Israel Keyes: General Discussion

[LeneYael]

I wonder if IK liked to revisit his victims remains like Ted Bundy did ? That may be why he wanted to see the photos of Bill and Lorraine Currier ....During some of the FBI interviews IK seemed to be reliving some details of the people he murdered as he became restless...

Probably. Often sk’s bury things (stuff and people) were they can drive by, or look out the window of their house and see some mark and know only they know…

 

[LeneYael]

It was definitely a knife, not a pen - hence the title of s3 e17 “The Knife”.

I can’t remember what other episode it was, I was listening to some older episodes recently but I was jumping around so I can’t nail it down, but I’m almost positive there was one.

But if you want some other compelling circumstantial info related to Tidwell (as well as some other cases) listen to s4 e14.

I’ve listened to all the episodes multiple multiple times! Whether it was a knife or something else, the company name wasn’t the company Tidwell worked at but some other company that did work with them. I’ve started to think he (IK) might have been contemplating suicide when “stuck in mud”. That would explain why he brought the guns down (or Kim did) and then brought them back up. And he had been crying and totally broke down at the wedding saying he has to drink everyday to forget, etc. He had said he would kill himself a month before. I go back and forth on JT.

 

[dub]

I’ve listened to all the episodes multiple multiple times! Whether it was a knife or something else, the company name wasn’t the company Tidwell worked at but some other company that did work with them. I’ve started to think he (IK) might have been contemplating suicide when “stuck in mud”. That would explain why he brought the guns down (or Kim did) and then brought them back up. And he had been crying and totally broke down at the wedding saying he has to drink everyday to forget, etc. He had said he would kill himself a month before. I go back and forth on JT.

Nice. And yes you’re right about the provenance of the item in question. The idea of suicide around that time is an interesting one I hadn’t considered, he was definitely out of control by that point so it’s possible for sure.

I think a lot of us have cases we’re real back and forth on. Tidwell is not one of them for me, but I get it. The ones I am all over the grid on are Del Sample, Karen Adams and Lauren Spierer.

 

[dub]

So I have three gun-related questions, one general and two specific to Keyes, that I was wondering if anyone could help me out with.

1.) Are a Glock .40 and a S&W .40 definitely two different things, or could the terms potentially be used interchangeably?

2.) Keyes had a .40 handgun (almost positive it was a Glock) when he abducted the Curriers. Was this gun recovered at Blake Falls, either in the reservoir or in the bucket, in addition to the 10-22 and the Curriers' .38 that were found? (I can't find any source that is clear on this either way, and TCBS has made statements that vaguely both suggest that it was and that it wasn't.)

3.) Did Keyes have a gun with him when he was arrested, and if so, what kind?

The reason I am asking is: according to Keyes, he used the same gun in both the 2009 Tupper Lake robbery and the 2012 Texas robbery. Seemingly it was not the same one he had during the Currier murders, which was in between the two. I have a theory that I am working through on this second gun, and how it might link to one or possibly two other victims.

After writing it out, I realize that the answers to the above are not critical to the theory, but if the answer to 1.) is YES and 2.) is NO then it would give it a bit more weight.

And question 4.) that could totally blow up the theory: do we know the exact dates that Keyes staked out Eagle River in May 2011?

Any help would be appreciated!

 

[Pyrite]

Glock is a gun manufacturer. Smith and Wesson (s&w) is a different gun manufacturer. .40 is the caliber of gun both Glock and S&W make. So if I get what you are asking in q1, the answer is a Glock .40 and a s&w .40 are 2 different things and wouldn’t be used interchangeably.

Edited for typo correction

 

[dub]

Glock is a gun manufacturer. Smith and Wesson (s&w) is a different gun manufacturer. .40 is the caliber of gun both Glock and S&W make. So if I get what you are asking in q1, the answer is a Glock .40 and a s&w .40 are 2 different things and wouldn’t be used interchangeably.

Edited for typo correction

Awesome thank you, that’s exactly what I was asking and that’s what I was guessing was the case.

