IN IN - Renee Bruhl, Patricia Blough & Ann Miller, Indiana Dunes SP, 2 July 1966

[TedMac]

I have gone through the entire thread looking for information on the case.
I do not necessarily accept that the girls willingly got into a small boat and left for a number of reasons.

First, women do not leave their belongings behind, particularly wallets, car keys, and personal effects. Especially on a crowded beach with none of their friends left behind to watch over things. Secondly, a 14-16 foot boat on Lake Michigan is very teacherous because the waves would swamp a boat that size fairly easily. The only explanations I can come up with that mitigates this line of reasoning is that perhaps the boater told the girls he would take them for a quick spin of a few minutes near shore and drop them back off.

The abortion angle makes no sense either.
Recovery from abortions can be devastaing and at best require several hours of rest for the woman.
They certainly could not get back into the water after an abortion, so the fact that they wore bikini's with no change of clothing and no alternative way to get back to the beach rules that out.

The fact that they would have gotten into a boat to be taken to another boat is illogical. Had they wanted an abortion, they could have simply gone to the abortionists facility, where sanitation would be much easier to maintain.

These girls were most likely kidnapped for nefarious reasons.
My guess is White Slavery or human traffiking if you will.

The only way the boat could factor into the case is if either to girls had pre-arranged to meet the guy in the boat, or the guy in the boat was looking for females in the water to lure into his craft. How else would they "find each other" on a crowded beach with probably several hundred swimmers in the water?

It is known that White slave sex rings operated in that area all the way back to 1948 according to this article.
http://archives.chicagotribune.com/...cle/white-slavery-suspects-held-in-2-000-bond

A likely scenario would have the "good looking guy" in the boat pick out potential female victims among the swimmers and attempt to befriend them and gain their trust. Ultimately, he would have lured them into the boat with the promise of a quick run around the beach.
Instead, he easily could have controlled them at gunpoint and likely took them to the Gary, Hammond, Cal City area where they were held captive.

That area was nororious for crime going back to the Capone days where he ran vice operations throughout those cities.

The alternative is that no boat was involved at all, and they were somehow taken captive on a busy beach.

At the very least its a working hypothesis to start with.

Edited to add....
After thinking about this for few moments, I recall boating in that area with my BIL in 1971. He owned a boat that docked in Michigan City.
I don't remember exactly where this was but there was a crowded beach that had a bar where you could buy beer and alcohol. I swam into shore, bought a six-pack and swam back out to the boat.. could this guy have done the same, talking to the girls in the process?

I just don't remember if it was the Indiana Dunes or not.

Hi GT. It is good to see you involved into this case in addition to the Grimes sisters. I've wondered about the "Boat Theory" as well. I felt that all of this (boat, guy in mid-20s, etc) was all prearranged as you wrote above. I think the girls thought they were going for a brief ride around the immediate area and would be back in less than 30 minutes. After that, who knows?

 

[Gunther Toody]

Hi GT. It is good to see you involved into this case in addition to the Grimes sisters. I've wondered about the "Boat Theory" as well. I felt that all of this (boat, guy in mid-20s, etc) was all prearranged as you wrote above. I think the girls thought they were going for a brief ride around the immediate area and would be back in less than 30 minutes. After that, who knows?

Thanks
One of Dick Wylie's theories was that Frank and Helen Largo, the abortionists, lived in the same town where the bar was located that the girls hung out at and it was nephew Ralph Largo who was the boat guy. I have tried to locate historic boat registration information but could find none.

I believe the city was Hodgkins, IL according to the article about Wylie's investigation. His theory went on that Frank and Helen had a place in Gary, IN. where they performed the abortions. Even so, I just don't buy the abortion angle at all. These were girls from well-to-do families, so an abortion could have been arranged and hushed up pretty easily.

The sixties were not the fifties, where girls were sent away to have babies out of wedlock. It was fairly commonplace if I recall. Open sex was rampant, the Hippies were everywhere, protestors ruled the campuses, and Vietnam was going strong.

The thought of backroom abortions down dark alleys just doesn't resonate with me.

 

[TedMac]

Thanks
One of Dick Wylie's theories was that Frank and Helen Largo, the abortionists, lived in the same town where the bar was located that the girls hung out at and it was nephew Ralph Largo who was the boat guy. I have tried to locate historic boat registration information but could find none.

