I have wondered if in cases such as this, when remains are found, once they are identified, the family is notified; and the family requests that information be withheld from the media. There seem to have been a number of situations in which remains were found and no further information was released. There were male remains in southern Illinois, the remains mentioned above, etc. I don't recall if the remains near Edinburgh were identified.
IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #35
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I have wondered if in cases such as this, when remains are found, once they are identified, the family is notified; and the family requests that information be withheld from the media. There seem to have been a number of situations in which remains were found and no further information was released. There were male remains in southern Illinois, the remains mentioned above, etc. I don't recall if the remains near Edinburgh were identified.
Ixchel13
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Splain me
Forgive me, everyone, if I'm stating the obvious (or irrelevant)....but aren't these maps also (more or less) showing the route one would drive from Bloomington to JMW's Dad's place in Trafalgar where the cadaver dogs were indicating?
This map is from 10th & College to the Wagers' property. The route shown is obviously not one that anyone would actually drive if they were trying to stay under the radar.
This map is from 10th & College to the Wagers' property. The route shown is obviously not one that anyone would actually drive if they were trying to stay under the radar.
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Ixchel13
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Forgive me, everyone, if I'm stating the obvious (or irrelevant)....but aren't these maps also (more or less) showing the route one would drive from Bloomington to JMW's Dad's place in Trafalgar where the cadaver dogs were indicating?
This map is from 10th & College to the Wagers' property. The route shown is obviously not one that anyone would actually drive if they were trying to stay under the radar.
BBM==yes that is what I'm trying to show as well with these maps!. There is also a small branch of Ison Rd off of 45 on the way down to Lake Lemon, I drove by it every day for the entire summer of 2014.
I wanted to ask a few questions about this if you don't mind, some of the timeline in various places seems a bit muddled. I haven't gone over all 34 previous threads! I'm hoping someone can fill in the blanks?
1) Am I correct in assuming (reading between the lines) that David Rohn lived in the same apartment block / residence as Lauren?
2) The reports say that Lauren's keys and purse were found in an alleyway - what is meant by a purse? In the UK a purse is what you keep your money in, you might call it a wallet, but I know that in the US a purse can mean a bag, what we'd call a handbag.
3) If the purse was a bag did Lauren keep her keys in it?
3a) I assume from the way it was reported that Lauren's keys and purse were found separately in the alley?
4) Lauren's purse and keys were found in the alleyway - when were they found?
5) The video showing Lauren exiting the alleyway at 2.51 - does it show her carrying her purse, or keys, and is she wearing shoes / footwear of any kind?
6) Is the assumption that Lauren dropped her keys and purse on the way to Rossman's apartment, or that she dropped them on the way back from Rosenbaum's to her own apartment?
Presumably she was in the company of Rossman in the first scenario, so even if she was really the worse for wear and dropped her purse he would maybe have noticed? He was after all carrying her at one point so can't have been too drunk - he didn't fall over even while trying to balance himself and Lauren.
6a) Also I presume that this alley is en route to Rossman's apartment from Lauren's, and would also therefore have been the route home for Lauren from Rosenbaum's apartment to her own place of residence?
6b) Did the Police etc watch the entirity of the video of the alleyway - i.e. from the time she exited it at 2.51, to the time when the keys and purse were found - i.e. if "someone" was trying to imply or infer that Lauren dropped her belongings on the way back to her own apartment (i.e. she had therefore left Rosenbaum's apartment) - they would probably have been caught on video there when they deposited her purse and keys - perhaps many hours later.
7) Rosenbaum said he last saw Lauren at 11th street and college avenue - is this en route to the alleyway, and is this visible from Rosenbaum's apartment?
7a) If he couldn't see her from his apartment then he must have walked part of the way with her?
7b) In either case if he had other people present - what were they doing - surely they can vouch for his behaviour and actions?
8) The phone calls allegedly made from Rosenbaums cell phone by Lauren - one was to Rohn - who was the other to and what was his background and relationship with both Lauren and Rosenbaum?
8a) Clearly Rosenbaum knew Rohn - and he must have known the other male if Lauren called him from Rosenbaum's phone - how did Lauren know this other person?
9) Did Rosenbaum have other visitors that night, and who were they? This seems to have been almost ignored if other people were present- why is that?