 

[LeneYael]

Nice. And yes you’re right about the provenance of the item in question. The idea of suicide around that time is an interesting one I hadn’t considered, he was definitely out of control by that point so it’s possible for sure.

I think a lot of us have cases we’re real back and forth on. Tidwell is not one of them for me, but I get it. The ones I am all over the grid on are Del Sample, Karen Adams and Lauren Spierer.

Are you on the fence about them or quite sure (well as sure as one can be you know)?
The ones I’m ”surest” of are Spierer, Suzy Lyall and Kami Vollendrof and Eugene Hyatt. Also, I am quite sure/half sure about Karen Adams, Delmar Sample, and unfortunately Lindsey Baum. Danielle Imbo and R. Petrone…and those last ones because IK grew a moustache later that month, that year. Have you listened to the Kimberly interviews and babysitter interview?

 

[LeneYael]

IMO, the most revealing moments in the FBI interviews were those instances when Keyes was describing various killings. JMO, it's not "restlessness" that overcame him in those moments, it's agitation, desire and possessiveness. He could re-live each murder every day if he so chose - and I believe he did - but he did not want to share the intimate details with anyone else. Not ever. Those couple of times when he had to describe a killing, per his strategic choices around bargaining for the death penalty, it was really difficult for him to narrate the event while at the same time keeping the experience completely his own private property. He had to work hard to conceal his arousal, which was still immense all those months later.

Maybe he would have revisited victims, but I don't think he needed to. I think he had all he needed in the scenes he could replay at will. I think he replayed a couple of them right there in front of the agents. Chilling.

Yeah, I agree. I think he very much considered his victims his own, his private, his possessions kind of. I think he really fell for Samantha. You know, when they ask him if he texted Samantha’s boyfriend, he’s like ”Well!. …” and stops himself or is kind of quiet and then answers the question. Very much sounded like he wanted to say something like ”Well, if you consider him her boyfriend after she was with me!” but maybe realized the absurdity of that. The whole poem also points to that, that he thought of it like somekind of loveaffair. Imo.

 

[LeneYael]

Yeah, I agree. I think he very much considered his victims his own, his private, his possessions kind of. I think he really fell for Samantha. You know, when they ask him if he texted Samantha’s boyfriend, he’s like ”Well!. …” and stops himself or is kind of quiet and then answers the question. Very much sounded like he wanted to say something like ”Well, if you consider him her boyfriend after she was with me!” but maybe realized the absurdity of that. The whole poem also points to that, that he thought of it like somekind of loveaffair. Imo.

Also constantly saying ”we” when talking about where he took Samantha and what he made her do/not do. ”Then we drove there, then we shared a cigarette”, etc.

 

[LeneYael]

I’m curious to hear what everyone thinks about the somewhat lack of interest in Keyes in the true crime world (especially when compared to other serial killers). If you really think about it, TCB is really the only podcast I know of that has covered his crimes AT ALL. There’s been a single book written about him AFAIK. Whereas other serial killers have a dozen or more books written about them and every true crime podcast has done at least one episode about them. Why do you think that is?

Do you think it’s because he was somewhat successful in minimizing publicity? Because he was such a private person and so little is really known about who he was and the true extent of his crimes?

Because those are actually the reasons that I find him so fascinating (for lack of a better term). It’s because he was so private and seemingly committed an untold number of heinous crimes for years and years and years without a single ounce of suspicion from anyone … these are reasons why I would expect him to be a frequent topic of discussion amongst true crime followers. But that doesn’t seem to be the case. (To me anyway…)

There are two book; American Predator and Devil in the Darkness. I think another reason (on top of those already listed) is that it’s such an open case. There is no proper closure, justice, we don’t know and will probably never know the answers. People are uncomfortable with that.