I believe the city was Hodgkins, IL according to the article about Wylie's investigation. His theory went on that Frank and Helen had a place in Gary, IN. where they performed the abortions. Even so, I just don't buy the abortion angle at all. These were girls from well-to-do families, so an abortion could have been arranged and hushed up pretty easily.

The sixties were not the fifties, where girls were sent away to have babies out of wedlock. It was fairly commonplace if I recall. Open sex was rampant, the Hippies were everywhere, protestors ruled the campuses, and Vietnam was going strong.

The thought of backroom abortions down dark alleys just doesn't resonate with me.

BBM

I agree. I haven't put much stock in the abortion angle either. After reading Patty's brother's posts (Robb2014), I really believe that all 3 girls left on the small boat following a prearranged meeting expecting to return to the beach within 30 minutes or so. Sadly, I feel the "flash of light" that was seen just out sight from the beach was the boat exploding, probably with the girls either dead or bound and gagged and still on board. My best guess for the motive for the killings was Patty had seen one of Silas Jayne's associates plant a car bomb and she had to be eliminated. Unfortunately, the other two girls were nothing more than collateral damage. From her conversations with Robb, Patty knew she was in trouble and likely to either be killed or go into hiding. Also, the owner of the small boat filed an insurance claim for the boat not long after the girls disappeared.

 

[Gunther Toody]

I have read the claim of Jayne's involvement as well, allegedly due to Patty possibly having knowledge of Cheryl Rude's murder.
That happened a year earlier than thier disappearance, why would he wait so long and go to such extremes as having potentially thousands of witnesses see them leaving the beach?

Silas Jayne could have had them killed quite easily if he wanted to. Jayne was deep in the mob, with connections like "Mad Sam" DeStefano, who used to ride at his stables, and the Spilotro brothers from Chicago's South side. DeStefano, murdered his own brother because Sam Giancana had ordered the hit. It would be no great thing to take out a few teenage girls. The only possibility of Jayne's involvement is the claim that he told a local Sheriff he had the girls buried under his porch.

On the surface, that makes no sense since it is very incriminating, but the location was never searched because the sheriff died of a "farming accident" and no other search was made, which in itself is puzzling.

Small boats with outboards don't typically explode, at least I've never heard of one. Unless of course there was a bomb on board.
Explosions on boats are generally due to built-up vapor, which might happen in an engine compartment of an inboard, but very unlikely on an outboard.

Edited to add the following...

Apparently, a lifeguard on duty at the beach, not only saw the girls get into a boat, but cautioned one of the girls about her feet dangling off the side.
This can be read in this article found in the Milwaukee Sentinel dated July 7, 1966
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=GXhQAAAAIBAJ&sjid=VBEEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6332,1435584

In this article from the Chicago Tribune dated July 2, 1970...Det. Sgt. Ed Burke claims that both Ann Miller and PAtty Blough had never gone home the night before they disappeared.
http://archives.chicagotribune.com/...rticle/cop-believes-3-disappeared-voluntarily

The lifeguard coroborated the claims of a White tri-hull with blue interior.

Witnesses also claim that the boat headed East toward Michigan City, IN and not toward Chicago.

Here is a typical tri-hull from the era.

 

[TedMac]

I have read the claim of Jayne's involvement as well, allegedly due to Patty possibly having knowledge of Cheryl Rude's murder.
That happened a year earlier than thier disappearance, why would he wait so long and go to such extremes as having potentially thousands of witnesses see them leaving the beach?

Silas Jayne could have had them killed quite easily if he wanted to. Jayne was deep in the mob, with connections like "Mad Sam" DeStefano, who used to ride at his stables, and the Spilotro brothers from Chicago's South side. DeStefano, murdered his own brother because Sam Giancana had ordered the hit. It would be no great thing to take out a few teenage girls. The only possibility of Jayne's involvement is the claim that he told a local Sheriff he had the girls buried under his porch.

On the surface, that makes no sense since it is very incriminating, but the location was never searched because the sheriff died of a "farming accident" and no other search was made, which in itself is puzzling.

Small boats with outboards don't typically explode, at least I've never heard of one. Unless of course there was a bomb on board.
Explosions on boats are generally due to built-up vapor, which might happen in an engine compartment of an inboard, but very unlikely on an outboard.

