Knowing all you know today about this case who do you think really killed JonBenet?

[OpenMind4U]

Wicking into two layers of clothes would happen if a person lay down on a wet spot in the carpet, but it might not wick up into the crotch area of both layers of clothing.

Agree. Even more, if the first layer (Bloomies size 12 panty) has the larger area of the urine stain than the second layer (longjohns) and with the proper adjustments/consideration of the differences in fabrics on these panties - my theory of 'wicking' wouldn't be valid at all!!!

...Unfortunetly, we don't know such a details. The point I made about carpet as the source of urine stains on panties (or like otg call it 'wicking') - was just hypothetical idea of another possibility what could happened in the basement....like Kane said: 'what the public thinks is fact is simply not the fact'. (Kolar, page 180)

 

[Bonnette]

Wouldn't it be possible that if JB was found by her parents showing all the trauma, they ASSUMED she was already dead? That would lead to them writing a crazy ransom note to make it look like a kidnapping. They would have planned to hide/dispose of her body, and sometime during it all go ahead and call police so she could later then be 'found' dead, just as the kidnappers threatened. Forensic evidence showed Patsy's fibers tied into the "garrote", so why couldn't they have thought to make her death look like she'd been strangled by those horrible kidnappers. Twist to the whole thing is that JB still had life left in her, and they didn't realize the tightening of that ligature would have been the final deed. I don't think Patsy had the guts to pull that cord, so JR had to, and when she let go of her bladder, they really freaked out, so wrapped her in her blanket to cover up the 'wetness' as they would have had to handle her during the hiding/disposal. Time was running out on them to get her out of the house successfully, so they stashed her thinking they could take care of that once the police focused away from the house, as they expected them to do.

Certainly, it's possible. As someone else (I think it was DeeDee) said elsewhere, we can't really put anything past anyone. My view is that the events of that night didn't transpire as above, but of course they might have.

 

[Chrishope]

Chrishope,
Lets assume Patsy purchased the pineapple and prepared it in the bowl, possibly serving up a portion or not, then places it into the fridge?

The important issue is the forensic evidence, both Patsy's and Burke's fingerprints are on that bowl. Also Burke's fingerprint is on the glass containing the teabag.

So it looks to me as if Burke has fetched the bowl from the fridge, possibly even portioning out some pineapple for JonBenet?

So independently of John or Patsy's knowledge JonBenet may have snacked pineapple.

In the timeframe of events this suggests Burke as being the last person to see JonBenet alive?

From: “JonBenet: Anatomy of a Cold Case"


So for those that think the pineapple had been on the table for an extended period, Patsy says, no, she cleaned off the table after breakfast.

With the crab she consumed at the White's below the pineapple in her stomach, it was estimated the pineapple was eaten one to two hours before her death. Somewhere about 10:00 pm.

The same issue regarding collusion arises with the size-12's. Those that promote a JDI theory, have to explain why John never forewarned Patsy about the size-12's prior to Patsy's interview with BPD. She was left to invent some story, that never stacked up!


.

Sure JB could have eaten pineapple w/o the Rs knowledge. No question about it.

Burke might have fetched the bowl, but that needn't be the case. We don't know when his prints got on the bowl. His prints could have been on it prior to it being placed in the 'fridge.

 

[Chrishope]

I wonder how much of that morning PR truly remembers. From what I've read, and I'll hold my hands up that it's probably only a fraction of what many of you guys have, PR was sedated for a large part of the immediate days and weeks following December 26th. It makes me wonder how much of the information PR revealed comes from what JR and his legal team fed her. I'm wondering if PR could have been highly suggestible in her sedated/post sedated state.

It could well be that she was fed info by JR's team.

To me the important point is that A) she ate it 2 hours before death, and......that's it. There is nothing else we can really glean from the pineapple. We don't know if both parents are ignorant, or just one.

Some people spend a lot of time on this because they believe they've caught the Rs in a lie. But we don't really know that.

 

[OpenMind4U]

I'm going to use this thread by taking your attention to the past: the fascinating interview by Larry King, in 2000. If you'll read it again with the today's knowledge - you'll enjoy it much more. JMO

http://www.acandyrose.com/04142000larrykinglive.htm

 

[DeeDee249]

Sure JB could have eaten pineapple w/o the Rs knowledge. No question about it.