 

[dub]

Are you on the fence about them or quite sure (well as sure as one can be you know)?
The ones I’m ”surest” of are Spierer, Suzy Lyall and Kami Vollendrof and Eugene Hyatt. Also, I am quite sure/half sure about Karen Adams, Delmar Sample, and unfortunately Lindsey Baum. Danielle Imbo and R. Petrone…and those last ones because IK grew a moustache later that month, that year. Have you listened to the Kimberly interviews and babysitter interview?

Right now I’m “half sure” on Spierer, leaning “no” on Adams, and Sample is a coin flip.

I definitely agree that Suzy and Kami/Gene are victims. I don’t think Lindsey or Richard/Danielle are.

The people I’m most sure of are Suzy, Kami/Gene, Tidwell, Mike Mason, Gary Bryant, and John Hanneman. ETA - and Kim Forbes

I don’t think I’ve listened to those interviews directly, if I have it was a long time ago.

 

[cujenn81]

There are two book; American Predator and Devil in the Darkness. I think another reason (on top of those already listed) is that it’s such an open case. There is no proper closure, justice, we don’t know and will probably never know the answers. People are uncomfortable with that.

Oh okay. Read American Predator but didn’t know about the other one.

 

[LeneYael]

Right now I’m “half sure” on Spierer, leaning “no” on Adams, and Sample is a coin flip.

I definitely agree that Suzy and Kami/Gene are victims. I don’t think Lindsey or Richard/Danielle are.

The people I’m most sure of are Suzy, Kami/Gene, Tidwell, Mike Mason, Gary Bryant, and John Hanneman. ETA - and Kim Forbes

I don’t think I’ve listened to those interviews directly, if I have it was a long time ago.

They only now came out on youtube. Look channel name Sotos , the Kimberly interviews

 

[LeneYael]

IMO, the most revealing moments in the FBI interviews were those instances when Keyes was describing various killings. JMO, it's not "restlessness" that overcame him in those moments, it's agitation, desire and possessiveness. He could re-live each murder every day if he so chose - and I believe he did - but he did not want to share the intimate details with anyone else. Not ever. Those couple of times when he had to describe a killing, per his strategic choices around bargaining for the death penalty, it was really difficult for him to narrate the event while at the same time keeping the experience completely his own private property. He had to work hard to conceal his arousal, which was still immense all those months later.

Maybe he would have revisited victims, but I don't think he needed to. I think he had all he needed in the scenes he could replay at will. I think he replayed a couple of them right there in front of the agents. Chilling.

I agree that it’s desire and possessiveness, I don’t think he sounded restless at those times at all. More like thick in fantasy of what He made happen.

 

[Muddy K]

Within all the hours of the FBI interviews, one thing haunts me most, draws me back again and again. It's from the extensive "walk-through" that Keyes narrated of his murders of the Couriers. After he's tied Mr. Courier down in the basement and returned to the already-bound Mrs. Courier in the upstairs bedroom, he talks about the rotting condition of the abandoned farmhouse, holes in the roof, stained mattresses, weak floorboards, etc.

He talks about having worried that his camp stove was going to fall through the bedroom floor and start the whole place on fire. He was asked what he used the camp stove for. He replied "To boil water."

Mrs. Courier had been tied, facedown and spreadeagled, on an old mattress. Keyes has already explained the elaborate method he used to tie her. He's already said he removed her clothes.

That camp stove was an important enough element to Keyes that he included it in his meticulous walk-through. What was he going to do with that boiling water? What did he do with it?

This stays with me because I believe he did something to Mrs. Courier with that water. If I'm right, then this detail offers a rare, easy-to-miss glimpse into the ways he tortured his victims.

If, on the other hand, he used that camp stove to make himself a cup of coffee between his first and second rape of Mrs. Courier, then only the method of torture changes, not the importance of the camp stove.

 

[ekardh]

Are you on the fence about them or quite sure (well as sure as one can be you know)?
The ones I’m ”surest” of are Spierer, Suzy Lyall and Kami Vollendrof and Eugene Hyatt. Also, I am quite sure/half sure about Karen Adams, Delmar Sample, and unfortunately Lindsey Baum. Danielle Imbo and R. Petrone…and those last ones because IK grew a moustache later that month, that year. Have you listened to the Kimberly interviews and babysitter interview?

