IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #35

[imkeylime]

It doesn't do much good, at least on first thought, to argue he had an accomplice and the police failed to figure that fact out. So let's think what the defense must be angling for... My guess:
That he didn't have his car that night. That he'd loaned it out or it was stolen (or borrowed without permission). Or a spin on that, and he was not in control of his car that night because he was heavily intoxicated, passed out, or arguably drugged, even if he was in the car.

I don't see any reason just to argue there's DNA from someone else if all it does is give him an accomplice he can't/won't name (or even if he does name them) or point to the police missing an unnamed accomplice. So he must be going to argue he wasn't in possession of, or control of, his vehicle that night.

interesting. let me find my post about that. the guy I was talking to, his daughter was a witness, because she was working at Yogis the night HW was killed and she confirmed DM was in there.The guy was saying that people were saying he was drugged during the crime..,...IDK...

In my mind, even if he apprehended HW but didn't kill her, LWOP or DP.

Yes, someone may have been there too, I think on HWs thread I posted that the blood on the drivers side of the car might be DMs and LE downplayed his injuries to scratches on his arms on purpose.

HW was killed with DM.s MO. She was unceremoniously dumped in a yard, just like DM said he did to other [alive] victims.

She was injured in his car, and he drove to his house the next morning in his car.

At some point, he may have lost control of his vehicle, but then he got it back, he was with
the supposed accomplice, so you're right. Unless he can produce this accomplice {JMW}

he flies solo on these charges.

yeah, IMO, JMW is involved. And that's why the raid.

and the delay is so they can spill all of the beans possible on each other and everyone else they know.

Have you heard any talk of DM's possible involvement in a pornographic ring or anything like that, i.e., could there be an accomplice who shares illicit organized activities? It's my opinion that's what happened in the Oakland County Child Killer (OCCK) case that I bring up from time to time. There's a man in prison who allegedly was sexually abused as a teenager by the man whom I suspect was the killer (deceased) but joined up with him instead of turning him in. Both were reportedly part of a larger child *advertiser censored* ring, it appears.

The particulars of the OCCK are very different, of course, but perhaps this is the type of thing we're dealing with here. Just a thought.

 

[Yeahbabs]

That's totally just flippin' ..... Creepy. Do you know who owned it?

It was an older lady named Jackie. Her last name is escaping me now, it was something pretty generic. She invited us over for tea to sign the lease and seemed like the sweetest lady in the world. We never really had any problems or contact after that.

 

[Yeahbabs]

This whole extra DNA thing doesn't seem to add up to much IMO. They mention all of the places that other DNA was found but they don't even say that it was all DNA from the same person. I would imagine that I probably have a bunch on random DNA in my car (as well as random crackers and whatnot).

I am definitely hoping that DM's trial answers a lot of these questions but this angle strikes me as his attorney grasping at straws.

By the way, how did the judge rule on this?

 

[Btown]

By the way, how did the judge rule on this?

The Judge ruled that the DNA evidence can be presented.

Judge Judith Stewart ruled the DNA admissible and relevant because it was found at the crime scene.

The trial is scheduled to start Thursday, July 28 in Brown Circuit Court.

Judge Rules On DNA Evidence In Daniel Messell's Murder Trial

 

[Ixchel13]

someone said DM's car was a work perk. Anyone know if that's true? We were discussing touch DNA and Bessie had posted an article about forensics recovering 17 year old DNA from the surface of a rock!

The car having many DNAs would be a no-brainer. But whose? If these strains of DNA include those from "other missing women" as has been inferred then there's your link to JMW.

Wait, I didn't mean they have inferred that this is confirmed. But one would think the authorities knew of the other DNA all along. They have done their matching. They made their raid after
connecting dots with another suspect in other disappearances based on that.

During the raid, they took things away. I'm still flummoxed about the trailer the dogs hit on
for cadaverine and the Dad smugly telling the newspaper a man died in the trailer that's why.
But basically telling the world that the dogs were no good.

IMH did an amazing job connecting the gun guy (that would be BTown's question--was there any organized crime involved) and the snitch in jail together; and didn't IMH find out they were both petty criminals in Terre Haute? where DM hung out?