Burke might have fetched the bowl, but that needn't be the case. We don't know when his prints got on the bowl. His prints could have been on it prior to it being placed in the 'fridge.

Absolutely true. Fingerprints can't be "dated". Patsy and BR's prints can't be proven to have been left the night of the murder, though I feel they were. The only thing we know from the absence of JB's prints is that JB herself didn't take that bowl from the fridge or handle it in a significant way. It had also been said (by one parent, don't recall who) that JB would not have been able to reach the pineapple bowl in the large walk-in fridge where it had been.
We don't even know for sure when the bowl was taken out. Patsy was always untidy. Her kitchen counters were always cluttered with things that were not put away.
There is only one thing we are sure of- JB ate THAT pineapple from THAT bowl (it was tested against the pineapple found inside her) about 2 hours before she died.
We don't know who was with her when she ate it, or if they at any too.

That doesn't mean that just because prints can't be dated, they are not essential to solving a crime. In many cases, prints indicate the presence of someone who was with the deceased at a time that is important to the timeline of the crime. In the case of an intruder (even someone known to the victim), presence of prints or other DNA specific to the timeline of a crime are enough to indicate the presence of that person during the commission of the crime.
But in the case of THIS bowl- the prints happen to belong to two people who are on the (very short) list of those present in the house at the time the crime was committed. (in other words, SUSPECTS). That's two out of only three people. PROVEN to be in the house.

 

[wickedeye]

I am a BDI. I think he was the one sexually abusing JB, and the parents may not have known. Burke was strong enough to swing the flashlight and deliver the fatal wound, and there was a previous incident where he hit JB in the face with a golf club. He may have convinced her to come downstairs to look for presents as has been speculated by others, he drank tea she had pineapple, they went downstairs, JB unwraps the Barbie, Burke convinces JB to play, he sexually assaults his sister as she is strangled with the rope so she can't cry out and after seeing the damage he has caused he hits her on the head with the flashlight. He cleans her up and puts the large panties on her not thinking anything of it. He either left her there or put her in the winecellar himself. When the parents discovered JB gone they knew what had happened and cover up mode started. They sent Burke off before anyone could blink, salvaging their own reputations and turning JB into a legend. JMO

 

[DeeDee249]

I am a BDI. I think he was the one sexually abusing JB, and the parents may not have known. Burke was strong enough to swing the flashlight and deliver the fatal wound, and there was a previous incident where he hit JB in the face with a golf club. He may have convinced her to come downstairs to look for presents as has been speculated by others, he drank tea she had pineapple, they went downstairs, JB unwraps the Barbie, Burke convinces JB to play, he sexually assaults his sister as she is strangled with the rope so she can't cry out and after seeing the damage he has caused he hits her on the head with the flashlight. He cleans her up and puts the large panties on her not thinking anything of it. He either left her there or put her in the winecellar himself. When the parents discovered JB gone they knew what had happened and cover up mode started. They sent Burke off before anyone could blink, salvaging their own reputations and turning JB into a legend. JMO

I do not think BR did any if the cleanup or the staging. He'd never have known where the new panty pack was, or even that there WAS a new panty pack. He wasn't with Patsy when she bought them and I doubt a boy that age would express an interest in being shown gifts that were bought for a girl. I just don't see him knowing where the blanket was in the basement dryer- I doubt these kids- who never even put a lid back on a jar of peanut butter- paid attention to where and how the laundry was done. I don't see him cleaning up the blood at all, and I don't see him first laying down the blanket, dragging his sister in there (at dead weight, I don't see him carrying her) and putting her on the blanket and wrapping it around her. Her body showed NO evidence of being dragged.
Don't get me wrong- I believe he was certainly capable of bashing his sister on the head with something that could have caused that fracture. And I believe he was capable of molesting her.
But that's where I believe it ends. I unequivocally do not see him as involved with the clean up of the blood or coverup of the crime. That was his parents, 100%. MOO.