Right now I’m “half sure” on Spierer, leaning “no” on Adams, and Sample is a coin flip.

I definitely agree that Suzy and Kami/Gene are victims. I don’t think Lindsey or Richard/Danielle are.

The people I’m most sure of are Suzy, Kami/Gene, Tidwell, Mike Mason, Gary Bryant, and John Hanneman. ETA - and Kim Forbes

I don’t think I’ve listened to those interviews directly, if I have it was a long time ago.

Hello, would you mind explaining your confidence that Kami & Eugene were victims of Keyes? Everything seems to point to them having an accident during the storm.

 

[dub]

Hello, would you mind explaining your confidence that Kami & Eugene were victims of Keyes? Everything seems to point to them having an accident during the storm.

That’s what I thought too at first.

TCBS has really changed my thinking on that case, maybe more than any other. Mostly because they explain very well how unlikely an accident scenario would have been, and how if that had been the case they would almost certainly have been found. And that there were potential Keyes sightings both at the site of the disappearance, and the day prior en route from his home to the site (although obviously these are not 100%.)

There are two episodes that focus heavily on Kami and Gene - s1 e7 and s5 e3. The sighting from the day prior is discussed in the most recent episode, s6 e4.

 

[sripey]

That’s what I thought too at first.

TCBS has really changed my thinking on that case, maybe more than any other. Mostly because they explain very well how unlikely an accident scenario would have been, and how if that had been the case they would almost certainly have been found. And that there were potential Keyes sightings both at the site of the disappearance, and the day prior en route from his home to the site (although obviously these are not 100%.)

There are two episodes that focus heavily on Kami and Gene - s1 e7 and s5 e3. The sighting from the day prior is discussed in the most recent episode, s6 e4.

I believe it is also within the timeframe that Keyes said that he took a couple; and Kami and Eugene are the only couple to disappear in that timeframe in the Oregon and Washington area.

 

[dub]

I believe it is also within the timeframe that Keyes said that he took a couple; and Kami and Eugene are the only couple to disappear in that timeframe in the Oregon and Washington area.

Yeah it is within that timeframe.

They might be the only couple to have disappeared within it, but there is also supposedly a couple that disappeared from Ellensburg while Keyes was active in the PNW.

I have no idea who these people are or when they disappeared though, it’s been mentioned in passing a couple times on TCBS but never explained.

 

[LeneYael]

Hello, would you mind explaining your confidence that Kami & Eugene were victims of Keyes? Everything seems to point to them having an accident during the storm.

However much I might disagree on the latest stuff TCBS has come up with, I do think the case for Kami and Eugene being victims has been clear and well laid out. Keyes admitted to abducting a couple in this area. Their pictures were found on his computer; they are part of the ”NAMUS45”. A guy who was described as looking like Christian Longo was there, asking weird questions when K&E families were there searching for them. Look up what he looks like, a lot like a young Keyes. Keyes seems to have had a roundness to his face that disappeared with age that Longo also has, combined with prominent nose. The shoe that belonged to Eugene was really clean for having been in the elements (esp. the sea!) for days. I haven’t personally seen a picture of the found sneaker, but I’m going to look it up. IK says he killed someone by accident when he was ”just trying to take him out of action” by hitting them on the head with a shovel. This could have been Eugene. No other couple has disappeared that time, in that area. The Ellensburg couple has only been brought up in the TCBS podcast, I’ve never heard or read of them anywhere else. Only time Ellensburg has been mentioned was when they (fbi and keyes) were talking jurisdictions. Keyes asked if Ellensburg is west WA or east WA. They told him east WA and he replied ”well, you’re going to need both then!” This is the biggest reason I even thought about Lindsey Baum being victim. She was abducted in west WA and her partial remains were found in east WA, outside Ellensburg.