In the trunk 2.6 days Decomp Info #1

in all likelihood the body is closer to home -
Bev/ I agree.........
She told GA the baby was 'close'
thanks for explaining things to me
 
My apologies if already covered, and maybe more approriate in decomp thread...

Still...if a water disposal was involved, can anyone summarize the basics on a body surfacing? IIRC, this occurred in the Peterson case.

I suspect, if the body is tied to a weight to keep it submerged doesn't this loosen and detach as the tissue decays away after bloating? Time for this to occur?

If a body is totally encased in something (e.g. suitcase) with weight contained within, does this provide more assurance it will stay submerged until the construction material decompose as well?

All of the rising and falling water levels over the last couple of months would have encouraged a water disposed body to surface, wouldn't it?

TIA!
 
You're welcome Passionflower. This notion that she got rid of the body the day she texted Amy (or called, I can't remember) about getting rid of the odour on a certain day and basing an entire search around that is ridiculous - she lied about everything, why should she be telling the truth about that? In fact, the odour was getting worse and worse.

BJB - glad you'e here! I was just wondering where you were lately! As to a body surfacing, it really depends on how and where it was submerged. In the Peterson case there were probably several reasons the bodies surfaced even though he weighed it down - there was major fish eating activity, the body exploded expelling the fetus and strong currents. Then of course it depends on what kind of water, the bacterial and ph level of the water, the temperature of the water, whether it freezes or stays relatively warm - there are as many factors as there are in any kind of corpse disposal.
 
You're welcome Passionflower. This notion that she got rid of the body the day she texted Amy (or called, I can't remember) about getting rid of the odour on a certain day and basing an entire search around that is ridiculous - she lied about everything, why should she be telling the truth about that? In fact, the odour was getting worse and worse.

BJB - glad you'e here! I was just wondering where you were lately! As to a body surfacing, it really depends on how and where it was submerged. In the Peterson case there were probably several reasons the bodies surfaced even though he weighed it down - there was major fish eating activity, the body exploded expelling the fetus and strong currents. Then of course it depends on what kind of water, the bacterial and ph level of the water, the temperature of the water, whether it freezes or stays relatively warm - there are as many factors as there are in any kind of corpse disposal.

Thanks, Bev. I appreciate your sharing of your time and expertise here - always interesting and informative. IIRC, in general, water disposal slows the rate of decomp vs. a surface disposal, with a burial disposal falling somewhere in between the two. However, as you mention, with so many other factors involved the comparison of the rates are only general comparisons. Is this in the ballpark?

Hafta go ask some cadaver dog questions now...
 
My apologies if already covered, and maybe more approriate in decomp thread...

Still...if a water disposal was involved, can anyone summarize the basics on a body surfacing? IIRC, this occurred in the Peterson case.

I suspect, if the body is tied to a weight to keep it submerged doesn't this loosen and detach as the tissue decays away after bloating? Time for this to occur?

If a body is totally encased in something (e.g. suitcase) with weight contained within, does this provide more assurance it will stay submerged until the construction material decompose as well?

All of the rising and falling water levels over the last couple of months would have encouraged a water disposed body to surface, wouldn't it?

TIA!

Just to sink the body, some factors need to be considered, such as how the body is positioned. If it is 'up and down', then the density of the body assists additional weights in overcoming the buoyancy issue. It is the density of an object, not its weight that determines displacement of the surrounding liquid.

When you lay the body out flat, horizontally, the density factor is decreased as the same amount of weight is spread over more area. This causes a body to float easier because buoyancy is helping to raise it up.

Anyone who doubts this can easily can test the theory (please, without weights attached). Step into a swimming pool feet first in a depth over your head, and you will sink beneath the water (without using either your arms or legs to introduce “propulsion” into the equation). Then lay out flat in the same pool, and you will float.

This is not because you have air in your lungs and a deceased person doesn't, because even when you stepped into the pool feet first, you still had air in your lungs. This is not because you weigh more standing up than you do lying down, because you weigh the same in either situation.

Regarding buoyancy in general, Archimedes Principle says: "Any object, wholly or partly immersed in a fluid, is buoyed up by a force equal to the weight of the fluid displaced by the object." Repeat: Any object, wholly or partly immersed in a fluid, is buoyed up by a FORCE equal to the WEIGHT of the FLUID displaced by the OBJECT.

Upward FORCE = Weight of the Fluid

The fluid in this case is water. The weight of water is 62.4 lbs per cubic foot, or 8.5 lbs per gallon.

The object in this case is the body. A human body typically (size and shapes vary) will displace 1.5 cu. ft. of water in a vertical position and 4 to 5 cu. ft. of water in a horizontal position.

