Identified! KY - Owensboro, Pleasant Valley Rd, WhtMale 25-40, UP87, curly hair, eyeglasses, Jan'90 - William Dennis Mathews

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I think it is close Carlk. I'm also trying to determine the shape of the center of the upper lip. The lips look close but hard to tell in the two photos.

By chance did you try overlapping them Carlk? I know it might be hard to do since they are not full facial photo's but I am still curious to see an overlap.
 
Mensch said:
Well, I am not sure this is even open for discussion considering your last post, but here goes:
Can you post your enlarged photos side by side? I think tat will make viewing them in perspective much easier. Also, I see what yoiu are calling vertical "scars" on the MP but follow the line up and it appears to be an aritfact of having enlarged the photo to the point of loosing sharpness. I do not see the bottom blur being a mole and if so, it is not placed correctly to match the MP. Your arrows even show the difference. Also note that if you look directly to the left of your arrow on the bottom of the lip of the UP, there is another 'mark' exactly the same as the one you are point to. It would help to see them side by side. Blemishes can be the single most important comp0onent of identification and yet the most difficult to prove.
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Pardon the apparent tone of my last post. I meant it in humor, but without the benefit of the tone of voice, it might sound more smart-assed then it was intended.

I see the vertical line that you indicate are artifacts of having enlarged the photo. There is such a line at the same spot on Keays' photo, but there is also discoloration. Also, there are several blemishes in the area below the UID's right corner of the mouth. I may have the pointer on the wrong one.

And also, there is color to the one mole in Keyes' photo, but I am guessing that it may have been knicked from shaving. I have a similar mole on the groove beneath my nose that constantly gets nicked with the razor.
 
Cubby said:
By chance did you try overlapping them Carlk? I know it might be hard to do since they are not full facial photo's but I am still curious to see an overlap.
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You can't do that in this instance because of the difference in angles both vertically and horizontally.
 
Here are the photos with the color inverted, as Mensch suggested. I'll leave out the arrows (and the snarky sounding comments) this time.

2435416610045078242S600x600Q851.jpg
 
CarlK90245 said:
Here are the photos with the color inverted, as Mensch suggested. I'll leave out the arrows (and the snarky sounding comments) this time.

2435416610045078242S600x600Q851.jpg
Click to expand...
No offense taken on the comment Carl. I did not think you were snarky; just a bit frustrated. It is hard to do all this work and then have someone (LE because THEY know better! *sigh*) wanting more before they consider looking.
Okay, what you have identified as moles do appear clearer to me in this tone. Whatever the spots are, I see three lined up at the bottom (viewing L) and two at the top on both. I am not sure. ***adding: I am not so concerned with the lips being a bit larger in the UP because if there was trauma to the face his lips would be swollen.
What is your impression of the ears when enlarged? I am not sure what the artist was trying to do with them. Any thoughts?
 
CarlK90245 said:
Here are the photos with the color inverted, as Mensch suggested. I'll leave out the arrows (and the snarky sounding comments) this time.

2435416610045078242S600x600Q851.jpg
Click to expand...

Thank you Carl. FWIW, I did not think your comment was snarky either and understood your frustration.

Regarding the above photo's. Am I seeing what I think may be a scar on both the UID and MP's chin? In the UID I see it coming out of the lower right corner. On the MP I see it about a cm or just shy of a half inch above the lower right corner. I'm not sure.... thoughts?

tia
 
Mensch said:
What is your impression of the ears when enlarged? I am not sure what the artist was trying to do with them. Any thoughts?
Click to expand...

2665080580045078242S600x600Q851.jpg


They look very similar in shape, although they are viewed from different angles so Keays' ears appear narrower due to foreshortening.

As for the ridges within the ears, I see common shapes, and some differences. I see a similar "Y" shaped ridge on both ears near the top, but the lower parts of the ear look different. BTW, the portion of the ear in front of the UID's ear canal doesn't look like a normal human ear shape to me.

Not sure how much of the differences are attributable to vantage point differences and how much are due to artist's retouching (although they don't appear to be retouched).

Cubby said:
Regarding the above photo's. Am I seeing what I think may be a scar on both the UID and MP's chin? In the UID I see it coming out of the lower right corner. On the MP I see it about a cm or just shy of a half inch above the lower right corner. I'm not sure.... thoughts?
Click to expand...


There is too much retouching on the chin to be able to differentiate what's real vs. what the artist put in.
 
CarlK90245 said:
2665080580045078242S600x600Q851.jpg


They look very similar in shape, although they are viewed from different angles so Keays' ears appear narrower due to foreshortening.

As for the ridges within the ears, I see common shapes, and some differences. I see a similar "Y" shaped ridge on both ears near the top, but the lower parts of the ear look different. BTW, the portion of the ear in front of the UID's ear canal doesn't look like a normal human ear shape to me.