Edited to add the following...

Apparently, a lifeguard on duty at the beach, not only saw the girls get into a boat, but cautioned one of the girls about her feet dangling off the side.
This can be read in this article found in the Milwaukee Sentinel dated July 7, 1966
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=GXhQAAAAIBAJ&sjid=VBEEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6332,1435584

In this article from the Chicago Tribune dated July 2, 1970...Det. Sgt. Ed Burke claims that both Ann Miller and PAtty Blough had never gone home the night before they disappeared.
http://archives.chicagotribune.com/...rticle/cop-believes-3-disappeared-voluntarily

The lifeguard coroborated the claims of a White tri-hull with blue interior.

Witnesses also claim that the boat headed East toward Michigan City, IN and not toward Chicago.

Here is a typical tri-hull from the era.

View attachment 63144

BBM I don't believe it was Silas Jayne that killed them, but rather it was one of his associates. He was neck deep in the mob, but he had plenty of his cronies that were around him that had their own criminal agendas. I don't think it was Silas that was in the boat that met them, but instead it was one of his low level mules. I don't think Jayne would risk showing up at the beach with all the people around. Plus, the guy in the boat was described as being in his mid-20s and Silas was much older by then. The guy in the boat may have been executed with the girls for all we know.

Patty rode for Silas's brother George who was Silas's sworn enemy. That alone would have put her at odds with Silas's group. And as Cheryl Rude tragically found out, you didn't live long when that was the case.

You are certainly correct that small outboard boats don't normally blow. But as Robb said in his post, Silas had people in his organization that knew how to use dynamite. That could have blown the boat into tiny pieces leaving very debris.

I believe the girls were killed that afternoon in the lake and not buried under Silas's house. I don't think Silas would have told the Sheriff that if it was true.

I'm not sure Silas & Co. were immediately aware that Patty had seen the bomb planted in the care that killed Rude. From what I have gathered from reading the news articles, they didn't become aware of this until several months later.

I believe the other two girls were killed because (1) they were in the wrong place at the wrong time or because the killers felt that Patty may have shared her knowledge of Rude's killing with them.

MOO

 

[Cincinnati Kid]

In all respect to each and every theory that has been offered, I still question why an assailant would plan to use the beach of a state park to pick up those who were going to be killed. Some may note that Ted Bundy did this, but the difference was his victims from all indications seemed to be random and not planned in advance. I also discount the abortion angle for this same reason. I'm not sure if it is completely clear as to how many men were on board the boat that the women were last seen on.

I still don't understand why the three women would have left their purses and other belongings behind. Even if they felt they would only be on the boat for a few minutes, it stumps me as to why they would have done that. I certainly don't feel it was the way things were done then (1966).

 

[TedMac]

In all respect to each and every theory that has been offered, I still question why an assailant would plan to use the beach of a state park to pick up those who were going to be killed. Some may note that Ted Bundy did this, but the difference was his victims from all indications seemed to be random and not planned in advance. I also discount the abortion angle for this same reason. I'm not sure if it is completely clear as to how many men were on board the boat that the women were last seen on.

I still don't understand why the three women would have left their purses and other belongings behind. Even if they felt they would only be on the boat for a few minutes, it stumps me as to why they would have done that. I certainly don't feel it was the way things were done then (1966).

BBM The part about the purses is puzzling. Possibly, they asked someone sitting near them to keep an eye on them while they went out for 30 or so minutes? I haven't heard of anyone claiming they did this, but it is a possibility.

I think the meeting with the "20ish" guy in the boat was prearranged between one of the girls and whoever did them in. I'm not certain what the girls planned to do on the boat. Maybe it was something as simple as a short boat ride as part of their fun day at the beach. The girls may have been planning to spend the day at the beach and told whoever contacted them to simply meet them there. They probably planned to spend the rest of the day at the beach once they returned from their excursion on the boat. The guy in the boat may not have known the girls were going to be killed and didn't mind being seen in public with them. He could have been told by someone in the Jayne organization to simply meet the girls at the beach and bring them to perhaps a larger boat or somewhere else?

All of this is MOO.