 

[OpenMind4U]

I do not think BR did any if the cleanup or the staging. He'd never have known where the new panty pack was, or even that there WAS a new panty pack. He wasn't with Patsy when she bought them and I doubt a boy that age would express an interest in being shown gifts that were bought for a girl. I just don't see him knowing where the blanket was in the basement dryer- I doubt these kids- who never even put a lid back on a jar of peanut butter- paid attention to where and how the laundry was done. I don't see him cleaning up the blood at all, and I don't see him first laying down the blanket, dragging his sister in there (at dead weight, I don't see him carrying her) and putting her on the blanket and wrapping it around her. Her body showed NO evidence of being dragged.
Don't get me wrong- I believe he was certainly capable of bashing his sister on the head with something that could have caused that fracture. And I believe he was capable of molesting her.
But that's where I believe it ends. I unequivocally do not see him as involved with the clean up of the blood or coverup of the crime. That was his parents, 100%. MOO.

DD, I do agree with you in regards that BR wouldn't do any of the 'staging' actions (cleaning, redressing, put in blanket with doll and nightgown, writing RN). But what about strangulation? Why wouldn't you think that BR was capable to perform such an act?! I do belive that all of the 'staging' was done by the parents. But I couldn't see them to use strangulation for the 'staging' purpose at all! What I'm missing? What would let parents to use strangulation action against dying child? Mercy? I don't think so. It could be used many other 'mercefull' ways to ease the pain of the dying child (I pray to God I should never know!)...Strangulation is very painfull and not easy way to die....this method is pretty much used as an 'assassination'/execution tool or in suicide...but not for the mercy purpose. JMO....

 

[blefuscu]

What does MOO mean? (apart from being the noise a cow makes, lol)

 

[Bonnette]

What does MOO mean? (apart from being the noise a cow makes, lol)

It means "My opinion only." There's a smilie for it, too: :moo:

 

[txsvicki]

A boy might not not stage and clean, but if he had been acting out with sexualized behavior for 3 years then escalated he might lure the younger child and resort to actually using force. Especially if the behavior was a strong compusion. Pineapple and presents downstairs could have been the lure. Maybe he thought patsy was in bed but she was still up.

 

[dodie20]

I am a BDI. I think he was the one sexually abusing JB, and the parents may not have known. Burke was strong enough to swing the flashlight and deliver the fatal wound, and there was a previous incident where he hit JB in the face with a golf club. He may have convinced her to come downstairs to look for presents as has been speculated by others, he drank tea she had pineapple, they went downstairs, JB unwraps the Barbie, Burke convinces JB to play, he sexually assaults his sister as she is strangled with the rope so she can't cry out and after seeing the damage he has caused he hits her on the head with the flashlight. He cleans her up and puts the large panties on her not thinking anything of it. He either left her there or put her in the winecellar himself. When the parents discovered JB gone they knew what had happened and cover up mode started. They sent Burke off before anyone could blink, salvaging their own reputations and turning JB into a legend. JMO

Actually, BR putting the size 12s on JB, majes sense. If they had opened presents, the panties would have been out, and being a 9 yr old boy, he would have noticed they were for girls, but not paid attention to the size. Her being cleaned and covered, but the garotte not being removed, also sounds like something a kid might do. Well, actually, it doesn't sound like anything anybody would do, but somebody did do these things, and a 9 yr old is as good a guess as any. I know PR was never ruled out as the writer of the note, but she wasn't definatively ruled in either. Was a kid as the author, ever considered? because there were parts in the letter, that sounded like something a kid might come up with. For instance, the part that said to not try to outsmart them, seemed really childish. Also, I remember reading that Victory SBTC, (in sailboating circles), is often used to signify a win and Signed By The Captain. A kid from a sailing family might be impressed by this, but in all honesty, I can't imagine an adult using such a familiar term. Anyway, I think PR wrote the note, but I'm trying to consider other possibilities. MOO.

 

[txsvicki]

I think patsy wrote the note but keep flip flopping between her doing all 3 assaults and burke doing them. I'd sure like to know just what all the dozens of secrets were and how it affected both kids.

 

[LinasK]

I don't get why saying JBR was asleep and didn't wake up at all when they got in was so important. Would it matter if they said she was asleep in the car then woke up at home, and was put to bed? And therefore I don't get the denial of the Pineapple.

Surely if PR and JR are both complicit in JBR's death and cover up then they would spend time getting the story straight. They've had time to stage the crime allegedly, so why not spend 5 minutes or so getting the whole story straight?

I'm far more likely to think that sexually mature man is going to assault JBR's vagina rather than a 9 year old pre-pubescent boy. In fact I can't see how anyone could expect a 9 year old boy to keep up the act of not only sexually assaulting his sister but being a part of her death for all of these years without saying anything. He is a young child for goodness sake! He wouldn't have the emotional tools to cope with that unaided.