10) On the 7th of June Rosenbaum hired very "big hitting" defense lawyers. this is just 3 full days after Lauren had disappeared, while she could still just have "dropped off the radar" - are these lawyers local to the area, and how did Rosenbaum afford them?
10a) I take it they are not cheap, so who paid / how is this funded?
11) Is either Rohn, or Rosenbaum, or both known for dealing drugs?
12) Are Beth or Rossman or both known for dealing drugs?
12a) Is the mystery man called from Rosenbaum's cell phone known for dealing drugs?
13) Are any of these people known for or have subsequently or previously been charged with or investigated for any kind of crimes?
14) Was Beth an acquaintance of Rohn's at that time (that Lauren went missing) - I assume not?
15) Is it true that Beth told one person that he put Rossman to bed and when he came downstairs Lauren was gone, and then subsequently said he called Rosenbaum to look after Lauren?
16) Was Beth sober at the time - I believe he had been writing an assignment or paper?
I hope you don't mind me asking, but there are some questions raised from some of these points depending on the answers.
E.g. If Lauren had lost her cell phone and wanted to call someone like Rohn and a.n.other, then she would need the cell phone of someone who knew them to do that since she would be highly unlikely to have memorized the numbers.
If Beth didn't know Rohn, but Rosenbaum did, then isn't that a lucky coincidence that Beth thought at 3-30 or so in the morning to ring Rosenbaum to "look after" Lauren?
Thereby serendipitously putting Lauren with someone who just happened to be able to call her "friends"?
But why did he (Beth) then tell 2 different stories about what happened to different people (assuming that's what did happen)?
Although Lauren may have been the worse for wear through alcohol and maybe drugs, she was savvy enough to (supposedly) ring Rohn to find out where her cell phone was (allegedly), but assuming she dropped her purse and keys on the way to Rossman's apartment - then why wasn't she concerned about those, surely they would be far more pressing since her purse would have contained money / cards / etc, and the keys give entrance to her apartment?
This surely implies that Lauren is supposed to have lost these items on the way back to her apartment - what do Rossman, Beth, or Rosenbaum say about this - do they mention seeing her purse or keys while she was with them?
Also, if she had indeed lost her purse and keys on the way to Rossman's, then why would she set off back to her apartment in the early hours of the morning knowing she couldn't get in when she arrived? Unless she was planning on knocking up the neighbour with the spare keys.
This to me suggests it's most likely that she is supposed to have lost them on the way back to her apartment, after allegedly leaving Rosenbaum's?
But then again Lauren isn't seen on video again - is she? So that suggests she must have lost them on the way to Rossman's apartment, otherwise the same video cameras would have picked her up later?
But if she did leave Rosenbaums - then why isn't she seen on camera again - etc, etc, etc.
The reason I ask if Rohn was in the same apartment block as Lauren - she went back there but didn't enter her apartment, but spent some 12 minutes or so doing something.
If Rohn was based there, and considering that either Rosenbaum or Lauren called him at c.4-15am, then it could be because something had happened and Rosenbaum or one or all of the others was panicked and called someone who "may be able to help".
I'm sure you can see what I'm thinking there.
Like maybe to find out what he had given her / she bought / had taken - if you catch my drift.
This would also explain why she went to her apartment block but didn't go to her own apartment - maybe to buy something.
This scenario may also explain why Beth called Rosenbaum at a very early hour - if something happened to Lauren at Beth / Rossman's, and Rosenbaum was closely involved with Rohn - which seems to be the case.
Anyway that is all speculation, but clearly since the boys involved seem to have all clammed up, hired defense lawyers, and refuse to speak to anyone it seems that they might have something to hide.
I'm not suggesting any of them did anything, but the story seems a bit out of whack in terms of what is supposed to have happened and the physical evidence, such as it is.
Thanks.
1) Am I correct in assuming (reading between the lines) that David Rohn lived in the same apartment block / residence as Lauren?
2) The reports say that Lauren's keys and purse were found in an alleyway - what is meant by a purse? In the UK a purse is what you keep your money in, you might call it a wallet, but I know that in the US a purse can mean a bag, what we'd call a handbag.
3) If the purse was a bag did Lauren keep her keys in it?
3a) I assume from the way it was reported that Lauren's keys and purse were found separately in the alley?
