-parents-want-lawsuit-sealed

I wonder if the Spierers do have additional evidence that hasn't panned out and is not sufficient for a criminal case? I wonder too if one of the nonparties is referring to DR and what DR & LS were up to earlier? DR is the one who came forward on his own, correct? I'm sure the Spierers want to protect their own daughter's image, but maybe they are also trying to protect those who have come forward with information voluntarily? Maybe whatever supposedly freaked JW out initially, or further information from ZO & co.?

I'm a little skeptical that it would be just that LS was involved in any drug activity because that rumor has been around such a long time anyway. JR has asserted he heard LS was taking something with DR and the whole claim predicates on the basis that LS was already intoxicated when CR & JR gave her more to drink, so I think it is safe to assume that CR & JR would bring it up as a defense anyway.

never heard that DR came forward on his own. He cooperated, but never made anything public, not even a good word for Lauren. What is missing from this case is any of her friends really outpouring their love for Lauren.
IMO, this shows how angry they are at her for "causing" their lives to be turned upside down. They were all on a runaway train but couldn't see that,
and they ALL had a first class ticket.

 

[Ixchel13]

We know from reports that LS left SW and went with DR to 5N. My questions is: has it ever been stated why she went with DR? Did she select DR because:

He was the only male at SW that she knew at that time of the morning
She knew he had drugs with him and wanted some
She wanted someone to walk with her for security reasons
Combination of all three

We know LS had been to 5N prior with HT and the walk was only a few blocks away so she would have known the way. So why ask someone to walk with you. The fact that DR left and returned back to SW tells me she just wanted someone to walk with her.

So, if it was for security reasons then why would she opt for walking home from JR’s some 4 hours later without anyone? You might say she was not in the right frame of mind at that time, but JR claims she passed the walking test and she was using his phone to make calls. If she was in a frame of mind to do these things why walk home by yourself when you asked someone to walk with you 4 hours earlier?

IMO, there are two ways to look at it, based on what I see IRL. 1) Those in the 18-21 age may drink more just to be rebellious or kill time. And it's true that they can get their hands on it, with fake IDs or from 21-year-old or older friends. 2) Kids in the 16-17 age range drink, too, when they can get their hands on it. For them, that's usually from 21-year-old or older family members (or maybe friends). With the drinking age at 18 again, those 16- and 17-year-olds would have easier access, IMO. Also, they don't have dorm rooms or apartments to drink in. But they do have licenses and often cars.

That said, it seems like "binge drinking" happens more at the college level. If it wasn't so alluring, maybe it wouldn't be so excessive. My son didn't drink in HS but did drink his sophomore year of college (he didn't hide the fact). When he turned 21, the allure had diminished. He's says he's just not that interested. So I really don't know ...

Interestingly, I was 18 when the drinking age was raised from 18 to 21 in Michigan. I worked as a waitress at an Irish pub. It was weird how the clientele changed ... but kids did still find ways to drink.

Want to comment on black-out or binge drinking and what people can do
under its influence. Unless you've experienced it, you won't think it's possible that someone could be so utterly incapacitated and still function.

When I was young and stupid, I mixed valium with white wine for the buzz, but occasionally, I would loose track and mix it with alcohol. Lots of valium,
not just two. Maybe 3 or 4 (5) mg. You lose track of how many. Mixed wioth the booze, the valium keeps you from just passing out. You could function for hours, until the valium starts to wear off. You could go here and there, talk to people, do all kinds of crazy things, but you won't remember a single thing.
This is the very thing that fascinates these students. They record everything for the person on their phones and show them the next day. Another thing the black out kids do is make phone calls and texts they don't remember and they love showing these to each other.

Unless you've experienced it first hand, and I don't recommend it BTW,
you wouldn't believe Lauren could leave JRs. But cops have all kinds of stories about just what these black out people are capable of. Even leaving crash sites that should have been fatal.

 

[imkeylime]

Want to comment on black-out or binge drinking and what people can do
under its influence. Unless you've experienced it, you won't think it's possible that someone could be so utterly incapacitated and still function.

When I was young and stupid, I mixed valium with white wine for the buzz, but occasionally, I would loose track and mix it with alcohol. Lots of valium,
not just two. Maybe 3 or 4 (5) mg. You lose track of how many. Mixed wioth the booze, the valium keeps you from just passing out. You could function for hours, until the valium starts to wear off. You could go here and there, talk to people, do all kinds of crazy things, but you won't remember a single thing.
This is the very thing that fascinates these students. They record everything for the person on their phones and show them the next day. Another thing the black out kids do is make phone calls and texts they don't remember and they love showing these to each other.