As noted before, when LE (FBI too?) raided RR's house for firearms, they found scores of them but they all looked the same. This is not a gun collection as he refers to it, but a small arsenal.
He was on the roof of that parking garage with a military scope and loaded guns. AIMING towards Kilroys, trained on the door.

Then, he drags Lauren's disappearance into it when he gets caught.

Right around the time RR gets caught, the investigation seemed to go completely off the grid ,
I don't think we were ever given another piece of info from LE after that.

truthfully, I figured this guy would end up dead. Who was he trying to kill I wonder?
One of the "witnesses" to the altercation, BB, who was with ZO at altercation, worked at Kilroys during that time. just sayin.

YeahBabs, this may be the trial hold up, trying to match the DNAs to victims.

One more thing, OBS some of the DNA belongs to his friend he gave a ride home to on the night he killed Hannah. Will he be a witness for prosecution or defense?

It's one thing for the DNA to be in the car, another if it's in the car and the grass. And they keep
talking about the DNA on perp, and obs they found Hannah's friends' DNA, but if a
DNA matches anywhere outside of the car at the crime scene we have our participant.

Brought up several subjects on purpose to remind us of IMH sleuthing, YeahBabs maps
so we can try to discuss it with the DNA subject. Because that KIA might be holding a DNA trove of connections.

 

[imkeylime]

This isn't even doing the weirdness of BTown justice. You all know much more about the rural areas surrounding the campus better than I do, but for anther example:

During my 2nd year at IU I lived in a very strange house at 2nd & Washington. It was maybe at one time divided into a couple of apartments, but walls were torn down and it was made into one house. I lived there with 2 other girls. One of them and I each had normal bedrooms, but the third was this tiny room. The rest of the house (except for this third "bedroom") had hardwood floors, but this room had carpet. But the carpet wasn't really installed per se - a rectangle the size of the room had been cut out of carpet and just kind of put down. We moved the carpet one day and discovered a trap door. It had a ladder that went down to a "basement". I say it like that because it was just dirt, like someone had been like, "Hey, let's make a basement!" but started digging and said, "F this, too much work" and quit.

But also (we're still talking about the same property), we had a huge backyard. The strange part about that was there was this concrete square (about 2-3' x 2-3') with a concrete circle of the same thickness above it. But the two parts looked like they were connected, like it was all one piece. One day we had people over and one of our friends kicked/slid the circle and it moved! There was some kind of tunnel that went sideways in both directions. We weren't equipped in any way to explore it, but...WTF could it have been?!

Sorry for the tangent, but my point is that that was ONE house of countless, any of which could have these strange secrets - and that is right within the main college part of Bloomington. So between those kinds of places, the terrifying video Ixchel13 posted of that creepy abandoned house, and the surrounding rural areas.....the mind reels.

I couldn't help but think of your quote when I read the article linked below re: James Worley. When I was growing up in southeastern MI, my aunt had an old house that had been part of the underground railroad. The possibilities of such a place are so scary.

I also couldn't help but think of LS, obviously.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/sierah-...llege-students-death-had-hidden-room-in-barn/

 

[Matic]

someone said DM's car was a work perk. Anyone know if that's true? We were discussing touch DNA and Bessie had posted an article about forensics recovering 17 year old DNA from the surface of a rock!

The car having many DNAs would be a no-brainer. But whose? If these strains of DNA include those from "other missing women" as has been inferred then there's your link to JMW.

Wait, I didn't mean they have inferred that this is confirmed. But one would think the authorities knew of the other DNA all along. They have done their matching. They made their raid after
connecting dots with another suspect in other disappearances based on that.

During the raid, they took things away. I'm still flummoxed about the trailer the dogs hit on
for cadaverine and the Dad smugly telling the newspaper a man died in the trailer that's why.
But basically telling the world that the dogs were no good.

IMH did an amazing job connecting the gun guy (that would be BTown's question--was there any organized crime involved) and the snitch in jail together; and didn't IMH find out they were both petty criminals in Terre Haute? where DM hung out?

As noted before, when LE (FBI too?) raided RR's house for firearms, they found scores of them but they all looked the same. This is not a gun collection as he refers to it, but a small arsenal.
He was on the roof of that parking garage with a military scope and loaded guns. AIMING towards Kilroys, trained on the door.