4) Lauren's purse and keys were found in the alleyway - when were they found?
5) The video showing Lauren exiting the alleyway at 2.51 - does it show her carrying her purse, or keys, and is she wearing shoes / footwear of any kind?
6) Is the assumption that Lauren dropped her keys and purse on the way to Rossman's apartment, or that she dropped them on the way back from Rosenbaum's to her own apartment?
Presumably she was in the company of Rossman in the first scenario, so even if she was really the worse for wear and dropped her purse he would maybe have noticed? He was after all carrying her at one point so can't have been too drunk - he didn't fall over even while trying to balance himself and Lauren.
6a) Also I presume that this alley is en route to Rossman's apartment from Lauren's, and would also therefore have been the route home for Lauren from Rosenbaum's apartment to her own place of residence?
6b) Did the Police etc watch the entirity of the video of the alleyway - i.e. from the time she exited it at 2.51, to the time when the keys and purse were found - i.e. if "someone" was trying to imply or infer that Lauren dropped her belongings on the way back to her own apartment (i.e. she had therefore left Rosenbaum's apartment) - they would probably have been caught on video there when they deposited her purse and keys - perhaps many hours later.
7) Rosenbaum said he last saw Lauren at 11th street and college avenue - is this en route to the alleyway, and is this visible from Rosenbaum's apartment?
7a) If he couldn't see her from his apartment then he must have walked part of the way with her?
7b) In either case if he had other people present - what were they doing - surely they can vouch for his behaviour and actions?
8) The phone calls allegedly made from Rosenbaums cell phone by Lauren - one was to Rohn - who was the other to and what was his background and relationship with both Lauren and Rosenbaum?
8a) Clearly Rosenbaum knew Rohn - and he must have known the other male if Lauren called him from Rosenbaum's phone - how did Lauren know this other person?
9) Did Rosenbaum have other visitors that night, and who were they? This seems to have been almost ignored if other people were present- why is that?
10) On the 7th of June Rosenbaum hired very "big hitting" defense lawyers. this is just 3 full days after Lauren had disappeared, while she could still just have "dropped off the radar" - are these lawyers local to the area, and how did Rosenbaum afford them?
10a) I take it they are not cheap, so who paid / how is this funded?
11) Is either Rohn, or Rosenbaum, or both known for dealing drugs?
12) Are Beth or Rossman or both known for dealing drugs?
12a) Is the mystery man called from Rosenbaum's cell phone known for dealing drugs?
13) Are any of these people known for or have subsequently or previously been charged with or investigated for any kind of crimes?
14) Was Beth an acquaintance of Rohn's at that time (that Lauren went missing) - I assume not?
15) Is it true that Beth told one person that he put Rossman to bed and when he came downstairs Lauren was gone, and then subsequently said he called Rosenbaum to look after Lauren?
16) Was Beth sober at the time - I believe he had been writing an assignment or paper?
I hope you don't mind me asking, but there are some questions raised from some of these points depending on the answers.
E.g. If Lauren had lost her cell phone and wanted to call someone like Rohn and a.n.other, then she would need the cell phone of someone who knew them to do that since she would be highly unlikely to have memorized the numbers.
If Beth didn't know Rohn, but Rosenbaum did, then isn't that a lucky coincidence that Beth thought at 3-30 or so in the morning to ring Rosenbaum to "look after" Lauren?
Thereby serendipitously putting Lauren with someone who just happened to be able to call her "friends"?
But why did he (Beth) then tell 2 different stories about what happened to different people (assuming that's what did happen)?
Although Lauren may have been the worse for wear through alcohol and maybe drugs, she was savvy enough to (supposedly) ring Rohn to find out where her cell phone was (allegedly), but assuming she dropped her purse and keys on the way to Rossman's apartment - then why wasn't she concerned about those, surely they would be far more pressing since her purse would have contained money / cards / etc, and the keys give entrance to her apartment?
This surely implies that Lauren is supposed to have lost these items on the way back to her apartment - what do Rossman, Beth, or Rosenbaum say about this - do they mention seeing her purse or keys while she was with them?
Also, if she had indeed lost her purse and keys on the way to Rossman's, then why would she set off back to her apartment in the early hours of the morning knowing she couldn't get in when she arrived? Unless she was planning on knocking up the neighbour with the spare keys.
