JAG Armchair Psych Profile Family Dynamics

Somebody knew, that seems sure.

When was Gma taken to the hospital? Feb 17th, yes?
When was the attempted abduction in Lake Elsinore? Probably in here sometime
JAG evicted from GMa's house sometime between 2/17 and 2/20, correct?
Reported 'stalking' of a young girl either 2/24 or 2/25 in front of school
Chelsea goes missing on Feb. 25.

JAG arrested Feb 28.

It seems to me, that he went to Mother's house because he couldn't stay at Gma's anymore. With the Sheriff's involvement in the argument at Gma's house (per the relative), stressors became huge again - he was back on LE's radar (if only in his own mind). He goes to Moms, may be told he can't stay there (or for a long time), and is given a deadline to move out. Stressors build again. He stalks, and then, for whatever reason wasn't able to snatch. That afternoon, he stalks, and can snatch, and kill, Chelsea.

He is arrested on Sunday. The next day, I am sure, his family is interrogated; his former girlfriend is pressured to talk, tell them what she knows. She sits with the information for a while, either to determine that JAG is not getting out or that she really needs to tell someone what she knows, gives them some information that leads them to connect with DuBois, and subsequent conversations lead them to Pala...her guilt is too much to bear as she feels like if she'd told earlier, Chelsea would not have been murdered, JAG would've been arrested, and put away.

She may not have felt any guilt (or not as much) earlier because Amber was already dead...nothing she could do about it, and telling would put her at too much risk - either of getting killed herself, or of losing a relationship, or (if she is the one with children by him) having her children hurt. But since he's now behind bars, she feels safer and is able to talk.

I really don't know...this is total blue-skying here. But I'm willing to bet that something like this happened; the female "tell-er" may have been his mother, too, who was threatened by him and worried for her safety. Dunno...but I'm thinking it's someone who had been frightened badly by JAG, shown the spot (how else could the specificity be there?) Amber was buried in, and was finally able to tell because he was behind bars, and didn't pose as big a threat to her as before.

And I have to stress that this is complete and utter imagination...just trying to put things together in a relatively logical and cogent manner...I could be completely off base (and probably am).

Best-
Herding Cats
 
Specific location sounds near impossible for LE to find Amber without someone talking. Him or someone he told must have pointed out the spot.

Fear is for those around someone like this. Fear may have been part of all his relationships lately. It's part of "that fight or flight of just knowing him" maybe. He must have been totally out of control for everyone to be turning their back on him. I haven't done my research yet on when he stopped living with his gf.

I also wonder if someone gave the LE a heads up before they arrested him as to his being a POI and his where abouts. Thought maybe Mom could've, but guess it was the DNA trail he left.

A few people, even Ann Rule and his live in gf, reported Ted Bundy as a POI even though they, at the same time, thought he was a brilliant, charming young man. The gf even took him back after she reported him. (secretly reported due to Fear)
 
I must say, I'm surprised if he was talking, and led them to Amber's body. If he did, it was to save his own neck...made a deal to take death off the table, and only LWOP'd.

Gma's hospitalization and illness, leading to the eviction from the house in Lake Elsinore, would definitely seem like an abandonment/rejection issue...

Just not sure yet what to think.

Best-
Herding Cats

ETA: It seems he was not the source of the lead. According to an article posted in Amber's forum, someone else gave the lead. What is interesting is this: the lead was rather specific...and in that rural area, it would need to be very, very specific to be able to locate Amber's body. This leads me to believe that whomever gave the lead to LE, had gone to the site before...gone or was taken. And I'm thinking the leadgiver is a female, close to JAG...

Utter blue skying here, but...what if it was his most recent girlfriend, and he had taken her to the site to 'show her what happens when people leave me' kind of thing? And then, because she was frightened of him, she held the information until now, and came forward because of pressure on her by LE (and they would be questioning her closely...) or because she finally felt safe from him and felt horrible that her secret led to another child's life being taken.

