Kyron Horman's general discussion thread for 2014

Status
Not open for further replies.
FWIW ITA. I'm not convinced she is guilty but she is doing as advised. JMO


From what I remember about this case, I never saw anything pointing toward TM having anything to do with Kyron's disappearance other than Kayne and Desiree pointing their finger at Terri. I think a stranger took Kyron. If LE had any evidence showing Terri was responsible they would have arrested her long ago. Instead her life is turned upside down and she'll more than likely live under a cloud of suspicion the rest of her life.
 
From what I remember about this case, I never saw anything pointing toward TM having anything to do with Kyron's disappearance other than Kayne and Desiree pointing their finger at Terri. I think a stranger took Kyron. If LE had any evidence showing Terri was responsible they would have arrested her long ago. Instead her life is turned upside down and she'll more than likely live under a cloud of suspicion the rest of her life.


There was a flier that LE released that asked for information about the movements of Terri and Dede Spicher. It certainly pointed at Terri IMO.
http://www.kgw.com/news/Police-flier-shows-photos-of-Spicher-asks-questions-100372044.html
 
JMO but I think security really needs to be on top of this at schools everywhere. My grand child lives in the area where Kyron lived and it certainly
scares me. Because I think someone else may have had a hand in it as well as TMH. But thats just me.

The taxpayers have to,be willing to pay. So get a committee going and start getting the word out that this is a top priority,

Then work on getting the funding in place. It is up to you because you care. Others need to be shown the importance, perhaps. I live in a community of mainly people who have no children in schools.

We have new schools with good security . You should hear the people complain!!!!
 
Yes, there have been other attorneys on here that have disagreed, but as far as I am aware, they aren't criminal defense attorneys. I stand by my opinion. I may not be a verified poster, but I am an attorney who has been working in the criminal defense field for three years now. A good defense attorney wouldn't say "abandon your child." I never claimed that. A good defense attorney will tell a client to maintain their silence, which is what TH has done. Unfortunately, that has the side effect of limiting her ability to try and gain custody of her child. Given the serious criminal ramifications, a good defense attorney will prioritize keeping their client out of jail over child custody. As I've said before, it's quite hard to have a relationship with your child when you're in prison, wrongfully or not. If you're free, you have the chance to reconnect with the child - it's not about "making up for lost time." But you're never going to reconnect if you're in prison. By maintaining her silence, TH at least has a chance of that.

It's fine if you or others disagree. But as a criminal defense attorney, I can tell you, prioritizing your clients right to remain silent and keeping them out of jail is your job. Some of those actions may have sad ramifications in family court, but your job is to focus on the criminal charges. TH did what she should, guilty or innocent.

Wow! Not justice?
 
From what I remember about this case, I never saw anything pointing toward TM having anything to do with Kyron's disappearance other than Kayne and Desiree pointing their finger at Terri. I think a stranger took Kyron. If LE had any evidence showing Terri was responsible they would have arrested her long ago. Instead her life is turned upside down and she'll more than likely live under a cloud of suspicion the rest of her life.

From what I remember LE has some evidence. Just because there is some amount of evidence, doesn't mean there is enough proof to obtain an arrest warrant and/or prosecute someone for murder (especially without a body). Sometimes it can take LE 20 years to get enough evidence for a conviction. That doesn't mean they didn't have a suspect for those 20 years. We don't know what LE knows about this case.

Didn't Desiree hint had somethings LE had told her or shown her? Kayne and Desiree didn't point fingers until AFTER they met with LE. TM is living with a cloud of suspicion because she lied to LE from the very beginning. She wasn't where she said she was when Kyron went missing. She has refused to testify for her divorce proceedings by taking the 5th. If she is completely innocent why the lies? Why not fight for custody of your own baby? Something with TM is off. These statements are my humble opinion only.
 
Yes, there have been other attorneys on here that have disagreed, but as far as I am aware, they aren't criminal defense attorneys. I stand by my opinion. I may not be a verified poster, but I am an attorney who has been working in the criminal defense field for three years now. A good defense attorney wouldn't say "abandon your child." I never claimed that. A good defense attorney will tell a client to maintain their silence, which is what TH has done. Unfortunately, that has the side effect of limiting her ability to try and gain custody of her child. Given the serious criminal ramifications, a good defense attorney will prioritize keeping their client out of jail over child custody. As I've said before, it's quite hard to have a relationship with your child when you're in prison, wrongfully or not. If you're free, you have the chance to reconnect with the child - it's not about "making up for lost time." But you're never going to reconnect if you're in prison. By maintaining her silence, TH at least has a chance of that.