This to me suggests it's most likely that she is supposed to have lost them on the way back to her apartment, after allegedly leaving Rosenbaum's?
But then again Lauren isn't seen on video again - is she? So that suggests she must have lost them on the way to Rossman's apartment, otherwise the same video cameras would have picked her up later?
But if she did leave Rosenbaums - then why isn't she seen on camera again - etc, etc, etc.
The reason I ask if Rohn was in the same apartment block as Lauren - she went back there but didn't enter her apartment, but spent some 12 minutes or so doing something.
If Rohn was based there, and considering that either Rosenbaum or Lauren called him at c.4-15am, then it could be because something had happened and Rosenbaum or one or all of the others was panicked and called someone who "may be able to help".
I'm sure you can see what I'm thinking there.
Like maybe to find out what he had given her / she bought / had taken - if you catch my drift.
This would also explain why she went to her apartment block but didn't go to her own apartment - maybe to buy something.
This scenario may also explain why Beth called Rosenbaum at a very early hour - if something happened to Lauren at Beth / Rossman's, and Rosenbaum was closely involved with Rohn - which seems to be the case.
Anyway that is all speculation, but clearly since the boys involved seem to have all clammed up, hired defense lawyers, and refuse to speak to anyone it seems that they might have something to hide.
I'm not suggesting any of them did anything, but the story seems a bit out of whack in terms of what is supposed to have happened and the physical evidence, such as it is.
Thanks.
1) yes, DR lived at Smallwood. http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/2013/06/02/7175267.htm
2)-4)As I recall, it was a small coin purse. A.J. Amin found the purse and the keys between 2:30 and 3:00 a.m. And put them on a railing where they were later found by police. A.J. did not know who owned the keys and purse. The keys or purse might have been on a wristlet. The descriptions in the news articles imply the keys and purse were separate items but found at the same time near each other. Some reports state that she dropped her ID card too.http://abcnews.go.com/US/solve-mystery-lauren-spierer/story?id=30148388
5) here is the image released from the surveillance video. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...westchester-student-released-article-1.128888. I do no think it is the same as the 2:51 image.
6). It is believed that she dropped them on the way over.
6a). The alley was one of several routes she could have taken, but according to JR, she appeared to be taking the sidewalk down College Ave. rather than the alley. Please look at the maps and photos in the earliest threads for more details.
6b). The police have released very little information about their efforts in this case, so we don't know exactly what they watched.
7). There is a small balcony in JRs apartment. Whether or not he could actually see her at the corner or not ( due to a light in the way), has been the subject of much discussion and speculation. The general consensus is that he would not have had a completely clear view.
7a). He did not walk with her as far as we know.
7b). It is not clear how many other people were at JRs. DB was one. He was reported to be sleeping in another room. http://www.macombdaily.com/article/MD/20130817/NEWS01/130819496
8) the other call was to a male friend. I do not think any more information has been released.http://www.wbiw.com/local/archive/2...tudent-lauren-spierer-issues-another-plea.php
9) DB, maybe others, were JRs "friends from home". I think they were named as potential witnesses in the lawsuit, but, except for DB, they have successfully stayed out of the limelight. DB tweeted the next morning about eating corned beef hash at The Runcible Spoon, a Bloomington restaurant. The tweet was discovered, which brought his name to the attention of the public.
10) JR's well to do family hired James Voyles, who has the reputation of being the best criminal defense lawyer in the state of Indiana.
11-12) It is not unusual for college students to sell drugs to their friends. I do not know if any of the persons in this group were doing so.
13). Several of the persons involved had minor, mostly alcohol-related, charges such as underage drinking, using a fake ID, public intoxication. If their records have not been cleaned up, they can be seen at mycase.in.gov.
15-16). There have been several stories that allegedly originated from MB. in some he was sober and working on a paper due the next day, in another he was out drinking and came home and thought LS and CR were burglars. In one version he went upstairs with CR and then came down to find that LS had gone, in another he walked her over to JRs, or JR came over to get LS. We do not know which story he would swear was true.
JR had known LS since childhood. Allegedly MB took her to JR because JR had known her longer.
JR said she had her Smallwood key or key card and a fake ID with her when she left.
Why wasn't she seen on video after leaving JRs? That's the question we all want answered.