So back to our previous experiment: if you weigh 150 lbs -- you refenced the Peterson case and this was Laci Peterson's weight -- and step into the water, displacing 1.5 cu. ft. of water when you do, you will be buoyed upwards 93.6 lbs. Since you weigh 150 lbs, you then subtract 93.6 from 150 to obtain a negative buoyancy of 56.4 lbs., meaning you sink.

If you were lying down and displacing 4 cu. ft. of water, your buoyancy factor increases. 62.4 * 4 = 249.6 - 150 = 99.6 lbs of positive buoyancy, meaning you float.

Given those simple physics as calculated, it would take roughly 50 lbs of weight to cause a person to sink if they were tied to their feet, and roughly 100 lbs to sink the same body if the weights were divided and were tied to each of the 4 limbs and the body was horizontal.

Now advance time and decomposition into the equation. As internal gases expand within the decomposing body, the buoyancy factor will increase requiring more weight to hold the body down. A body is known to bloat to over 3 times its normal size, so now the displacement factor is not 4 cu. ft, but 12 cu. ft. [62.4 * 12] = 748.8. lbs

Obviously, Laci Peterson's body did not surface with 748.8 lbs of weight attached to her. But neither did it surface with the 30 lbs. of allegedly unaccounted for cement that Distaso suggested in his closing argument was what kept her down, which was a truly absurd proposition.


HTH
 
Let's look at the time interval in the forensic report again:

Post-mortem interval determinations in this instance are best carried out using volatile fatty acids (VFAs), but can be done in a crude fashion using inorganic elements. The 5:1 ratio of calcium:magnesium typically occurs at 90 Accumulated Degree Days (ADDs)...If one assumes it would be quite warm - Florida in the summer (~95 degrees F or 35 degrees C), this equates to approximately 2.6 days of decomposition.

Following are the average temperatures for the Orlando area during the dates of interest (from wunderground.com):

June 15, 2008 82 °F / 27 °C
June 16, 2008 81 °F / 27 °C
June 17, 2008 82 °F / 27 °C
June 18, 2008 82 °F / 27 °C
June 19, 2008 82 °F / 27 °C
June 20, 2008 83 °F / 28 °C
June 21, 2008 78 °F / 25 °C
June 22, 2008 78 °F / 25 °C
June 23, 2008 81 °F / 27 °C
June 24, 2008 82 °F / 27 °C
June 25, 2008 82 °F / 27 °C
June 26, 2008 80 °F / 26 °C
June 27, 2008 82 °F / 27 °C

Based on the above, 90 ADD approximates to 3.3 days.

Now let's look at the reporting stations closest to AL. I pick his residence because it is the one that Casey spends the most time at:

The location of the following station is Lat 28.560 / Lon -81.284 (2.5 mi S-SE of AL)

June 15, 2008 79.2 °F / 26.2 °C
June 16, 2008 73.4 °F / 23.0 °C
June 17, 2008 78.0 °F / 25.6 °C
June 18, 2008 76.1 °F / 24.5 °C
June 19, 2008 74.8 °F / 23.8 °C
June 20, 2008 75.2 °F / 24.0 °C
June 21, 2008 77.1 °F / 25.0 °C
June 22, 2008 79.9 °F / 26.6 °C
June 23, 2008 77.1 °F / 25.1 °C
June 24, 2008 75.1 °F / 24.0 °C
June 25, 2008 74.5 °F / 23.6 °C
June 26, 2008 72.0 °F / 22.2 °C
June 27, 2008 74.9 °F / 23.8 °C

Based on the above, 90 ADD approximates to 3.7 days.

The location of the following station is Lat 28.609 / Lon -81.314 (1.6 mi NW of AL)

June 15, 2008 79.1 °F / 26.2 °C
June 16, 2008 77.1 °F / 25.1 °C
June 17, 2008 81.4 °F / 27.4 °C
June 18, 2008 80.7 °F / 27.0 °C
June 19, 2008 79.6 °F / 26.4 °C
June 20, 2008 80.4 °F / 26.9 °C
June 21, 2008 77.5 °F / 25.3 °C
June 22, 2008 80.5 °F / 26.9 °C
June 23, 2008 80.9 °F / 27.2 °C
June 24, 2008 77.2 °F / 25.1 °C
June 25, 2008 75.5 °F / 24.2 °C
June 26, 2008 78.7 °F / 25.9 °C
June 27, 2008 80.6 °F / 27.0 °C

Based on the above, 90 ADD approximates to 3.4 days.