Unless you've experienced it first hand, and I don't recommend it BTW,
you wouldn't believe Lauren could leave JRs. But cops have all kinds of stories about just what these black out people are capable of. Even leaving crash sites that should have been fatal.

I hear you, Ixchel, and I'm glad you're here to tell your story. I had a friend whose mother took valium, and my friend would borrow some and drink. She wouldn't necessarily pass out, so I see your point.

IMO, one problem nowadays is that kids themselves can get prescriptions for today's versions of valium. Maybe that's one of the things we need to examine ... what's causing these kids to be prescribed these sedating drugs (and counteracting drugs like Adderall), which they can then share/sell. My daughter runs with a different crowd than my son did in HS. They're very smart kids, but some already have issues. IMO, the "honors" classes they're in cause some of the problems. Check out the video "Race to Nowhere" and you'll understand my thought. When the academic pressure is too great, some of these kids crumble. And they do party to release tension. It's so not good.

That said, I'm not sure if lowering the drinking age would help or hurt. I'm afraid it might cause the same problem at a lower age level. OTOH, what we're doing now really isn't working, either, so I think we need to examine any and all angles.

 

[Jupiter812]

Want to comment on black-out or binge drinking and what people can do
under its influence. Unless you've experienced it, you won't think it's possible that someone could be so utterly incapacitated and still function.

When I was young and stupid, I mixed valium with white wine for the buzz, but occasionally, I would loose track and mix it with alcohol. Lots of valium,
not just two. Maybe 3 or 4 (5) mg. You lose track of how many. Mixed wioth the booze, the valium keeps you from just passing out. You could function for hours, until the valium starts to wear off. You could go here and there, talk to people, do all kinds of crazy things, but you won't remember a single thing.
This is the very thing that fascinates these students. They record everything for the person on their phones and show them the next day. Another thing the black out kids do is make phone calls and texts they don't remember and they love showing these to each other.

Unless you've experienced it first hand, and I don't recommend it BTW,
you wouldn't believe Lauren could leave JRs. But cops have all kinds of stories about just what these black out people are capable of. Even leaving crash sites that should have been fatal.

Very good and sounds like an accurate, realistic depiction.

I'd like to add--and I am remiss for not mentioning it in my other post about Lauren ("4 hours later...") that I still believe it possible she was ruffied.

 

[Jupiter812]

I hear you, Ixchel, and I'm glad you're here to tell your story. I had a friend whose mother took valium, and my friend would borrow some and drink. She wouldn't necessarily pass out, so I see your point.

IMO, one problem nowadays is that kids themselves can get prescriptions for today's versions of valium. Maybe that's one of the things we need to examine ... what's causing these kids to be prescribed these sedating drugs (and counteracting drugs like Adderall), which they can then share/sell. My daughter runs with a different crowd than my son did in HS. They're very smart kids, but some already have issues. IMO, the "honors" classes they're in cause some of the problems. Check out the video "Race to Nowhere" and you'll understand my thought. When the academic pressure is too great, some of these kids crumble. And they do party to release tension. It's so not good.

That said, I'm not sure if lowering the drinking age would help or hurt. I'm afraid it might cause the same problem at a lower age level. OTOH, what we're doing now really isn't working, either, so I think we need to examine any and all angles.

Keylime, I've never heard of the video. I will endeavour to watch it. The title is so telling. :tyou:

 

[imkeylime]

Keylime, I've never heard of the video. I will endeavour to watch it. The title is so telling. :tyou:

It definitely depicts the potential dangers of pushing too hard. Here are a couple of quotes from an article about it:

&#8220;'Everyone expects us to be superheroes,'&#8221; one high school senior in the film says.

"Another tells of borrowing her friends&#8217; prescription for Adderall to juggle her many commitments. 'It&#8217;s hard to be the vice president of your class, play on the soccer team and do homework,' she says."

What seems relevant here, IMO, is the suggestion that Klonopin was involved that night and the reference about "Teddy" and Adderall. Are these kids getting these Rx drugs from friends or dealers (or both)? My daughter came home from school one day and asked me what Adderall was. A boy in her chem class had offered her some. This wasn't college. It was her sophomore year of HS. I was pretty shocked, you know?

Reading about binge drinking is scary enough ...

 

[VeryVeritas]

I've been thinking about this quote and what it means to have 'control or 'right of control' over a person...