It's fine if you or others disagree. But as a criminal defense attorney, I can tell you, prioritizing your clients right to remain silent and keeping them out of jail is your job. Some of those actions may have sad ramifications in family court, but your job is to focus on the criminal charges. TH did what she should, guilty or innocent.

Why would her attorney assume that Terri would go to jail if she's innocent and there's no evidence against her? Why would it be so important for an innocent person to stop working with LE to find a missing child? Since LE doesn't have enough evidence to convict her, what would her attorney think Terri would say that would convince them she could be convicted in a trial? It really doesn't make sense. Or, more precisely, it only makes sense if she's guilty. It makes no sense if she's innocent. If her attorney thinks that her keeping silent is the only thing keeping her out of prison, that speaks volumes.

I get that as a defense attorney, their job would not be to find a missing child or keep a family intact or make moral or humane decisions. But Terri is (was) a mother. Someone told her to, essentially: keep your mouth shut, forget about your child, don't look for Kyron, don't help the search for Kyron to move forward, don't give any evidence that might help identify the kidnapper/murderer even though you were the last known person to see him - yes, you'll betray and abandon your daughter and stepson, but you'll do it to save yourself from the slight potential that you might be put on trial. Sounds like the worst moral advice ever, even if it's perfectly legal. And even if the attorney didn't use those words, that was clearly the understood meaning as that's the natural progression (and exactly what as happened) from the choice to put herself above her children. Terri had the choice to follow the advice and lose her family, or do the right thing and risk herself to be a mother and find Kyron and/or his kidnapper/killer.

Also, she's had less of a relationship with her daughter than she would have in prison. In prison she would have had visiting hours with her child. How many visiting hours has she had with her child in the last 4 years? Zero. And she CHOSE that route and her daughter will know it. Her mother chose to stop mothering her. Her mother refused to help police find her older brother. If her mother was "wrongfully convicted" but still did all in her power to find Kyron and be a mother to her daughter in the process, she'd have a chance to have the trust and maybe even love of her daughter. Now - it's gone. With good reason.
 
I've been reading older threads and have some ?s. Anyone know what type of phone TH had? Asking because even then phones would post pics to Facebook.
Was the baby with her at the school and was she fussy. People are going to notice a teething toddler.
Did she carry his project in any type of container?
Was she wearing workout clothes at the school if not where were the clothes she was wearing?
 
Wow! Not justice?

I'm not sure what you're asking here (if you're asking anything, not sure if this is rhetorical?). As an attorney, your job is to represent your client. A prosecutor's job is to pursue justice for the victim. A defense attorney's job is to represent their client. Sometimes that coincides with justice (but what is justice? It's a harder concept than you would think!), but other times, some people would find that justice wasn't served by advocating for your client. Most criminal cases are shades of gray.

Funny enough, I was very, very strongly interested in prosecution before I took my job. But the job market was tight and it was in the criminal field, so I took the defense clerkship. And I found that cases were far more complicated from the inside than they sometimes appear. Sometimes, there is no justice. Sometimes, the remedy the law provides doesn't help at all. Sometimes innocent men go to prison, and guilty men go free. It's complicated and sometimes it grinds you down. But as a defense attorney, your focus isn't justice, it's your client. You have to put them first, even if they are guilty. That can be tough sometimes. But it's a very important part of our justice system; our founding fathers felt strongly about this - just think about John Adams' defense of the British soldiers in the Boston Massacre case.
 
Why would her attorney assume that Terri would go to jail if she's innocent and there's no evidence against her? Why would it be so important for an innocent person to stop working with LE to find a missing child? Since LE doesn't have enough evidence to convict her, what would her attorney think Terri would say that would convince them she could be convicted in a trial? It really doesn't make sense. Or, more precisely, it only makes sense if she's guilty. It makes no sense if she's innocent. If her attorney thinks that her keeping silent is the only thing keeping her out of prison, that speaks volumes.