Thank you that's very enlightening -
"JR said she had her Smallwood key or key card and a fake ID with her when she left" - but her keys were found in the alley with her purse earlier than that, and perhaps her ID was found there as well?
Unless the guy who found them (Amin) and put them on a railing got his times wrong - he should probably be on video as well which would help to define the actual time he found them?
Suppose she didn't leave JR's apartment alive but he said she left with her keys and ID, knowing she had lost them somewhere and they'd be found later which would help give the impression she'd been abducted - but he didn't anticipate that someone had completely by chance ALREADY found them prior to the time he claims she left with them.
Surely if Amin is correct that he found them at 2-30 to 3-00 - then JR HAS to be lying?
Interesting as well that on one of those links you posted Rosenbaum told investigators "he thought he saw someone in the shadows intercept her".
But did nothing...
Or is that to try and point the finger at a an imaginary boogeyman to deflect suspicion?
This is what I recall about the things she carried with her:
Keys - found in gravel lot or alley, placed on rail by AJ Amin - type of key and what they opened unknown
Coin purse - same as above
Student ID - probably in coin purse above - said to have been found with keys
Cell phone - at Kilroy's
Shoes - at Kilroy's
Smallwood key card - with her at JR's
Fake ID - with her at JR's. It or an image of it was used as evidence against Kilroy's. Allegedly found on or near Walnut Street, not confirmed by police.
Jacket and jewelry and other clothing. - never found
Credit cards - not known if she had any or if they were found
I don't think the area where the keys were found was covered by video.
If JR saw that she was intercepted by someone he recognized or someone he presumed was OK ( security guard, police, ...) he would have no reason to investigate.
Keys - found in gravel lot or alley, placed on rail by AJ Amin - type of key and what they opened unknown
Coin purse - same as above
Student ID - probably in coin purse above - said to have been found with keys
Cell phone - at Kilroy's
Shoes - at Kilroy's
Smallwood key card - with her at JR's
Fake ID - with her at JR's. It or an image of it was used as evidence against Kilroy's. Allegedly found on or near Walnut Street, not confirmed by police.
Jacket and jewelry and other clothing. - never found
Credit cards - not known if she had any or if they were found
I don't think the area where the keys were found was covered by video.
If JR saw that she was intercepted by someone he recognized or someone he presumed was OK ( security guard, police, ...) he would have no reason to investigate.
I believe AA described a small purple purse or wristlet with a small gold key, whereas JR claimed she had her key card and fake id? I've wondered how he knew this since it doesn't seem she had pockets or was able to carry anything, so maybe CR had them...
Re. 13- some of the records have changed. Nothing major, but Corey Rossman had charges related to drug possession/ selling. The others had some alcohol related charges.
There was also someone else living at 5N (not with any of the poi) who has never been publicly named who had charges related to dealing cocaine, so it's possible they had a source very nearby.
Re. 13- some of the records have changed. Nothing major, but Corey Rossman had charges related to drug possession/ selling. The others had some alcohol related charges.
There was also someone else living at 5N (not with any of the poi) who has never been publicly named who had charges related to dealing cocaine, so it's possible they had a source very nearby.
She could have given them to CR to hold when they left Sports. Maybe they planned on going back to Sports instead of 5N before the fight at SW happened. I wonder if she could have had those in her jacket at some point? I've always wondered what happened to that jacket. Did she leave it at JR's earlier in the night or leave it at Sports but it wasn't mentioned? Since we don't see her on camera leaving JR's, is it possible she had the jacket back on when she left? Or could someone have gotten rid of it for whatever reason? The missing jacket has always bothered me.
The claim about thinking he saw someone in the shadows intercept her came out later versus sooner, if I recall correctly. I've always thought it was a deflection. OTOH, although the calls to DR and the unidentified second caller were apparently unanswered, I wonder if someone from the apartment could have left to personally contact someone? Maybe he was expecting someone but doesn't want to be specific?
Also, I've always thought CR and LS might have been headed to SW to pick up something, although that's not the general consensus given her condition at that point. But CR might have wanted whatever the something was, you know?
IMH
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"Why wasn't she seen on video after leaving JRs? That's the question we all want answered."