Not sure how much of the differences are attributable to vantage point differences and how much are due to artist's retouching (although they don't appear to be retouched).




There is too much retouching on the chin to be able to differentiate what's real vs. what the artist put in.
Click to expand...

I can see a lot of thought went into this comparison. Thanks Carl, for breaking it down for us.
I understand what you are saying on the ear and I would not accept or rule it out as 'identifying'. The angle is just too off as well as the overall lack of clarity. I think the good side to this is the investigators will continue to look into this?

A bit off topic but still relevant to this case. I find LE just finds it nearly impossible to let go of the fact a missing person can end up across country when found deceased. A runaway does not leave home to hang around in town and there are reasons too numerous to mention as to why the UP' are many times found far from home. The purpose is to get away. I wish they would be more open to sharing their impression this was a 'local' death.
 
Mensch said:
A bit off topic but still relevant to this case. I find LE just finds it nearly impossible to let go of the fact a missing person can end up across country when found deceased. A runaway does not leave home to hang around in town and there are reasons too numerous to mention as to why the UP' are many times found far from home. The purpose is to get away. I wish they would be more open to sharing their impression this was a 'local' death.
Click to expand...

I think that this is what annoyed me so much about my discussion with him yesterday. He said that he had no evidence to suggest that he was buried locally, but they believe it and that's what they're going with. Also, his contention that this was a skeletal reconstruction was clearly wrong. An artist would never do a skeletal reconstruction with that angle and that facial expression, and with that level of detail in the skin texture. The caption indicated that it was a modified coroner's photo.

They said that he had a "drug history". Perhaps he was a dealer who needed to meet up with a major supplier (or for that matter, a major customer). If that was the case, I'm sure that he wouldn't have told his mother that he had to run to Kentucky to buy or sell a couple of kilos of cocaine.

If this turns out to not be him, it won't be the first time that I was absolutely certain about a match, and then it turned out that it wasn't. I have no problem with that. I was just annoyed at the apparent tunnel vision and unwillingness to abandon what is only a theory.
 
CarlK90245 said:
2665080580045078242S600x600Q851.jpg


They look very similar in shape, although they are viewed from different angles so Keays' ears appear narrower due to foreshortening.

As for the ridges within the ears, I see common shapes, and some differences. I see a similar "Y" shaped ridge on both ears near the top, but the lower parts of the ear look different. BTW, the portion of the ear in front of the UID's ear canal doesn't look like a normal human ear shape to me.

Not sure how much of the differences are attributable to vantage point differences and how much are due to artist's retouching (although they don't appear to be retouched).




There is too much retouching on the chin to be able to differentiate what's real vs. what the artist put in.
Click to expand...

Obviously I'm neither an ME nor an expert of any other sort, but the UID's ear looks to me like he was punched in the ear more than once before he died. Swollen and mis-shapen like after a really bad boxing match.
 
CarlK90245 said:
I called up Det Tattersall, and reported this to him. He didn't seem too impressed, as he had been in contact with the Kentucky authorities, and they say that his face had been "badly abused" and decomposed, so the facial reconstruction may not be accurate, and what looks like a mole is probably something else.

He also reiterated his belief that Keays is probably buried locally. He said "I looked back in the case file and the investigators all agree that he is probably buried somewhere nearby".

However, they have DNA on both Keyes and the UID, and they will go forward despite the doubts to positively confirm or rule-out.
Click to expand...

I called back Jim Tattersall to find out whether or not there was a positive rule-out. He replied only that based on what he knew about the case, that they decided that it wasn't worth pursuing.

So with Oregon unwilling to look at it, and Kentucky's policy of deferring responsibility for the follow-up to the agency in charge of the MP, that's as far as this one is going to go.
 
Carl, did you want to try KY again now that Emily Craig is gone?

Amy Burrows-Beckham was very appreciative of the submission I made and you might want to give her some of the history here.
 
webrocket said:
Carl, did you want to try KY again now that Emily Craig is gone?

Amy Burrows-Beckham was very appreciative of the submission I made and you might want to give her some of the history here.
Click to expand...


Excellent idea webrocket, great catch! Thanks for bumping the thread.

:yourock:
 
webrocket said:
Carl, did you want to try KY again now that Emily Craig is gone?

Amy Burrows-Beckham was very appreciative of the submission I made and you might want to give her some of the history here.
Click to expand...

I kicked off a detailed e-mail to Justice Burrows. Hopefully, she will be able to resolve it more definitively than Tatersall's JDLR method (i.e. Just Doesn't Look Right).
 
:bump: Been spending time on the Oregon cases and Timothy was next on my list.

Have you heard anything back yet, Carl?
 
Kimster said:
:bump: Been spending time on the Oregon cases and Timothy was next on my list.

Have you heard anything back yet, Carl?
Click to expand...

No, Justice Burrows never replied to my e-mail.
 
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