I get that as a defense attorney, their job would not be to find a missing child or keep a family intact or make moral or humane decisions. But Terri is (was) a mother. Someone told her to, essentially: keep your mouth shut, forget about your child, don't look for Kyron, don't help the search for Kyron to move forward, don't give any evidence that might help identify the kidnapper/murderer even though you were the last known person to see him - yes, you'll betray and abandon your daughter and stepson, but you'll do it to save yourself from the slight potential that you might be put on trial. Sounds like the worst moral advice ever, even if it's perfectly legal. And even if the attorney didn't use those words, that was clearly the understood meaning as that's the natural progression (and exactly what as happened) from the choice to put herself above her children. Terri had the choice to follow the advice and lose her family, or do the right thing and risk herself to be a mother and find Kyron and/or his kidnapper/killer.

Also, she's had less of a relationship with her daughter than she would have in prison. In prison she would have had visiting hours with her child. How many visiting hours has she had with her child in the last 4 years? Zero. And she CHOSE that route and her daughter will know it. Her mother chose to stop mothering her. Her mother refused to help police find her older brother. If her mother was "wrongfully convicted" but still did all in her power to find Kyron and be a mother to her daughter in the process, she'd have a chance to have the trust and maybe even love of her daughter. Now - it's gone. With good reason.

First off, a defense attorney doesn't really pick a side in the whole guilty vs. innocent debate. Clients relate their version of events; sometimes they lie. Most times, unless they've confessed to you, you have a gut feeling about the case, but you never can truly know for sure if they say they didn't do it what the truth really is. The thing is, even if a client is innocent, there's a reason that LE has focused on them. Often, there is circumstantial evidence, or perhaps even actual evidence, which may link them to the crime.

As for cooperating with investigations, there's a delicate balance. You want to help solve a crime to move the focus off your client, and to help LE close their case. But you also don't want to give LE any information that can be used against you down the road if they decide to charge your client. LE might not have enough evidence to convict, but those statements made in interviews can be shaped and slanted in all sorts of ways that may tip the balance for the prosecutor, who could then decide to bring charges. Right now, we say LE doesn't have enough evidence and that is why the case hasn't been brought. But if TH had cooperated further, and they had more hours of interview footage to pick apart for inconsistencies and circumstantial evidence, it's unknown if that would still be the case. She cooperated some and presumably gave them all the info she could. If she were innocent, that's all you can do. As I said previously on the thread, it's very similar to a case that we're dealing with - we had a lawyer sit in with the client during some interviewing, and then invoked the right to remain silent. We feel the client is innocent, but there's too much danger and risk in taking a polygraph or being interviewed over and over, when LE are looking at the client as a potential suspect. If you allow that as a defense attorney, all you're doing is opening up your client to liability. You're not there to find Kyron, you're there to protect TH - and that means remaining silent. With little to no physical evidence, and limited circumstantial evidence, you want to limit what LE can compile against her. This is a fairly standard practice, whether the client has admitted to you that s/he is guilty, or is maintaining their innocence. Silence is not indicative of guilty. There's tons and tons of case law on this. You cannot infer from invoking a right to silence that someone is guilty.

Again, TH's defense attorney did not tell her to abandon her child. TH's attorney told her - the more she communicated with LE, the more information they could build against her. It's easy to shade statements and poke holes in inconsistent statements. Further communication with LE does nothing but paint a target on your back. If she has told LE all she can, further communication isn't going to help find Kyron if they've focused on her as a suspect.

And again, hypothetically, although TH may have had visiting hours in prison (and that's if Kaine doesn't challenge her parental rights), just because she had those hours doesn't mean that anyone is bringing baby K to see her. Do you really think Kaine would bring the baby to visit her in prison if she were convicted of killing or kidnapping Kyron? Having visiting hours is not the same as having willing relatives bring your small children for visitation. If TH goes to prison, she's not seeing baby K at all. And again, hypothetically if she were innocent, how does cooperating with LE, being charged and possibly convicted, and then going to prison help her see her child more? Do you really think Kaine wouldn't do everything he could to limit visitation? It's unrealistic to think that if she were convicted and imprisoned, somehow that would be better for her relationship with her child.

It's easy to see things in black and white and to say what you would do if you were a target of an investigation. As a law-abiding person, it's easy to think that you can just cooperate with LE, and your problems are solved. It's not that simple, and being open like you want TH to be can easily drag out into a costly, time consuming, stressful trial and possible imprisonment. From a criminal defense perspective, maintaining her silence is exactly what she should do.