IF she left 5N on 11th walking east on the south side of the street on the sidewalk towards College (where the guy says she was headed), at that point in time there wasn't any video attached to any building in that area. There was a new building under construction on the north side of 11th across from 5N all the way to the corner of 11th & College. She would have presumably stayed on the south sidewalk on 11th before rounding the corner to head south on College, walking on the west side of College. Several older homes are located on the south side of 11th, and she would have walked past those on her way east to the corner of 11th and College. College is a one way, 3 lane street heading south. The south east corner of College and 11th is Delilah's pet store, which is set far back from that intersection with a big parking lot between College and the pet store itself. IF she made it to this intersection, and turned right heading south on College towards Smallwood, the next available video camera might have been the 10th & College building they mention her stopping at earlier in the evening, but personally I doubt she made it that far, which is why no video.
Here is a shot of
Here is 5N and the 2nd floor balcony (right of photo), looking towards College the way the guy says he saw her go. It's a very small balcony, so his story that he leaned out to watch her as far as he could seems probable. Notice this is all new construction...
Here is 11th and College:
You can see the older homes on the south side of 11th street. The "Lofts" apartments you see on the northeast corner of 11th and College were also under construction at the time of her disappearance.
This is College looking north towards 11th. The entire left side of the photo is the path she would have taken before she gets to 10th & College apartments, which you can just see on the far left corner next to the "one way sign" - so everything you see on the left is the path she would have taken. There are alleys on the left you can see as well.
So if the 5N dude really did see her go east on 11th towards College, then she was fair game for anyone trolling that area at that time, with a bunch of new construction across the street on north 11th, both before she got to College, and on the other side of college.
I hope this provides some context as to her possible path and why she was vulnerable.
IF she left 5N on 11th walking east on the south side of the street on the sidewalk towards College (where the guy says she was headed), at that point in time there wasn't any video attached to any building in that area. There was a new building under construction on the north side of 11th across from 5N all the way to the corner of 11th & College. She would have presumably stayed on the south sidewalk on 11th before rounding the corner to head south on College, walking on the west side of College. Several older homes are located on the south side of 11th, and she would have walked past those on her way east to the corner of 11th and College. College is a one way, 3 lane street heading south. The south east corner of College and 11th is Delilah's pet store, which is set far back from that intersection with a big parking lot between College and the pet store itself. IF she made it to this intersection, and turned right heading south on College towards Smallwood, the next available video camera might have been the 10th & College building they mention her stopping at earlier in the evening, but personally I doubt she made it that far, which is why no video.
Here is a shot of
Here is 5N and the 2nd floor balcony (right of photo), looking towards College the way the guy says he saw her go. It's a very small balcony, so his story that he leaned out to watch her as far as he could seems probable. Notice this is all new construction...
Here is 11th and College:
You can see the older homes on the south side of 11th street. The "Lofts" apartments you see on the northeast corner of 11th and College were also under construction at the time of her disappearance.
This is College looking north towards 11th. The entire left side of the photo is the path she would have taken before she gets to 10th & College apartments, which you can just see on the far left corner next to the "one way sign" - so everything you see on the left is the path she would have taken. There are alleys on the left you can see as well.
So if the 5N dude really did see her go east on 11th towards College, then she was fair game for anyone trolling that area at that time, with a bunch of new construction across the street on north 11th, both before she got to College, and on the other side of college.
I hope this provides some context as to her possible path and why she was vulnerable.
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Ixchel13
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Forgive me, everyone, if I'm stating the obvious (or irrelevant)....but aren't these maps also (more or less) showing the route one would drive from Bloomington to JMW's Dad's place in Trafalgar where the cadaver dogs were indicating?
This map is from 10th & College to the Wagers' property. The route shown is obviously not one that anyone would actually drive if they were trying to stay under the radar.
YB: Can you take your map and include the Plum Creek Rd part Where DM put Hannah?
And then enlarge it and pinpoint the Baby Creek Rd. spot?
And then pinpoint where the overpass blocked DM?
I don't ask for much lol.
Also, we are just speculating that the construction stopped him.
I don't mind going back to the original timeline, POIs and such...but
I still think we should scour the web to see if we can connect these guys, and then back to the POIs.
doubtingthomas
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IMH, in your picture of 11th and College why is there no sidewalk on 11th? It looks like the house is right next to the street.
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