I think JR is the likely suspect. He is a powerful man, was called the "ice man" because of his cool demeanour. Lied about the window, went down to the cellar alone, then went down again and led FW to JBR's body when FW had already checked and not seen the body.

I totally agree and I've been a JDI from day 1!

 

[LinasK]

I am a BDI. I think he was the one sexually abusing JB, and the parents may not have known. Burke was strong enough to swing the flashlight and deliver the fatal wound, and there was a previous incident where he hit JB in the face with a golf club. He may have convinced her to come downstairs to look for presents as has been speculated by others, he drank tea she had pineapple, they went downstairs, JB unwraps the Barbie, Burke convinces JB to play, he sexually assaults his sister as she is strangled with the rope so she can't cry out and after seeing the damage he has caused he hits her on the head with the flashlight. He cleans her up and puts the large panties on her not thinking anything of it. He either left her there or put her in the winecellar himself. When the parents discovered JB gone they knew what had happened and cover up mode started. They sent Burke off before anyone could blink, salvaging their own reputations and turning JB into a legend. JMO

Except that it was fibers from John's shirt that were found in her panties...

 

[LinasK]

Actually, BR putting the size 12s on JB, majes sense. If they had opened presents, the panties would have been out, and being a 9 yr old boy, he would have noticed they were for girls, but not paid attention to the size. Her being cleaned and covered, but the garotte not being removed, also sounds like something a kid might do. Well, actually, it doesn't sound like anything anybody would do, but somebody did do these things, and a 9 yr old is as good a guess as any. I know PR was never ruled out as the writer of the note, but she wasn't definatively ruled in either. Was a kid as the author, ever considered? because there were parts in the letter, that sounded like something a kid might come up with. For instance, the part that said to not try to outsmart them, seemed really childish. Also, I remember reading that Victory SBTC, (in sailboating circles), is often used to signify a win and Signed By The Captain. A kid from a sailing family might be impressed by this, but in all honesty, I can't imagine an adult using such a familiar term. Anyway, I think PR wrote the note, but I'm trying to consider other possibilities. MOO.

No, the panties were in a drawer. Patsy bought them in a size 12 for her niece.

 

[UKGuy]

Sure JB could have eaten pineapple w/o the Rs knowledge. No question about it.

Burke might have fetched the bowl, but that needn't be the case. We don't know when his prints got on the bowl. His prints could have been on it prior to it being placed in the 'fridge.

Chrishope,
There is plenty we dont know, but in terms of probability and circumstance, just like the fibers place the parents in the wine-cellar, those fingerprints place Burke at the pineapple snack.

.

 

[UKGuy]

Yes, we ALL do. Straight from Mr. Kolar, himself! Please go on the top of WS page and listen to Tricia's 'Crime Radio' interview with Mr. Kolar. At 97:34 mark, you'll hear 'cynic' asking this particular question and you'll hear the Kolar's response.

I'm glad you asked for the 'source'. Because this discussion will help many others to remember that urine on the carpet next to WC is the valid evidence, not the 'moot point'....

OpenMind4U,
Yes, I heard Kolar answer cynic that there was a urine stain on the carpet, that was new for me, up until then, it was simply assumed the carpet might be wet, and it took on a life of its own, as fact over the years.

cynic's question about JonBenet's hair was even better. Kolar did not seem to give a definitive answer though. e.g. some hair was pulled and some was not. I've always assumed if the garrote was ever used, JonBenet's hair would have been pulled out at the roots, yet you can see in some pictures its embedded intto the knotting.


.

 

[Chrishope]

Chrishope,
There is plenty we dont know, but in terms of probability and circumstance, just like the fibers place the parents in the wine-cellar, those fingerprints place Burke at the pineapple snack.

.

No, they don't. They place him at "a" pineapple snack, but not necessarily "the" snack. It could easily be the case that PR asked him to put the bowl in the 'fridge before they left for the party at the Whites. I know you want badly to tie the pineapple to Burke because it fits your BDI scenario, but there are multiple scenarios that are possible. We don't know whether JB ate pineapple alone, with Burke, or with one or both parents.

You are also mistaken about the fiber evidence. The fibers don't necessarily place the parents in the basement. Secondary transfer could easily explain the fibers.