Just a few thoughts rambling around what passes for my brain on a Sunday evening.

An excellent point! It's been mentioned that his girlfriend recently broke up with him. The relative that was interviewed said that he crashed the gold car, lost his job, and broke up with his girlfriend during the same time frame - February.
 
Yikes! What terrible upheaval was going on in his life when Amber went missing? Or others. His gf is lucky to be alive. She must have had to walk on egg shells or have been submissive. Then again, maybe she'll say he never even raised his voice. He just left the house and ...........?
 
Please stay on topic in this thread. This is not a general discussion thread.
where this post lands on the thread is random.
thank you
 
from the probation report: the psych eval determined that he was not suffering from ADHD (as he claimed he was)at the time the report was written.
This was based on the fact that he had not been medicated since age 16, held jobs, and graduated from hs with 3.2 GPA.
 
I really wish I could read the reports of both psychiatrists, side by side. It would be very telling to see what he told one and not the other, and how they reached their conclusions.

For the record, I believe that Dr. Carroll is correct.

I also believe that JAG told, or intimated at least, Dr. C that there were additional victims prior to this assault; if JAG didn't hint/allude to it, Dr. C heard/saw something that led him to believe it to be so.

The reason I believe this, is because Dr. C used the term "femaleS" and "them", rather than "female" and "her". This is not an error, I don't think; it seems to me that Dr. C was paying close attention to details...and may have been trying to indicate information without breaking confidentiality. I ***really*** wish I could read the original report...

I will be back in a few minutes in re the meds list, and the s/s of ADHD. I am left wondering, however, where the BP diagnosis came from.

Back in a few...

Best-
Herding Cats
 
I really wish I could read the reports of both psychiatrists, side by side. It would be very telling to see what he told one and not the other, and how they reached their conclusions.

For the record, I believe that Dr. Carroll is correct.

I also believe that JAG told, or intimated at least, Dr. C that there were additional victims prior to this assault; if JAG didn't hint/allude to it, Dr. C heard/saw something that led him to believe it to be so.

The reason I believe this, is because Dr. C used the term "femaleS" and "them", rather than "female" and "her". This is not an error, I don't think; it seems to me that Dr. C was paying close attention to details...and may have been trying to indicate information without breaking confidentiality. I ***really*** wish I could read the original report...

I will be back in a few minutes in re the meds list, and the s/s of ADHD. I am left wondering, however, where the BP diagnosis came from.

Back in a few...

Best-
Herding Cats

He may be referring to the 14 yr old friend of the victim. "In the fall of 1999, when only 19, Gardner also fondled a 14-year-old girl.

The documents indicate that incident was consensual."
http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-john-gardner,0,2081218.story
 
I have the same question as you HC regarding the BP diagnosis. To be honest, the few things we have heard describing some of his behavior is consistent with bipolar behavior, imo. But of course making a diagnosis without actually talking to him and reviewing his entire history would certainly be difficult to impossible. So I am only saying that based on the bits of info we have, it is still a distinct possibility for me. Of course there are plenty of disorders that can be comorbid to bipolar I. (including ADHD of course)
 
Ritalin: Stimulant. I am not clear as to how it works, but it appears to allow more neurotransmitters needed for attention-demanding tasks. It is a common drug used in children with confirmed ADHD, but it is a tightly controlled med, needing a new perscription each time a user needs a refill. Potential for abuse is very, very high.
Sylert: No longer available in the US. Central nervous system stimulant. Was pulled from the US market because of hepatic failure, and should not be considered as first line treatment for ADHD.
Zoloft: Antidepressant, SSRI catagory. Used primarily for depression, anxiety. Can also be used for OCD, PTSD.
Paxil: Anti-depressant, SSRI catagory. Used primarily for depression, but can be used to treat OCD, anxiety, and agitation, PTSD, and PMMD (obviously not with JAG - pre menstrual mood disorder)
Tegretol: anti-seizure med primarily (used often with epilepsy). Can be used to sedate when hypermania exists. Interacts with Wellbutrin. Can also be used to control neuropathy (a certain kind of pain), and headaches (cluster, migraine, severe).
Impripramine: tricyclic antidepressant. Used for depression; enuresis (bedwetting). It is an uncommon drug, and only is effective with people who have clinical depression (an imbalance in neurotransmitters), but does not affect someone who has normal levels of seratonin, dopamine, and histamines. Use with caution.
Wellbutrin: antidepressant, SSRI. Used for depression. Use with caution in treating bi-polar, as some evidence points to triggers of a manic phase. Common s/e are anxiety, suicidal ideations, and other psychotic episodic events.