For ex. what if this was a sexual assault case, and not a missing person case... Just hypothetically, imagine if, the morning of June 3rd, Lauren had woken up in CR's bed. The last thing she remembers is him buying her shots at Kilroys. She looks in the mirror and realizes she is covered in bruises and has black eyes. She gets home and... what? Her roommates would see her black eyes and be horrified. She would hear rumors from the night before from other people and find out that there were multiple witnesses who had seen this scene unfold -- That people had told Corey to bring her home, that there had been a fight, that he had taken her out of Smallwood, told people he was in control of the situation, and carried her back to his place.

What would have happened if she was scared/ angry/ confused about what happened the night before or if she suspected she could have been drugged and had gone to the police?

Around the same time Lauren disappeared, a student at IU was charged with sexual assault. Like this case, he was witnessed by several people bringing an intoxicated girl home. Also like this case, when people saw him dragging a girl down the street and asked if everything was okay and if the girl needed help, he answered for her and said "No, it's okay. I've got it".

He was charged with rape, sexual battery and criminal confinement. Eventually the rape charges were dropped in a plea deal, and he was sentenced to 5 years, is on the sexual offenders registry and was kicked out of IU. http://bl-ids-website.ads.iu.edu/news/story.aspx?id=80090

So, I keep thinking about this case for two reasons.

First, arguing that one didn't have 'control or the right of control' over a person implies that they had control over their own actions, doesn't it? In the Yu case, the key evidence for the assault and criminal confinement charges seems to be the witnesses and video that showed that the victim was too impaired to be in control of herself. This led to Yu's admission in his guilty plea:



This is a missing person case, not a sexual assault case, so obviously the issues are different. But if it can be established that Lauren was not physically/ mentally able to consent to being taken by CR to 5 N, I'm not sure how he can absolve himself of responsibility by claiming he had no control or 'right of control' over her a few minutes later.

Second, this case was in the news around the time of Lauren's disappearance. If you click on the IDS link, you'll see that it links up to several articles about the case. We've talked a lot about the 5 N guys fearing the consequences of their involvement with drugs if something happened to Lauren, but this case reminds me that the possibility of being charged with sexual assault could have been a real fear. Regardless of CR's intentions or what happened when they got back to 5 N, having a girl wake up in your apartment with no memory of what happened and black eyes could be really bad... especially if you knew there were witnesses who had called you out on acting aggressively/ inappropriately before you had carried her home.

Just thinking 'outloud'.... it's quiet in here!

This is truly strange. I just learned of a case first hand where a woman was raped while being passed out on alcohol and klonopin.

It's not that I hadn't thought sexual misconduct were a possibility... more that without a body or witnesses how could we know?

One of the things that led me to think that were unlikely was the fairly small amount of time between the Alley Fall and the 4:15 calls.

So after seeing how a person in a similar situation was treated by "friends" I could not help but think of this case and how it could have gone down that way. So unfortunately, If LS was still alive and CR did carry her back to 5N, I think there is a high probability that he (based on many known reports of his behavior before and since) sexually assaulted her.

Another potential conflict in that scenario is why JR would cover for CR.
And so again, I think for JR the same reasons for cover up would exist. If there was sexual misconduct, he may not have known about it. But getting JR involved and results in the same CYA response just over the drugs or how it might have looked, would likely still apply. Meaning that, I see CR as a more likely sexual perp with Lauren being unconscious, and could have happened without JR ever being aware of it. There was that 1/2 hr interval between the alley fall and the MB call to JR. Inside that 1/2 hr CR could have sexually assaulted LS and then something went terribly wrong. Then perhaps MB may not have even known exactly what happened or covered it up. In the case that I just saw unfold there were several people attempting to conspire to keep the incident quiet, no one reported it except the victim. The desensitization of young people to such an act is positively horrify. So I thought of all the doubters that people would not behave this way... I just saw it happen. And know why they conspired.
And there is that recent Stuebenville OH case of punish the victim thinking by the group - why?

CR would have a really important reason to hide a body... and JR may have been tricked into thinking culpability might all fall his way. On the other hand even if JR knew what CR did, he still may have felt culpable enough to arrange for disposal. So I wonder, assuming that sexual assault did occur with LS being unconscious, if JR learned that CR did that, would he cop a deal to reveal where she is? Give JR immunity for drugs in exchange for location of the body. In this way if they could find CR's semen, JR could walk.

Finally, I have to say after seeing what I have seen this could happen to just about any young woman anywhere in the country.

And... without question if you have the balls to ditch the body of a friend you also have the balls for sexual assault while someone is unconscious.

There is something terribly wrong with our culture.