To be clear, I don't know if she's guilty or innocent. But her actions in invoking her right to remain silent can't point me in either direction, because she's doing exactly what she should. That's all I have been saying in this thread. Remaining silent is the best thing for her to do, particularly if she is innocent. There's too much at stake otherwise.
 
Perhaps if Terri didn't have inconsistent statements, conflicting accounts of her whereabouts, multiple failed polygraphs, and an investigation against her for a murder-for-hire plot, she wouldn't have needed to hire a criminal defense lawyer. Did Kaine, Desiree, or Tony need one? Nope. Just saying, and it's my opinion only.
 
I've read the linked article. Can you point out what you think is inconsistent?

1. The parts about if the attorney knows the person is guilty and what an attorney cannot do

2. It is not about defending the client. It is about having the prosecution prove that they have the goods to convict. That is much different than defending someone, IMHO.

It defines , to me, that it is felt that the prosecution does not have enough evidence to convict her. Not that they don't have evidence.

After Casey, I wonder how much evidence is enough. And look at Jodi Arias. What in the heck does prosecution need? Even photos are not enough!
 
1. The parts about if the attorney knows the person is guilty and what an attorney cannot do

2. It is not about defending the client. It is about having the prosecution prove that they have the goods to convict. That is much different than defending someone, IMHO.

It defines , to me, that it is felt that the prosecution does not have enough evidence to convict her. Not that they don't have evidence.

After Casey, I wonder how much evidence is enough. And look at Jodi Arias. What in the heck does prosecution need? Even photos are not enough!

1. If an attorney knows the client is guilty, you cannot let him/her onto the stand and lie, and you cannot state that they're innocent in court (i.e., lie yourself). I've never claimed otherwise. My statements regarding TH's attorney's hypothetical actions are in accordance with that article.

2. I disagree. But that's wading into a semantics issue, and frankly, I think that would be getting too far afield from Kyron's case.

This all arose from me pointing out that TH's silence was likely on the recommendation of her attorney, and that advice was sound whether she was innocent or guilty. Others disagree. I think that has been an interesting discussion, but I think unless we have something new to talk about, this should probably be tabled for now. Feel free to PM me, if you all want. I don't want to drag this thread into a debate about criminal defense attorneys, and go too far off topic. I've been following this case from day one, and what I want most is for Kyron to be found. If TH did it, I hope they are able to get the evidence to prove it. If she didn't, I hope they catch the guilty party (I still hold out hope this might be a Shawn Hornbeck type case).
 
My point is that the issue is if there is enough evidence to prosecute.

That is what the court system is all about.

That is why there is reasonable doubt.

Is there a reasonable alternative to the evidence presented by the State?

The prosecution does not have enough evidence that they feel is enough to override the Casey Anthony effect.

It is said that the CSI and such programs have really impacted jurors.

looking at the case if Josh Powell, I am astounded that LE did not arrest him.

Perhaps they were waiting for him to slip up and lead them to Susan's body.
 
I'm not sure what you're asking here (if you're asking anything, not sure if this is rhetorical?). As an attorney, your job is to represent your client. A prosecutor's job is to pursue justice for the victim. A defense attorney's job is to represent their client. Sometimes that coincides with justice (but what is justice? It's a harder concept than you would think!), but other times, some people would find that justice wasn't served by advocating for your client. Most criminal cases are shades of gray.

Funny enough, I was very, very strongly interested in prosecution before I took my job. But the job market was tight and it was in the criminal field, so I took the defense clerkship. And I found that cases were far more complicated from the inside than they sometimes appear. Sometimes, there is no justice. Sometimes, the remedy the law provides doesn't help at all. Sometimes innocent men go to prison, and guilty men go free. It's complicated and sometimes it grinds you down. But as a defense attorney, your focus isn't justice, it's your client. You have to put them first, even if they are guilty. That can be tough sometimes. But it's a very important part of our justice system; our founding fathers felt strongly about this - just think about John Adams' defense of the British soldiers in the Boston Massacre case.

Your and Ami's exchange is very enlightening. Thank you both for the posts. It's taken me awhile to understand your line of thinking, but I do believe I do at this point. That said, and legal guidance aside, I can't think of any INNOCENT mother who wouldn't risk going to jail vs. giving up seeing their child. An innocent mother would be taking polygraphs, standing on the rooftops shouting, etc. This of course, is opinion only.
Thank you again for your interesting posts. Your viewpoint gives us another perspective, an is appreciated.
 