I will note that the trunk temperature could be greater - perhaps significantly - than the external temperature. This is because the car is always on asphalt, which can get much hotter during the day than ambient air, and will retain heat later into the evening than the air. This effect is influenced by the amount of sun, and the period in question experienced a fair amount of rain, indicating the skies were often overcast. In fact, the temperature plot from the stations indicate a sudden drop in temperature during the early afternoon most days, indicating a storm blowing through.

Because of this, I don't believe the trunk had a temperature significantly higher than the ambient air temperature.

Allowing for the trunk to be slightly warmer on average than the air, it appears that 3.0 to 3.5 days is the appropriate interval. There is always some margin of error in the figures, but I think 2 days on one end and 5 days on the other are beyond the margin of error. We should be focusing on 3 to 4 days as a plausible interval. I believe this would cover Caylee being in the trunk the entire time or spending most of the time buried in the grandparent's back yard.
 
From BB interview and Casey cell records:

June 17: At 2:30 pings begin originating from the area near the Anthony residence. This continues until 4:05 PM. The pattern of pings in the vicinity of the Anthony home suggest she left the house just before 4:00 PM and headed north. BB sees Casey back into the garage.

June 18: From 2:40 PM to 3:45 PM pings occur from the vicinity of the Anthony residence. This is consistent with the account of Casey borrowing a shovel from a neighbor.

June 19: There are no pings from her parent's that day. There is a 3+ hour gap in Casey pings late afternoon, the gap following a ping from the Lake Underhill area.

June 20 (~1:30 PM to 2:00 PM): Backs into parent's garage for third and final time.time.

My current take: On the 16th the baby dies in early to mid afternoon. and was in the trunk or is placed in the trunk by Casey. On the 17th Casey hides the body at her parents. On the 18th she tries to figure out if she should bury the child at her parents but instead puts the body back in the trunk and on the 19th drives her to the Lake Underhill area and discards her. On the 20th Casey returns to her parents to clean the trunk. This allows for slightly more than 3 days of decomposition.

However, enough of Caylee is left behind that a smell begins to form...
 
From BB interview and Casey cell records:

June 17: At 2:30 pings begin originating from the area near the Anthony residence. This continues until 4:05 PM. The pattern of pings in the vicinity of the Anthony home suggest she left the house just before 4:00 PM and headed north. BB sees Casey back into the garage.

June 18: From 2:40 PM to 3:45 PM pings occur from the vicinity of the Anthony residence. This is consistent with the account of Casey borrowing a shovel from a neighbor.

June 19: There are no pings from her parent's that day. There is a 3+ hour gap in Casey pings late afternoon, the gap following a ping from the Lake Underhill area.

June 20 (~1:30 PM to 2:00 PM): Backs into parent's garage for third and final time.time.

My current take: On the 16th the baby dies in early to mid afternoon. and was in the trunk or is placed in the trunk by Casey. On the 17th Casey hides the body at her parents. On the 18th she tries to figure out if she should bury the child at her parents but instead puts the body back in the trunk and on the 19th drives her to the Lake Underhill area and discards her. On the 20th Casey returns to her parents to clean the trunk. This allows for slightly more than 3 days of decomposition.

However, enough of Caylee is left behind that a smell begins to form...


I think on the 19th her and Tony go to a movie, not the night they rented movies, but went to a theater near the mall, it is in the receipts. That may be the phone off time period on the 19th. I do think she is cleaning the trunk on the 20th.

She is back at the house on the 23rd, seen with a guy in a green "truck", I think that is Tony and the jeep, he says he was there at some point to get gas and stayed outside. This is probably the day she takes George's gas cans. She must have been surprised to find George at home on the 24th.
 
The means temp for the week in question was 86F, not 95F as stated in the report, but the 95F was an estimate. It also rained on almost all those days.
 
Hi Bev, see my post just above. The means were anywhere from 24.4 C (76 F) to 26.7 C (81.2 F), depending on which station you use, or if you take a general average across Orlando. Using the 90 ADD in the forensic report, that works to 3.4 to 3.7 days. We might be able to assume the trunk was a little warmer than ambient (not a lot warmer because of rain and overcast conditions), so perhaps it works out to 3.0 to 3.3 days.

I think bottom line is the window is 3 to 4 days, no more or less.
 