 

[Dragonfyree]

I think meeting them on a busy holiday weekend at the beach doesn't make sense if it's a pre-planned killing. If they were only going to kill one girl, it would be easier to get her while she was alone. If you think she told the other two something so you needed to get rid of all three, how do you know she hadn't told a lot of other people, like parents, siblings?

I also think this is too elaborate for an abortion.

In my previous replies, my theory is that it was similar to Ted Bundy, they just happened to come across a couple of killers on the beach. I think it was probably two guys. They may have watched them, heard them talking, learned their names and when one went off - to the bathroom or to get something to eat or drink, they waylaid her and one them went back and told the other two that their friend was sick and needed them right away. That could be why they left everything behind, they would be in a hurry to get to her and would think they would be coming back.

And if they had a gun it would be even easier to get them into a car.

I think Silas Jayne has become like a boogeyman where we want to assign every weird death to him. Similar to Ted Bundy and the Zodiac Killer where every unsolved murder in their vicinity wants to be linked to them.

 

[TedMac]

g I think meeting them on a busy holiday weekend at the beach doesn't make sense if it's a pre-planned killing. If they were only goin kill one girl, it would be easier to get her while she was alone. If you think she told the other two something so you needed to get rid of all three, how do you know she hadn't told a lot of other people, like parents, siblings?

I also think this is too elaborate for an abortion.

In my previous replies, my theory is that it was similar to Ted Bundy, they just happened to come across a couple of killers on the beach. I think it was probably two guys. They may have watched them, heard them talking, learned their names and when one went off - to the bathroom or to get something to eat or drink, they waylaid her and one them went back and told the other two that their friend was sick and needed them right away. That could be why they left everything behind, they would be in a hurry to get to her and would think they would be coming back.

And if they had a gun it would be even easier to get them into a car.

I think Silas Jayne has become like a boogeyman where we want to assign every weird death to him. Similar to Ted Bundy and the Zodiac Killer where every unsolved murder in their vicinity wants to be linked to them.

BBM Actually meeting them at the beach is a good idea, if you are not the killer. If the guy in the boat did nothing but transport the three girls somewhere, then the killer or killers would not have been seen at the beach with them.

I think the other two girls were killed simply because they were with Patty at the beach.

The lifeguard and several other people saw the girls get on to the boat.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...6332,1435584

 

[Dragonfyree]

BBM Actually meeting them at the beach is a good idea, if you are not the killer. If the guy in the boat did nothing but transport the three girls somewhere, then the killer or killers would not have been seen at the beach with them.

I think the other two girls were killed simply because they were with Patty at the beach.

The lifeguard and several other people saw the girls get on to the boat.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...6332,1435584

Would the guy in the boat be in on it? If so how could he guarantee that the girls would get in his boat. If the one girl was pregnant as many say, wouldn't there be a good chance she might get seasick and wouldn't want to get on the boat.

If it's someone they knew and was pre-arranged, how would they know the girls didn't tell someone else? "We're meeting Joe and he's giving us a ride in his boat.

Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unrealiable. Thousands of people at this beach and they identify someone they only had glimpses at, and did not know, but were able to identify them days later? Plus if you look at women from the mid 60's, including these three women, they all look a lot alike. Same bouffont hairdo's, dress similarly. There isn't anything extraordinary about these women that would make them that memorable.

 

[TedMac]

Would the guy in the boat be in on it? If so how could he guarantee that the girls would get in his boat. If the one girl was pregnant as many say, wouldn't there be a good chance she might get seasick and wouldn't want to get on the boat.

If it's someone they knew and was pre-arranged, how would they know the girls didn't tell someone else? "We're meeting Joe and he's giving us a ride in his boat.

Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unrealiable. Thousands of people at this beach and they identify someone they only had glimpses at, and did not know, but were able to identify them days later? Plus if you look at women from the mid 60's, including these three women, they all look a lot alike. Same bouffont hairdo's, dress similarly. There isn't anything extraordinary about these women that would make them that memorable.

BBM He may or may not have been on it. My guess he had probably seen at least one of them previously, so he likely knew what they looked like. I'm not sure how he would know if they would get on the boat or not. Again, I think someone had contacted Patty and they agreed the girls would go on the boat ride.

I don't know that the girls wouldn't tell someone else about the boat ride. But, after they were killed they wouldn't tell anyone else about the bomb in the car.