Jmo but I think TH may lose interest in children, even her own, after a certain age. Maybe her interest resumes when they are older, i.e. teens or so. She may not find it unbearable to be away from a child who is an active toddler for some period of years, who knows? Nothing about her strikes me as especially "average" in that she seems to be a bit of an oddball from way back. She wanted Kaine, then she didn't anymore, it seems. Maybe she is just that way. I just do not see a reason to get rid of Kyron that would really benefit her, especially at that time. He was getting ready to go away for much of the summer to be with Desiree. He was gone every few weekends. Nothing shocking has come out that Kyron may have known about, except maybe her drinking, but Kaine was hiding that as well. I agree she has to be the obvious suspect if she cannot be cleared, but I would need much more than we know now to convict her. Jmo
 
1. The parts about if the attorney knows the person is guilty and what an attorney cannot do

2. It is not about defending the client. It is about having the prosecution prove that they have the goods to convict. That is much different than defending someone, IMHO.

It defines , to me, that it is felt that the prosecution does not have enough evidence to convict her. Not that they don't have evidence.

After Casey, I wonder how much evidence is enough. And look at Jodi Arias. What in the heck does prosecution need? Even photos are not enough!

I'm curious where you get the idea the prosecution waits to file charges until they know they have enough to convict? A conviction is never guaranteed, which is what happened in the Anthony case. I have yet to see a guaranteed conviction happen in any murder case I've followed. Just in the last week, we've seen Ross Harris charged and denied bail in his son's death and the Judge even said it is a possible death penalty case yet detectives are still obtaining search warrants and gathering evidence because they know a conviction isn't guaranteed.

In the murders I've followed, the prosecution doesn't hesitate to file charges even while they continue to investigate because they have a duty to protect the public from further harm by that person. But they do have to have some evidence and evidently there is little evidence against Terri Horman to file charges.


JMO
 
I'm curious where you get the idea the prosecution waits to file charges until they know they have enough to convict? A conviction is never guaranteed, which is what happened in the Anthony case. I have yet to see a guaranteed conviction happen in any murder case I've followed. Just in the last week, we've seen Ross Harris charged and denied bail in his son's death and the Judge even said it is a possible death penalty case yet detectives are still obtaining search warrants and gathering evidence because they know a conviction isn't guaranteed.

In the murders I've followed, the prosecution doesn't hesitate to file charges even while they continue to investigate because they have a duty to protect the public from further harm by that person. But they do have to have some evidence and evidently there is little evidence against Terri Horman to file charges.


JMO

For Ross Harris, the judge granted the ability to arrest him. It is not a trial yet. For all we know, he will be released before a trial. I doubt it, but who knows.

I did not follow Casey because when read a toddler was missing for thirty days, but no one cared, there was no doubt in my mind who was at fault.

No accounting for stupid.

There is not a lot of money nowadays, States are figuring out how to release even the most vile of criminals,

No one has the money to go to trial without a good case,

Apparently, even Josh Powell did not qualify for arrest.
 
For Ross Harris, the judge granted the ability to arrest him. It is not a trial yet. For all we know, he will be released before a trial. I doubt it, but who knows.

I did not follow Casey because when read a toddler was missing for thirty days, but no one cared, there was no doubt in my mind who was at fault.

No accounting for stupid.

There is not a lot of money nowadays, States are figuring out how to release even the most vile of criminals,

No one has the money to go to trial without a good case,

Apparently, even Josh Powell did not qualify for arrest.


I asked you where you get the idea a prosecutor waits to file charges until he has enough to ensure a conviction. An arrest does require some evidence but the hurdle isn't that high.

The Judge denied bail to Ross Harris. He isn't going to be released prior to trial, we do already know that. Cops are still investigating and gathering evidence.

I'm pretty sure Josh Powell wasn't arrested because there was no proof his wife was dead. Her body was never found. It is not a crime for an adult to go missing on her own.

Either there is evidence or not that Terri tried to hire a hit man to kill her husband. The fact that she hasn't been arrested four years later and no hit was ever attempted on her husband is an indication there is little to no actual evidence to obtain a warrant or indictment. There was a grand jury proceeding tied to this case, iirc.

JMO
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
89
Guests online
2,415
Total visitors
2,504

Forum statistics

Threads
595,435
Messages
18,024,595
Members
229,648
Latest member
kelc3769
Back
Top