It was mentioned early on that the trunk was noticeably clean... as in, only a small stain. I THINK this statement may have come from an interview with the tow yard guy that was there when the trunk was opened for the first time. If we are to assume it held a body, decomposing and rotting, there would be more than just a slight stain. Put that together with George claiming there was a container of 'cleaning fluids' in the garbage bag with the pizza.. this is the conclusion of many, including me.
from everything i'm reading and hearing, Caylee was in the trunk decomposing for 2.6 days, when she was placed in an airtight container. Then as the days continued to go by the smell got worse and worse. KC tried various chemicals like cans of deoderant, gasoline, and perhaps chloroform. She complained to Amy that her dad ran over something and her car smelled bad. Finally, the smell got too bad to ignore or cover up anymore and she finally dumped the body. According to LP, she then texted Amy and told her she "got rid of the smell." On the 18th, when she borrowed a shovel, (how stupid is that) she placed Caylee's body next to her playhouse, and went in search of place to bury her, moving the container next to the house and digging there. She discovered it was simply too much work, or not a good idea, and decided to put her in a container instead, and back into the trunk, where she ignored her until the smell had to be dealt with. This is amazing to me that she would periodically go to the trunk and spray it with deoderant, or pour gasoline on the carpet.
The gp were out of town on the 18th til I'm not sure when they got back, and George found the shed broke into, and called the cops. KC had done it and used the gas to cover the smell, not fill her gas tank.
So far this is my theory. GA kept all the cars in a very clean condition, so it doesn't surprise me that the car and trunk were clean, even really clean.
jmo
 
is 2.6 days (I'll trust the Body Farm on this one) long enough for substantial fluids to be emitted from a body. Substantial enough to feed maggots(at least blow flys thought there was enough to feed another generation?)

Also, What do we know about blow flys and there tolerance to chloroform?
 
I've had time to research flies and chloroform.

Everything I'm seeing is that they don't telerate chloroform.

Here is an excerpt from FAo_Org on how to kill flies.

8.3.1 Killing the flies If good specimens of tsetse flies are needed for a collection, the flies are best killed by a poison vapour, rather than by squeezing the thorax which may damage the specimen.

Ether, chloroform or ethyl acetate vapour may be used to kill the flies. Ethyl acetate is the best, and is safer to use than the other fluids. It can be obtained as a liquid from large chemists. It is inflammable, so take care.

http://www.fao.org/docrep/009/p5178e/P5178E09.htm

I'm having my doubts at this point that chloroform was used in anything but clean up or setup.
 
From BB interview and Casey cell records:

June 17: At 2:30 pings begin originating from the area near the Anthony residence. This continues until 4:05 PM. The pattern of pings in the vicinity of the Anthony home suggest she left the house just before 4:00 PM and headed north. BB sees Casey back into the garage.

June 18: From 2:40 PM to 3:45 PM pings occur from the vicinity of the Anthony residence. This is consistent with the account of Casey borrowing a shovel from a neighbor.

June 19: There are no pings from her parent's that day. There is a 3+ hour gap in Casey pings late afternoon, the gap following a ping from the Lake Underhill area.

June 20 (~1:30 PM to 2:00 PM): Backs into parent's garage for third and final time.time.

My current take: On the 16th the baby dies in early to mid afternoon. and was in the trunk or is placed in the trunk by Casey. On the 17th Casey hides the body at her parents. On the 18th she tries to figure out if she should bury the child at her parents but instead puts the body back in the trunk and on the 19th drives her to the Lake Underhill area and discards her. On the 20th Casey returns to her parents to clean the trunk. This allows for slightly more than 3 days of decomposition.

However, enough of Caylee is left behind that a smell begins to form...

Fantastic Post - well thought through and very well written. I am in 100% agreement with your timeline and events that took place.


smiley-dance1.gif
 
Hi Bev,

I read through your posts. Two key points of agreement:

You know, we're talking about someone who plans nothing - she lives her life day by day and has no plans for the future, that she planned a complicated murder scheme is out of character for her.

No doubt about it. We should not be looking at this as complicated or well-planned. It was probably an accident, she had a moment of panic and needed help (cell calls) but no one was there, so she placed the body in the trunk to avoid getting caught.

I believe that Texas Eqsh is going to go on a wild goose chase looking for "ping areas" near the airport...

I do not believe she is near the airport either - it is out of her comfort zone. I've been thinking Lake Underhill area due to that being the first ping after the three hour break, but ImpatientThread says there is a movie receipt from that time indicating she and Tony were at the movies. If that is the case, then I completely agree she is either very close to the Anthony's or was put into a nearby dumpster. I don't believe she buried the body. It had to be something short and simple, and unfortunately a dumpster disposal is the simplest.

Regarding the search, LP will be taking his orders on where to search from TM, who has been consulting with police as to where to search. No doubt police are way ahead of us on this, and I am guessing that they will focus their search on the areas we are triangulating on.