Then, he drags Lauren's disappearance into it when he gets caught.

Right around the time RR gets caught, the investigation seemed to go completely off the grid ,
I don't think we were ever given another piece of info from LE after that.

truthfully, I figured this guy would end up dead. Who was he trying to kill I wonder?
One of the "witnesses" to the altercation, BB, who was with ZO at altercation, worked at Kilroys during that time. just sayin.

YeahBabs, this may be the trial hold up, trying to match the DNAs to victims.

One more thing, OBS some of the DNA belongs to his friend he gave a ride home to on the night he killed Hannah. Will he be a witness for prosecution or defense?

It's one thing for the DNA to be in the car, another if it's in the car and the grass. And they keep
talking about the DNA on perp, and obs they found Hannah's friends' DNA, but if a
DNA matches anywhere outside of the car at the crime scene we have our participant.

Brought up several subjects on purpose to remind us of IMH sleuthing, YeahBabs maps
so we can try to discuss it with the DNA subject. Because that KIA might be holding a DNA trove of connections.

Morning.
The webpage keeps timing out before I can finish my reply. So I'll make it short.

Concerning RR.
He was not caught with a military scope trained on the door of kilroys. It was a lazer range finder. Could have been an archery or rifle range finder or it could have been a golf rangefinder. All three do exactly the same thing....read range to a stationary object.

His arsenal of weapons was nothing more than a bunch of old lever actions and a couple shotguns. Probably not anymore than my granpa kept or alot of my friends granparents kept. They all looked the same because they basically were.
Old lever action deer rifles. .22, 30-30, .273, .44 winchesters, marlins, henrys.
Alot of people collect these old lever action "cowboy" rifles because they hold value and it was the same style rifles that won the west and that granparents and great granparents used to feed there family with many years ago.

If you are going on a shooting spree, the last rifle you would prob choose is a lever action that only holds maybe 7 -9 rnds and pretty difficult to reload under stress.


He was caught with 2 loaded pistols in his pockets and a loaded shotgun in his trunk. No sniper military scoped rifles.
And he had a permit and was perfectly legal to carry a handgun or 2 or 3.

Theres probably 2 firearms in as many vehicles that I own. No big deal. If its legal...why not?

He wasnt arrested but was taken in for 24 hr pshyc eval. And released but his firearms totalling 44 rifles, shotguns and handguns were confiscated and never given back. Which I personally think was total bs.

I think this was just some old crazy fart inserting himself into the LS case and BPD's way of using this as a "gun control" agenda.

Fact is... the man never did anything illigal. And if hes tied to DM or the LS case, the BPD already know this.

 

[Matic]

Learning how to posts pics on my note 5. Yay!!

I count 13 lever action rifles just in the front row and maybe 3 shotguns.
I'm quite sure most of the rest are lever actions as well.
This to me looks like a legit "collection" and not some evil arsenal this guy was stockpiling
To go on some rampage.

 

[Ixchel13]

Learning how to posts pics on my note 5. Yay!!

I count 13 lever action rifles just in the front row and maybe 3 shotguns.
I'm quite sure most of the rest are lever actions as well.
This to me looks like a legit "collection" and not some evil arsenal this guy was stockpiling
To go on some rampage.

all MOO JMO IMO guy is not a "crazy fart"

the scope was sophisticated as noted by LE. he had the scope trained on Kilroys while armed with a loaded pistol.

No, he didn't do "anything illegal" because he was caught before he could do anything else.

While it isn't illegal to own firearms, playing war games downtown at night is I believe...ya know, for one thing, disrupting peace, etc.

I think you're a nice poster, but if you think people like him should be given their guns back maybe there really is a need for serious gun reform. Being ex-military, I qualified with a rifle long ago. But I wouldn't think to go up on a parking garage roof and do recon
on, again, WHOM?

 

[Yeahbabs]

By the way, if anyone is looking for really detailed coverage on DM's trial, check out @becca_costello on Twitter. She's a digital reporter for NPR and PBS affiliates and she's doing an amazing job live tweeting the proceedings.

 

[Matic]

all MOO JMO IMO guy is not a "crazy fart"

the scope was sophisticated as noted by LE. he had the scope trained on Kilroys while armed with a loaded pistol.