 

[VeryVeritas]

We know from reports that LS left SW and went with DR to 5N. My questions is: has it ever been stated why she went with DR? Did she select DR because:

He was the only male at SW that she knew at that time of the morning
She knew he had drugs with him and wanted some
She wanted someone to walk with her for security reasons
Combination of all three

We know LS had been to 5N prior with HT and the walk was only a few blocks away so she would have known the way. So why ask someone to walk with you. The fact that DR left and returned back to SW tells me she just wanted someone to walk with her.

So, if it was for security reasons then why would she opt for walking home from JR’s some 4 hours later without anyone? You might say she was not in the right frame of mind at that time, but JR claims she passed the walking test and she was using his phone to make calls. If she was in a frame of mind to do these things why walk home by yourself when you asked someone to walk with you 4 hours earlier?

I agree with your assessment. Since DR left very shortly after arriving at 5N it also supports the idea that he was accompanying her because she didn't want to be alone. And I'll bet that DR and LS took that same path up the Alley to 5N (as LS did with CR) and that they didn't go up N. College to 11th. I think LS was accustomed to that alley route, and agree she would not want to walk alone. (So JR's assumption that she would go down N. College seems like a crack in his story) That 4:15 call to DR is real curious.
If you think JR was doing CYA at that time, what might he have said to DR?
Things like, hey what drugs did you do with LS earlier tonight?
Like maybe hey DR, she doesn't look good, what did YOU give her?

 

[imkeylime]

... Finally, I have to say after seeing what I have seen this could happen to just about any young woman anywhere in the country.

And... without question if you have the balls to ditch the body of a friend you also have the balls for sexual assault while someone is unconscious.

There is something terribly wrong with our culture.

It's so frightening. Check out the recent ruling in the Maryville, MD ("Daisy"), case ... a misdemeanor (child endangerment) for leaving a 14-year-old girl intoxicated and incoherent on her front porch in 30-degree weather after allegedly giving her alcohol and raping her. The rape couldn't be proven, as it allegedly could have been "consensual" ... but her blood alcohol level was .13 seven hours later. The girl had a friend (assaulted by another boy) who backed her story. But so did the boy.

Also, my worst scenario is that more than one POI could have been involved in a sexual assault involving LS. It's so terrible to conceive of, but it does happen. That would certainly be a reason they would cover for each other.

 

[AbbeyR]

...There was that 1/2 hr interval between the alley fall and the MB call to JR. Inside that 1/2 hr CR could have sexually assaulted LS and then something went terribly wrong. Then perhaps MB may not have even known exactly what happened or covered it up. In the case that I just saw unfold there were several people attempting to conspire to keep the incident quiet, no one reported it except the victim. The desensitization of young people to such an act is positively horrify. So I thought of all the doubters that people would not behave this way... I just saw it happen. And know why they conspired. And there is that recent Stuebenville OH case of punish the victim thinking by the group - why? <snipped for space>

I find it really suspicious that MB has changed his story about the time period that you mention. It really makes me think that something important happened when Corey and Lauren got back to 5 N, because that's when the story falls apart in major ways and it seems like there were deliberate attempts to mislead others. The early statements from MB's lawyer stated that he had been home all night ('stone cold sober') working on his papers, and when Lauren and Corey arrived home, he put Corey to bed, then chatted with Lauren before she left on her own. At the time, I wondered if the 'putting to bed' story was to eliminate any questions about Corey and Lauren being alone together. But according to the lawsuit docs, it turns out that MB wasn't even home when Corey and Lauren got there, as he [oddly] believed his apartment may have been broken into, before entering and realizing it was CR and LS.

It's not like MB's story has just varied in minor details. Based on the statements he has told witnesses, his lawyer's statements and the information from the private investigators, he told several totally different stories about where he was and where Lauren was and what happened at 5 N.

 

[sammi89]

never heard that DR came forward on his own. He cooperated, but never made anything public, not even a good word for Lauren. What is missing from this case is any of her friends really outpouring their love for Lauren.
IMO, this shows how angry they are at her for "causing" their lives to be turned upside down. They were all on a runaway train but couldn't see that,
and they ALL had a first class ticket.

http://ww.heraldtimesonline.com/sto...o-in-the-lauren-spierer-case-then-and-now.sto

DR came forward, talked to the Spierers extensively, and passed a polygraph administered by the FBI. He didn't have to do these things, so I consider that voluntary.

The Spierers have said only one person has come forward voluntarily. I think it is him for the above reasons and because they are trying to keep private some evidence, maybe DR was asked to keep whatever information he gave private?

If I'm recalling correctly, he participated in the searches early on and I believe posted some things asking for people to help with the searches on twitter? I have yet to see anything from DR blaming LS. I do agree that 5N, HT, and JW's parents have publicly made comments blaming LS herself, but I don't recall DR having done so?