I also agree that there is no way Caylee was in the trunk 11 days. Even 5 days is a big stretch, if I understand the ADD measurement. 90/5 = 18C = 64.4 F. There is no way the average temperature of the trunk was that low over that period. The average ambient temperature was more than 10 degrees higher, and Casey never parked in a garage or carport - she always parked on asphalt exposed to the sun, which raises temps further. Three days seems right.

Your arguments about Caylee not being moved in and out of the trunk are persuasive. In fact, if we consider the "keep it simple" approach, it does not make sense for her to do that. I can imagine Casey backing into the garage on the 17th and 18th at her parent's house, opening the trunk, and pacing around mumbling "what do I do now...what do I do now??"
 
Bullet: "I'm having my doubts at this point that chloroform was used in anything but clean up..."

THANK YOU I've long believed chloroform was used on the trunk versus Caylee (it's a lonely club), either in hopes of destroying odor, dna etc. This is interesting info. But if it was used for pest control why not use ordinairy bug killer?
 
Hi Bev,

I read through your posts. Two key points of agreement:

You know, we're talking about someone who plans nothing - she lives her life day by day and has no plans for the future, that she planned a complicated murder scheme is out of character for her.

No doubt about it. We should not be looking at this as complicated or well-planned. It was probably an accident, she had a moment of panic and needed help (cell calls) but no one was there, so she placed the body in the trunk to avoid getting caught.

I believe that Texas Eqsh is going to go on a wild goose chase looking for "ping areas" near the airport...

I do not believe she is near the airport either - it is out of her comfort zone. I've been thinking Lake Underhill area due to that being the first ping after the three hour break, but ImpatientThread says there is a movie receipt from that time indicating she and Tony were at the movies. If that is the case, then I completely agree she is either very close to the Anthony's or was put into a nearby dumpster. I don't believe she buried the body. It had to be something short and simple, and unfortunately a dumpster disposal is the simplest.

Regarding the search, LP will be taking his orders on where to search from TM, who has been consulting with police as to where to search. No doubt police are way ahead of us on this, and I am guessing that they will focus their search on the areas we are triangulating on.

I also agree that there is no way Caylee was in the trunk 11 days. Even 5 days is a big stretch, if I understand the ADD measurement. 90/5 = 18C = 64.4 F. There is no way the average temperature of the trunk was that low over that period. The average ambient temperature was more than 10 degrees higher, and Casey never parked in a garage or carport - she always parked on asphalt exposed to the sun, which raises temps further. Three days seems right.

Your arguments about Caylee not being moved in and out of the trunk are persuasive. In fact, if we consider the "keep it simple" approach, it does not make sense for her to do that. I can imagine Casey backing into the garage on the 17th and 18th at her parent's house, opening the trunk, and pacing around mumbling "what do I do now...what do I do now??"

AND THANK YOU TOO JWG!! (bold mine) A voice of reason in the wilderness... have argued negligence from the start and posted myself that I believe her "comfort zone" would have been somewhere like Blanchard Park eg (although I'm clearly not as familiar w/ pings as you). While initially convinced she kept Caylee's remains in trunk for the entire 11 days, I've rethought this since confronted w/ report concluding "2.6 days." But there's still some confusion in my mind as to whether this represents the stage of decomp (while in trunk), or the period of time remains were in the trunk--have we cleared up this definitively? Thanks for sharing your ideas! JMO
 
JWG, I'm not trying to argue this point, I would like to pinpoint a day of disposal of the body. I don't understand how you arrived at the figure of 3 days.

1. the mean temp for accumulated degree days is the minimum temp + the maximum temp (celsius) / 2.
2. DDc = 5/9 and DDf = 9/5 (Ddc) Nine days farenheit is equal to five days celsius because a farenheit degree is smaller than a celsius degree. X (F) - 32 / 9 x 5 = C.
3. The report estimates the decomp at 2.6 days. It is based on the ratio of calcium to magnesium at 5 : 1 after 90 ADDs. What we don't know is the ratio of calcium to magnesium on the first day of decomp or the means temp of his 90 ADDs. (I do believe though, that these inorganic elements concentrate as they leach from the body.)

So my question is this - if the ratio of calcium to magnesium is 5 : 1 after 90 days and the means temp of those days is 33 Celsius while your means is 27 Celsius the difference is 4 days which would make it the 19th. If you use my means temp of 29 Celsius then the difference is 4.6 days which would make it the afternoon of the 20th. Everytime I calculate the numbers I still come up with 4 to 4.6 days.

(Of course I'm figuring the ratio of calcium to magnesium on the first day as 1 to .05 based on the percentage of body weight of calcium and magnesium. It could just as well be 100 : 1)
 

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