No, he didn't do "anything illegal" because he was caught before he could do anything else.

While it isn't illegal to own firearms, playing war games downtown at night is I believe...ya know, for one thing, disrupting peace, etc.

I think you're a nice poster, but if you think people like him should be given their guns back maybe there really is a need for serious gun reform. Being ex-military, I qualified with a rifle long ago. But I wouldn't think to go up on a parking garage roof and do recon
on, again, WHOM?

Awe...thank you!
Do you have a link saying this was some "sophisticated scope"? Because all 4 articles I have read said it was a common range finder.
I think you are a nice poster too. And thank you for your service!
I see no link between this old man and the dissapearence of LS, and neither do law enforcement.

I have a few years being qualified with weapons myself and a few friends that shoot competitive ispca and 3 gun.
Legal cwp carrier for almost 25 yrs.

IMHO, This is America. If you think a person can't collect "long guns" like mr. RR, whether it's 50 or 500, well....idk what to say.

Fact is. He was never charged or thrown in jail.
He was never linked to the dissaperance of LS.
He was never linked to DM or this other guy.
He doesn't have any precious records.
And he doesn't have any previous pshyco evals.....because......the guys a hermit.

So who exactly was he targeting? I didn't see any reports other than he knew the exact yardage to entrance of kilroys
and was rambling about some LS stuff.

Crazy old man, inserting himself in a case in which he has no involvement whatsoever.
JMHO.....MOO.

 

[newmember]

Likely not related but Sierah Joughin's disappearance was eerily similar. Sierah wasn't intoxicated but she began an evening with friends/her boyfriend and then separated (allegedly for LS but confirmed for HW/Sierah) on her way home. Toldeo to Bloomington is about 4 hours, for posters familiar with the area, does that seem too far away/would there be any reason for someone to pass through regularly? James Worley's (suspect arrested) served time for an attempted abduction once before.

http://www.toledoblade.com/Police-Fire/2016/07/23/Police-search-property-of-abduction-suspect.html

http://www.people.com/article/no-human-remains-found-james-worley-ohio-property

 

[Ixchel13]

Awe...thank you!
Do you have a link saying this was some "sophisticated scope"? Because all 4 articles I have read said it was a common range finder.
I think you are a nice poster too. And thank you for your service!
I see no link between this old man and the dissapearence of LS, and neither do law enforcement.

I have a few years being qualified with weapons myself and a few friends that shoot competitive ispca and 3 gun.
Legal cwp carrier for almost 25 yrs.

IMHO, This is America. If you think a person can't collect "long guns" like mr. RR, whether it's 50 or 500, well....idk what to say.

Fact is. He was never charged or thrown in jail.
He was never linked to the dissaperance of LS.
He was never linked to DM or this other guy.
He doesn't have any precious records.
And he doesn't have any previous pshyco evals.....because......the guys a hermit.

So who exactly was he targeting? I didn't see any reports other than he knew the exact yardage to entrance of kilroys
and was rambling about some LS stuff.

Crazy old man, inserting himself in a case in which he has no involvement whatsoever.
JMHO.....MOO.

He doesn't have any precious records.
And he doesn't have any previous pshyco evals.....because......the guys a hermit.

So who exactly was he targeting? I didn't see any reports other than he knew the exact yardage to entrance of kilroys
and was rambling about some LS stuff.
Crazy
Crazy old man, inserting himself in a case in which he has no involvement whatsoever.
JMHO.....MOO.[/QUOTE]


yes, he seems like a crazy old man. Wait, he isn't old.....and, your words, evaluated in 24 hrs and released. he must have not been so crazy.

so now, we're left with an armed middle aged man with a sophisticated scope on the top of a parking garage
aiming towards the door of a busy nightclub. Measuring the distance to the door, finding his range and waiting for his target.


He has a record, which IMH tracked down, and was in jail with the snitch that told police DM moved a body.


Yes this is America, thank God, and we learned in first grade that every freedom comes with a responsibility, including the right to bear arms, which I support, but not a sniper
on top of a parking garage,


IMO, he was caught before he took a shot and he was ready to make an armed escape if he had
to. Who was he looking for/aiming at you ask?

that is the question, along with, does he know any of the suspects?

