Israel Keyes: General Discussion

[LeneYael]

Yeah it is within that timeframe.

They might be the only couple to have disappeared within it, but there is also supposedly a couple that disappeared from Ellensburg while Keyes was active in the PNW.

I have no idea who these people are or when they disappeared though, it’s been mentioned in passing a couple times on TCBS but never explained.

Has anyone themselves heard or read where Ellensburg and couple could be mentioned? Outside of hearing it on TCBS that is. I haven’t found it anywhere, and would be thankful for further info!

 

[dub]

Has anyone themselves heard or read where Ellensburg and couple could be mentioned? Outside of hearing it on TCBS that is. I haven’t found it anywhere, and would be thankful for further info!

I’ve looked a bunch too and have come up with absolutely nothing.

My theory is they were migrant workers (which there are a lot of in the area) that got no press at all, and TCBS found something somewhere in their FOIA documents, but it’s just a guess.

Eta: this may also explain why TCBS hasn’t said much about it, they too may have extremely limited info on it at this point.

 

[a5adams]

I’ve looked a bunch too and have come up with absolutely nothing.

My theory is they were migrant workers (which there are a lot of in the area) that got no press at all, and TCBS found something somewhere in their FOIA documents, but it’s just a guess.

Eta: this may also explain why TCBS hasn’t said much about it, they too may have extremely limited info on it at this point.

So I watched the After-Show episode way back when and Josh and his team explained further about the Ellensburg situation. Someone close to the Keyes investigation has been in contact with Josh and mentioned this "Ellensburg couple" to him. Josh & Team have looked high and low to find any information on this couple but to no avail. This was back in 2022 so not sure if Josh got in contact with the investigator to ask more questions or if they themselves have found any info on the couple since then. Hopefully there will be an update someday!

 

[LeneYael]

I’ve looked a bunch too and have come up with absolutely nothing.

My theory is they were migrant workers (which there are a lot of in the area) that got no press at all, and TCBS found something somewhere in their FOIA documents, but it’s just a guess.

Eta: this may also explain why TCBS hasn’t said much about it, they too may have extremely limited info on it at this point.

Or, they have found that it was a nothingburger just like burgerkingguy.

 

[dub]

Or, they have found that it was a nothingburger just like burgerkingguy.

That’s possible, but I’m almost positive one of the mentions of the couple was in the preview for the current season, which suggests it’s something active and potentially real.

 

[ekardh]

That’s what I thought too at first.

TCBS has really changed my thinking on that case, maybe more than any other. Mostly because they explain very well how unlikely an accident scenario would have been, and how if that had been the case they would almost certainly have been found. And that there were potential Keyes sightings both at the site of the disappearance, and the day prior en route from his home to the site (although obviously these are not 100%.)

There are two episodes that focus heavily on Kami and Gene - s1 e7 and s5 e3. The sighting from the day prior is discussed in the most recent episode, s6 e4.

However much I might disagree on the latest stuff TCBS has come up with, I do think the case for Kami and Eugene being victims has been clear and well laid out. Keyes admitted to abducting a couple in this area. Their pictures were found on his computer; they are part of the ”NAMUS45”. A guy who was described as looking like Christian Longo was there, asking weird questions when K&E families were there searching for them. Look up what he looks like, a lot like a young Keyes. Keyes seems to have had a roundness to his face that disappeared with age that Longo also has, combined with prominent nose. The shoe that belonged to Eugene was really clean for having been in the elements (esp. the sea!) for days. I haven’t personally seen a picture of the found sneaker, but I’m going to look it up. IK says he killed someone by accident when he was ”just trying to take him out of action” by hitting them on the head with a shovel. This could have been Eugene. No other couple has disappeared that time, in that area. The Ellensburg couple has only been brought up in the TCBS podcast, I’ve never heard or read of them anywhere else. Only time Ellensburg has been mentioned was when they (fbi and keyes) were talking jurisdictions. Keyes asked if Ellensburg is west WA or east WA. They told him east WA and he replied ”well, you’re going to need both then!” This is the biggest reason I even thought about Lindsey Baum being victim. She was abducted in west WA and her partial remains were found in east WA, outside Ellensburg.

Thank you for elaborating.

All I would say to that is that we're relying on the word of a serial killer who thrived on playing with investigators. Who knows if the Washington couple he referred to ever existed? To that end, I would also question if the large gap of 2001-2005 was more mindgames. Likewise, the claim that he made one murder look like an accident. The Zodiac Killer did something similar when he claimed that he would change his MO to fool the authorities, when he was probably trying to take credit for murders that he didn't commit.

Kami and Eugene were exploring the coastline when a winter storm hit. They could have easily been hit by a sneaker wave and taken under, or one tried to rescue the other and both perished. Not quite without trace, as Eugene's shoe was recovered. However, that could have easily been left behind by a killer (like Keyes) as a red herring.

As for the NAMUS44, are we sure that they're on the list? I've looked up an archived page of the 44 and their names are not listed. I'm also uncertain how much of the list can be relied upon, as there were people on there who were 100% not victims of Keyes.

I've noticed people trying to link a lot of murder victims and missing people to Keyes. Not that I am denying that there may be more victims out there, but I believe there comes a point where he becomes a convenient solution for unresolved cases.

 

[dub]

Thank you for elaborating.

All I would say to that is that we're relying on the word of a serial killer who thrived on playing with investigators. Who knows if the Washington couple he referred to ever existed? To that end, I would also question if the large gap of 2001-2005 was more mindgames. Likewise, the claim that he made one murder look like an accident. The Zodiac Killer did something similar when he claimed that he would change his MO to fool the authorities, when he was probably trying to take credit for murders that he didn't commit.