One thing which struck me is that there aren't any noted meds for bi-polar. I was looking for meds like lithium, risperdal, depakene/depakote, lamictil, zyprexa, abilify...but those weren't mentioned. There is a note which indicates that JAG took 18 meds, so obviously the list in the probation report is not complete. But I still would've thought I'd've seen at least one bi-polar med if his bi-polar diagnosis was a true one.

Bi polar is often misdiagnosed as depression. People seek help when they're depressed, not when they are manic (for the most part). Most of the time when a patient comes in to (my) the hospital and they are diagnosed as bi-polar, it's because they're in the midst of a significant manic episode, which can include cessation of sleep, speeding /racing thoughts, tangentiality, inability to care for self, grandiose thoughts and behaviors, and so on. It's not too difficult to spot a person in a manic episode, once you've seen it...but if a person is having a 'sub-acute' episode (meaning, it's not bad enough to affect one's ability to take care of oneself), it's really hard to spot.

So most folks don't get diagnosed in the manic stage, but do get given a diagnosis of depression; and are subsequently treated as a depressive rather than a bi-polar sufferer.

Bearing that in mind, I find it utterly fascinating that the majority of his meds were addressing depression; something he was not diagnosed with (or at least it's not been alluded to in anything I've read; I could've missed it). Depression also tends to not kill other people, but does kill the sufferer via suicide. It's not often there's a homicidal aspect to depression, at least not a serial one (homicidal/suicidal instances together are, sadly, fairly common); if there is one, it's often 'incidental' and/or in the course of the act of suicide.

And it was stated that he has been off all meds from the time he was 16.

So.

Dr. Carroll was unable to give an axis 1 disorder. Which tells me, we're dealing solely with an axis 2 disorder, and that it is more than likely it's BPD and/or antisocial (it's possible to have all 'cluster' disorders at once).

Best-
Herding Cats
 
I have the same question as you HC regarding the BP diagnosis. To be honest, the few things we have heard describing some of his behavior is consistent with bipolar behavior, imo. But of course making a diagnosis without actually talking to him and reviewing his entire history would certainly be difficult to impossible. So I am only saying that based on the bits of info we have, it is still a distinct possibility for me. Of course there are plenty of disorders that can be comorbid to bipolar I. (including ADHD of course)

I think it's close to impossible to diagnose without a full history, and a more complete list of his behaviors. I think it's possible, but I'm thinking it's less and less likely it's an axis 1, and more and more likely it's an axis 2.

Oh, to read the psychiatrists' reports on JAG...

Best-
Herding Cats
 
Generally speaking antidepressants are not a good drug choice for bipolars. There are exception as the posters in our bipolar thread in the jury room will tell us.
But often, Anti depressants can often exacerbate bipolar symptoms. Bipolar disorder often is not an easy diagnosis because not many people go to the doctor when THEY ARE FEELING GREAT. But they do go when they feel depressed and of course anti-depressants are typically prescribed right out of the gate. There can be hell to pay when that happens, as many of us parents of bipolar children can tell you.


eta: LOL I just read your whole post herding Cats and as you can see i concur. Tegretol is used for bipolar. I have a bipolar son and an epileptic son and they were both treated with lamictal for a long time. :)
But we found out the hard way that with the severe bipolar that my one son has, the only drug that works is lithium.
 