Yes, some eyewitness testimony has been wrong. However, having worked in the criminal justice field for 37 years, I can tell you that it is accurate many times more than it is wrong.

All the women in the mid 60s look a lot alike? I was alive in the mid 1960s and I can't say that I agree with that. I don't recall ever getting my classmates, teachers, relatives, neighbors or any other group of girls/women confused with each other!

 

[Gunther Toody]

I'm 50/50 on whether a boat was involved or not. On one hand, 8 people allegedly stated that they saw the girls get into a boat, including a beach lifeguard. Those of us in LE know how unreliable witnesses are and even though they have a sincere desire to help, you will rarely get two who tell the same story. On the other hand, if no boat was involved, how do you kidnap 3 girls on a beach with over 9,000 other people there?

You would have to create a ruse to isolate them.

Having gone to such beaches as a kid during that era, I remember first hand that even the parking lots had people coming and going all the time.

Here is how the site looks today.



I don't know if it has changed since the time the girls disappeared.

 

[Cincinnati Kid]

I, too, disagree that women in the 1960's all looked alike. I was also there and can speak to it first-hand. The recent discussions here seem to open up the thought that the three women could have left the beach area by some other means than a boat. If you think about it and since this was a beach area for swimming, wouldn't there have been some kind of restrictions on boats coming in close? Of course, based on witness testimony, there obviously was at least one boat there during the time in question that day. However, a predator (or predators) may have considered the attention arriving on a boat to pick up possible victims may have gotten. A car, van, etc. would have blended in well with the hundreds of others already there and could have served as the vehicle to leave the area with little, if any, attention.

Some very good ideas and insight has been provided on this on-going mystery. Unfortunately, it comes decades after it took place. As such, the memories of witnesses, if still living, may grow dimmer. I doubt few and possibly none of the law enforcement officials who investigated this case might still be on the job. So you wonder what has happened to the files and where any evidence (like the home movie which supposedly shows the boat in question) is kept and who has access to it?

 

[STANDREID]

I don't think the women would leave their stuff to go for a boat ride because their belongings would be out of their sight for an indefinite amount of time. All three did leave the articles there however so we need to think of the reasons they would do that. The most obvious would be to go into the water but what else? Would they all go to the restroom or a concession stand together or back to the car to get something as a group? Possible but it doesn't seem too likely to me. Would they all go back to the vehicle together if someone came to them with a story that the car had been hit or broken into? I suppose one could have left then the other two went looking for her when she failed to return in a reasonable amount of time. There are a lot of choices but none seem particularly good to me.

 

[dogperson]

I don't think the women would leave their stuff to go for a boat ride because their belongings would be out of their sight for an indefinite amount of time. All three did leave the articles there however so we need to think of the reasons they would do that. The most obvious would be to go into the water but what else? Would they all go to the restroom or a concession stand together or back to the car to get something as a group? Possible but it doesn't seem too likely to me. Would they all go back to the vehicle together if someone came to them with a story that the car had been hit or broken into? I suppose one could have left then the other two went looking for her when she failed to return in a reasonable amount of time. There are a lot of choices but none seem particularly good to me.

I have always thought that was so odd, them leaving their belongings to get on a boat. Unless they were made to do so under duress it seems like a strange thing for the women to do. At the beach I will leave my tote bag and book with my chair, just long enough to go in the water, but I wouldn't leave them to go get food or use the restroom. The only other reason I can think of is if this was a staged disappearance and they intended to leave their belongings to be found.

 

[Dragonfyree]

I don't mean that all women from the '60 look alike. I mean that at a specific time, sometimes in a specific area, there is a fashion that is being followed. Think the Farrah Fawcett look of the '70's, Big Hair in the 80's and the Jennifer Aniston look of the 90's.

From the pictures I've seen of the three ladies, from the Charley Project, they all appear to have had short dark bouffont style of hair. I'm thinking if it's what was in fashion at the time, there were probably thousands of women at the beach with the same hairdo and since it was a beach, everyone was probably wearing similar type of clothing, which to me makes it unlikely that someone glimpsing women they don't know for a few seconds in unremarkable circumstances would then be able to identify the three women days later.

I was watching the new A Crime To Remember which this week was about the Kitty Genovese case. When they questioned the eye witnesses - who were watching a woman being attacked, (Which you would think was so out of the ordinary that they were paying close attention) they couldn't even agree on if the killer was black or white.