 

[akh]

http://www.wbiw.com/local/archive/2016/08/defense-claims-daniel-messel-is-innocent-victim.php

Defense Claims Daniel Messel Is Innocent Victim

 

[Ixchel13]

http://www.wbiw.com/local/archive/2016/08/defense-claims-daniel-messel-is-innocent-victim.php

lol and akh, I'm the Sugarplum Fairy.

I wonder both how she's going to play this, and how she will sleep at night.

This defense is what I posted about last month. Guy I know casually told me his daughter (worked at Yogis) told LE that DM was def in Yogis that night Hannah was killed. To put it in perspective, Hannah lived right around the corner from Yogis. DM knew where she lived.

This guy was saying ...that people were saying he's going to say someone drugged him! And while he was out of it, these supposed people or person killed Hannah.

Really, what stops any killer from saying this nonsense? I'm very ready to believe someone else was in on it with him, but innocent victim? the unmitigated gall floors me.

Weirdly, JW lived right around the corner from Yogis too. Lauren had to have been there with him. Everyone including myself has focused on Kilroys, but Yogis might have come into play as well.

It could be that DM was on LE's radar all along. after Lauren disappeared. If there is any kind of LE eff up, this could be it.

According to this public defender, DM is innocent victim. Then, who had his car, and how did he get it back?

He has narked on someone, that's for sure, IMO. IMO, JMW

 

[katydid23]

@imkeylime yeah, that girl came off as jaw-droppingly insensitive and I have no doubt she will regret having that little sound byte preserved on film and viewed across the country. I can only hope she never has to experience firsthand the pain that the Spierer's have been living through.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Agreed. I wonder if she would feel the same way if SHE went missing. Would she want everyone to 'let it go' and move on, without trying to find her or solve the case/

 

[Matic]

http://www.wbiw.com/local/archive/2016/08/defense-claims-daniel-messel-is-innocent-victim.php

Wow, Just wow.

 

[Yeahbabs]

I'm curious to hear what an attorney thinks about all this....we have a couple in here, right?

Does the defense have any reason to present such a detailed alternate hypothesis as to what happened? It seems to me like DM's attorney doesn't have any intention of presenting another scenario, but instead she just wants to poke holes in the prosecution's theory/evidence to create a shadow of a doubt. In other words, to convince a jury of something specific (like DM being drugged or whatever) would be pretty difficult without presenting any corroborating evidence, but to convince a jury that maybe something (anything) other than EXACTLY what the prosecution is depicting could have happened would be much easier.

I also want to add that I mentioned up thread that HW's family believes this public defender to be incompetent, etc. BUT personally I think she's pretty impressive. Apparently she's not some randomly appointed public defender but has a private criminal defense practice in Indy and participates in a program where defense attorneys volunteer to be public defenders in small towns. This information is coming from the tweets of @becca_costello from Indianapolis Public Media. I checked out the first part (her firm's website is maryanlaw.com) but can't say for sure about the second.

I'm also concerned about the defense's request on Friday for a mistrial. Clearly nothing happened in the parking lot that would have compromised this case in any way, but it seems like they're at least setting up grounds for an appeal.

Another lawyer question...apparently the jury was instructed not to consider DM's vehicle to be evidence. What??? Is that because, since it was off site it cannot be properly exhibited as evidence or what? And are they supposed to then disregard any observations they made when viewing the vehicle?

 

[Yeahbabs]

Another thing....let's talk about the effing cigarette. Has anyone seen any pictures of the cigarette butt in evidence?

And has anyone seen the pic of HW's pack of cigarettes found between her mattress and box spring? It seems like the defense is trying to imply significance (like HW was just chillin with DM, smoking cigarettes on Plum Road?!) in the butt not being tested.

So I'm curious to know if anyone has seen either of these things and can say anything like, "HW's kind had a white filter and the other one was brown." Or, "HW's were the super skinny kind and the butt was normal."

 

[Yeahbabs]

One other thing (I'm on a roll!) - is the witness list able to be viewed at all?

Curious about the possible JMW theories, the idea of DM narcing, etc. The witness list might give us some idea of what's to come.