I've yet to see anything that proves JAG has mood swings severe enough to be classified Bi polar, though he may be. No doubt there sre some aberrations in this thinking processes that lead him to do what he does. Did the string of bad luck he went through kick him into a manic phase? What else besides prescription drugs has he taken?

Some holistic docs work BPD by putting a person on sleep monitoring, making sure they're not staying up for days on end in the manic phase, i.e. You can stay up all night for one night now and then, but if it goes past two days, come in and get something to help you sleep.....and helping boost serotonin in the down cycles. Too much serotonin will make one giddy and manic. Lithium carbonate is a poison. Other forms of lithium would be better. Look up Lithium carbonate on the chemical warning sheets. It's a caustic chemical that burns mucus membranes.
 
I've yet to see anything that proves JAG has mood swings severe enough to be classified Bi polar, though he may be. No doubt there sre some aberrations in this thinking processes that lead him to do what he does. Did the string of bad luck he went through kick him into a manic phase? What else besides prescription drugs has he taken?

Some holistic docs work BPD by putting a person on sleep monitoring, making sure they're not staying up for days on end in the manic phase, i.e. You can stay up all night for one night now and then, but if it goes past two days, come in and get something to help you sleep.....and helping boost serotonin in the down cycles. Too much serotonin will make one giddy and manic. Lithium carbonate is a poison. Other forms of lithium would be better. Look up Lithium carbonate on the chemical warning sheets. It's a caustic chemical that burns mucus membranes.
It is important to note that bipolar does not look the same on all people. Moreover, bipolar I and bipolar II are different and manifestations of each can come in the form of different types of episodes.
I am not agreeing or disagreeing, just adding more infomration to the mix.
 
It is important to note that bipolar does not look the same on all people. Moreover, bipolar I and bipolar II are different and manifestations of each can come in the form of different types of episodes.
I am not agreeing or disagreeing, just adding more infomration to the mix.

I definitely agree, JBean...there's fast cycling, slow cycling, mostly depressed, mostly manic, and everything in between there's many varieties. Some people take years between the cycles.
 
I definitely agree, JBean...there's fast cycling, slow cycling, mostly depressed, mostly manic, and everything in between there's many varieties. Some people take years between the cycles.
True that.
 
Ritalin: Stimulant. I am not clear as to how it works, but it appears to allow more neurotransmitters needed for attention-demanding tasks. It is a common drug used in children with confirmed ADHD, but it is a tightly controlled med, needing a new perscription each time a user needs a refill. Potential for abuse is very, very high.
Sylert: No longer available in the US. Central nervous system stimulant. Was pulled from the US market because of hepatic failure, and should not be considered as first line treatment for ADHD.
Zoloft: Antidepressant, SSRI catagory. Used primarily for depression, anxiety. Can also be used for OCD, PTSD.
Paxil: Anti-depressant, SSRI catagory. Used primarily for depression, but can be used to treat OCD, anxiety, and agitation, PTSD, and PMMD (obviously not with JAG - pre menstrual mood disorder)
Tegretol: anti-seizure med primarily (used often with epilepsy). Can be used to sedate when hypermania exists. Interacts with Wellbutrin. Can also be used to control neuropathy (a certain kind of pain), and headaches (cluster, migraine, severe).
Impripramine: tricyclic antidepressant. Used for depression; enuresis (bedwetting). It is an uncommon drug, and only is effective with people who have clinical depression (an imbalance in neurotransmitters), but does not affect someone who has normal levels of seratonin, dopamine, and histamines. Use with caution.
Wellbutrin: antidepressant, SSRI. Used for depression. Use with caution in treating bi-polar, as some evidence points to triggers of a manic phase. Common s/e are anxiety, suicidal ideations, and other psychotic episodic events.