A planned disappearance seems odd as they didn't take anything with them. No money, no transportation and it doesn't appear that all three would have a reason to disappear, and after all this time, Silas James is dead, why would they not have contacted families, they could tell them that it couldn't go any further that they were still alive. I don't think you have to tell the police when a missing person shows back up.

For all we know one of them may have been in contact with their family. Anyone know if any of them have stopped co-operating or talking to the police?

 

[Gunther Toody]

I don't think the women would leave their stuff to go for a boat ride because their belongings would be out of their sight for an indefinite amount of time. All three did leave the articles there however so we need to think of the reasons they would do that. The most obvious would be to go into the water but what else? Would they all go to the restroom or a concession stand together or back to the car to get something as a group? Possible but it doesn't seem too likely to me. Would they all go back to the vehicle together if someone came to them with a story that the car had been hit or broken into? I suppose one could have left then the other two went looking for her when she failed to return in a reasonable amount of time. There are a lot of choices but none seem particularly good to me.

I think we can safely rule out the concession stand...
They left their money on the blanket. Unless they met guys who offered to buy them something.
Restrooms? Maybe but it was still a crowded beach with people using the restroom constantly.
Back to the car? No reason unless they wanted to sneak a drink of booze or some pot.

That pretty much leaves going on a boat or drowning outright.
We know they didn't drown because there were no bodies.

So it was the boat or????

 

[Dragonfyree]

I think we can safely rule out the concession stand...
They left their money on the blanket. Unless they met guys who offered to buy them something.
Restrooms? Maybe but it was still a crowded beach with people using the restroom constantly.
Back to the car? No reason unless they wanted to sneak a drink of booze or some pot.

We don't know all their money was left on the beach. They could have taken only what they thought they would need to the concession stand. Remember you could get a bottle of coke for 10 or 15 cents at that time.

Restrooms are crowded because people are using them, so we can't assume they weren't.

Guys paying for them is possible, but that wouldn't explain why they left everything behind, that would more of the guys buying and bringing it back to them scenario, not them going off with the guys.

I think the car keys were left on the beach, so it wouldn't appear they went back to the car.

I meant Silas Jayne in my earlier post, not Silas James.

 

[Cincinnati Kid]

So it was the boat or????

Another car or vehicle of some kind is possible. The women could have been invited there (perhaps even separately) then, willingly or not willingly, driven from the beach location.

With regards to the use of a boat (and I noted this in a post on November 13), as this was a beach area and from all indications set up for swimming, wouldn't boats have been prohibited there at least close enough to be near people in the water? Wouldn't one being in close have gotten attention from swimmers, people on the beach, life guards, etc.?

 

[Gunther Toody]

Another car or vehicle of some kind is possible. The women could have been invited there (perhaps even separately) then, willingly or not willingly, driven from the beach location.

With regards to the use of a boat (and I noted this in a post on November 13), as this was a beach area and from all indications set up for swimming, wouldn't boats have been prohibited there at least close enough to be near people in the water? Wouldn't one being in close have gotten attention from swimmers, people on the beach, life guards, etc.?

I think you are right...
But I remember doing exactly that, and the more I think about it..it was at the same dunes.

Here's the story.
My brother in law and wife were living in Michigan City, IN which is just a few miles from the Indiana Dunes State Park.
He purchased a 20' boat and called me to go boating with him one day. We left the harbor at Michigan City and headed West for a few miles. After a few miles, we came across what looked like a concession stand on a beach and he told me they served alcohol. He pulled near the swimmers and I dove in and swam to shore and bought a six-pack. After which, I swam back out to the boat. It wasn't very far since I am just an average swimmer.
The more I think about it....it had to be the Indiana Dunes we were at, because there is no other public facility in that area.
My experience occurred in 1973, so I guess it might have been a fairly common occurrence?

Maybe "boat guy" did the exact same thing I did and just began talking to the girls offering them a quick ride.
Had he encountered them at the concession stand, he may have simply said "leave your stuff--we'll be right back" after offering them a ride.

I am having a hard time generating leads on this case and I don't want to bother family members unless I have something going in.
I had hoped that Robb would have posted again so we could have began an exchange with him.