Kami and Eugene were exploring the coastline when a winter storm hit. They could have easily been hit by a sneaker wave and taken under, or one tried to rescue the other and both perished. Not quite without trace, as Eugene's shoe was recovered. However, that could have easily been left behind by a killer (like Keyes) as a red herring.

As for the NAMUS44, are we sure that they're on the list? I've looked up an archived page of the 44 and their names are not listed. I'm also uncertain how much of the list can be relied upon, as there were people on there who were 100% not victims of Keyes.

I've noticed people trying to link a lot of murder victims and missing people to Keyes. Not that I am denying that there may be more victims out there, but I believe there comes a point where he becomes a convenient solution for unresolved cases.

They’re not on namus 45. Not sure where that came from.

Also I thought that the location Gene’s shoe was found was not in a place it would have been if he had gone into the ocean. I am definitely not certain of this though, I’d really like to know the exact location of the shoe.

Eta: also I don’t think Keyes ever really said he made a victim look like an accident, I think that’s a good example of the Keyes mythology you’re referencing. He said a victim was found and considered an accident, but as far as I know he never actually said he set it up to look like one. Likewise with the boating accident comments.

 

[LeneYael]

Thank you for elaborating.

All I would say to that is that we're relying on the word of a serial killer who thrived on playing with investigators. Who knows if the Washington couple he referred to ever existed? To that end, I would also question if the large gap of 2001-2005 was more mindgames. Likewise, the claim that he made one murder look like an accident. The Zodiac Killer did something similar when he claimed that he would change his MO to fool the authorities, when he was probably trying to take credit for murders that he didn't commit.

Kami and Eugene were exploring the coastline when a winter storm hit. They could have easily been hit by a sneaker wave and taken under, or one tried to rescue the other and both perished. Not quite without trace, as Eugene's shoe was recovered. However, that could have easily been left behind by a killer (like Keyes) as a red herring.

As for the NAMUS44, are we sure that they're on the list? I've looked up an archived page of the 44 and their names are not listed. I'm also uncertain how much of the list can be relied upon, as there were people on there who were 100% not victims of Keyes.

I've noticed people trying to link a lot of murder victims and missing people to Keyes. Not that I am denying that there may be more victims out there, but I believe there comes a point where he becomes a convenient solution for unresolved cases.

You’re right, they aren’t on NAMUS44/45! I have just meshed them in, in my head I guess. Not that I put much value on the whole NAMUS45. I think it’s more than likely just random pics.
Agree on that it’s hard to know if Keyes was lying, but he was consistent on the matter. I do believe he buried a couple in some valley in WA (I think) before he got the boat (which he got in 2005/2006). I really want to find that picture of Gene’s shoe now, really want to know if TCBS exaggerated that too to fit some narrative. If anyone here finds the pic, please link it!

 

[LeneYael]

They’re not on namus 45. Not sure where that came from.

Also I thought that the location Gene’s shoe was found was not in a place it would have been if he had gone into the ocean. I am definitely not certain of this though, I’d really like to know the exact location of the shoe.

Eta: also I don’t think Keyes ever really said he made a victim look like an accident, I think that’s a good example of the Keyes mythology you’re referencing. He said a victim was found and considered an accident, but as far as I know he never actually said he set it up to look like one. Likewise with the boating accident comments.

The NAMUS45 misinformation came from me, sorry. I’ve meshed them together with other possible victims, I wasn’t thinking. Sorry my bad.

 

[dub]

You’re right, they aren’t on NAMUS44/45! I have just meshed them in, in my head I guess. Not that I put much value on the whole NAMUS45. I think it’s more than likely just random pics.
Agree on that it’s hard to know if Keyes was lying, but he was consistent on the matter. I do believe he buried a couple in some valley in WA (I think) before he got the boat (which he got in 2005/2006). I really want to find that picture of Gene’s shoe now, really want to know if TCBS exaggerated that too to fit some narrative. If anyone here finds the pic, please link it!

To my knowledge, you’re right that Keyes said the couple were buried in a valley in WA.

I don’t believe he explicitly said that was before he bought his boat, but I do think he lumped it into the victims he spoke of that were between 01 and 05.

He bought the boat in April 05.

Also I am definitely in the camp that does attach quite a bit of significance to the namus 45. I don’t think there are many actual victims on it - it’s totally possible that besides the Curriers (and, I believe, Suzy Lyall) that there are none at all - but there are too many patterns in it for me to chalk up to coincidence or randomness.

 

[dub]

Speaking of namus 45 something is driving me nuts right now. Is there still one MP (excluding the UID from live oak) whose identity is still unknown?

The original 44 has two unknowns. I know one of them is Chioma Gray. Brooke Wilberger was also on his computer, but if I remember right she is the one that made it 45 instead of 44, so that would leave one out in the ether.

Has this last one been determined and I am just forgetting who?

 

[dub]

Speaking of namus 45 something is driving me nuts right now. Is there still one MP (excluding the UID from live oak) whose identity is still unknown?

The original 44 has two unknowns. I know one of them is Chioma Gray. Brooke Wilberger was also on his computer, but if I remember right she is the one that made it 45 instead of 44, so that would leave one out in the ether.

Has this last one been determined and I am just forgetting who?

Quoting self to say nevermind I figured it out - it was Gina DeJesus.

Eta: so for reference, for anyone looking at date/location patterns in namus 45, the previous unknowns were:

Gina DeJesus, 4/2/04, Cleveland OH
Brooke Wilberger, 5/24/04, Corvallis OR
Chioma Gray, 12/13/07, Ventura CA