One thing which struck me is that there aren't any noted meds for bi-polar. I was looking for meds like lithium, risperdal, depakene/depakote, lamictil, zyprexa, abilify...but those weren't mentioned. There is a note which indicates that JAG took 18 meds, so obviously the list in the probation report is not complete. But I still would've thought I'd've seen at least one bi-polar med if his bi-polar diagnosis was a true one.

Bi polar is often misdiagnosed as depression. People seek help when they're depressed, not when they are manic (for the most part). Most of the time when a patient comes in to (my) the hospital and they are diagnosed as bi-polar, it's because they're in the midst of a significant manic episode, which can include cessation of sleep, speeding /racing thoughts, tangentiality, inability to care for self, grandiose thoughts and behaviors, and so on. It's not too difficult to spot a person in a manic episode, once you've seen it...but if a person is having a 'sub-acute' episode (meaning, it's not bad enough to affect one's ability to take care of oneself), it's really hard to spot.

So most folks don't get diagnosed in the manic stage, but do get given a diagnosis of depression; and are subsequently treated as a depressive rather than a bi-polar sufferer.

Bearing that in mind, I find it utterly fascinating that the majority of his meds were addressing depression; something he was not diagnosed with (or at least it's not been alluded to in anything I've read; I could've missed it). Depression also tends to not kill other people, but does kill the sufferer via suicide. It's not often there's a homicidal aspect to depression, at least not a serial one (homicidal/suicidal instances together are, sadly, fairly common); if there is one, it's often 'incidental' and/or in the course of the act of suicide.

And it was stated that he has been off all meds from the time he was 16.

So.

Dr. Carroll was unable to give an axis 1 disorder. Which tells me, we're dealing solely with an axis 2 disorder, and that it is more than likely it's BPD and/or antisocial (it's possible to have all 'cluster' disorders at once).

Best-
Herding Cats

BBM
Just a note to say - Bi polar is also misdiagnosed as schizophrenia, especially when the patient is experiencing the symptomatologies you have suggested and that I bolded. That misdiagnosis may have been rather frequent 10 - 15 years ago. Bottom line - Bi polar can be a very difficult diagnosis to get right. MOO
 
Because of the strong genetic component,there is almost always a family history of bipolar. We could say with some certainty that another member of his family would have to suffer from this disorder.
 
I thought I'd read somewhere that he was in a SED (severely emotionally disabled) class...ADHD could qualify for that, but so could early childhood BP...and he was hospitalized at some point, which (and I could be completely wrong...) is what led to his being included in the SED class. I think. I could be utterly off base, but I've had the impression that his hospitalization was in his teen years (while in school).

If he did abduct and kill Amber, this would certainly lead to a sense of "they can't catch me" (and I think it is what happened...). I don't know if it was narcissistic or antisocial, though, inasmuch as if it were narcissistic, that's easily broken in interrogation and narcissitic people are easily led to talk about how great they are, how wonderful they committed the crime, et cetera. If, indeed, he is antisocial, he may be able to deflect all attempts at interrogation simply because the world responds to him, and not he to the world. If he has no guilt, no conscious, then he has nothing to answer for.

But this is complete armchair stuff...without a whole lot more information, and without a whole lot more history of his life, it will be hard to determine what is "wrong" with him...

And, I just want to be clear, I don't think any of this could/should excuse his behavior, and does not amount to any foundation for a NGBRI defense. It doesn't reach that level, not in the least.

Best-
Herding Cats
I've never seen ADHD qualify any student for a label of SED (Severely Emotionally Disturbed) in the school setting. Now, I've seen SED students who also have a diagnosis of ADHD. Usually the SED students have several labels/diagnosis going on. Intermittent Explosive Disorder, Mood Disorder, Reactive Attachment Disorder, OCD, etc. and many have a history of abuse/neglect. A label of SED is not easily come by in the school system. (At least not in the places I've worked.)
 

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