Laura Babcock Murder Trial - *GUILTY*

[Inspector_North]

Kind of off Topic:

I wonder if DM started to hone his pied piper skills with Mr. Burns's children? I know he has several, but we only heard the ages of couple of them. DM mentioned his promise to his female cousin while in his first year of jail, and his text to another about "smuggling drugs, and killing hookers" seems to me he had some kind of loyalty and possibly admiration for them.

He was living with the family, and a serious falling out with Robert occurred when DM was 17. Do we know if the cousin in the text is Mr. Burn's son or daughter? There was mention of cousins from France IIRC. MOO

 

[londongal]

I've tried to review the trial without emotion and excluding any knowledge of the TB trial or DM or MS. I came to these conclusions:

LB is no longer with us
DM killed her
MS may not have directly killed her but was there so could also go down for M1.

I couldn't figure out if enough evidence was presented to meet the criteria for M1 for MS.

I'd love to hear others thoughts as they process the trial like a juror should!

I agree 100% with you. MS maybe quilt of conspiracy to commit murder and accessory after the fact.

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[DeaconBrodie]

I've tried to review the trial without emotion and excluding any knowledge of the TB trial or DM or MS. I came to these conclusions:

LB is no longer with us
DM killed her
MS may not have directly killed her but was there so could also go down for M1.

I couldn't figure out if enough evidence was presented to meet the criteria for M1 for MS.

I'd love to hear others thoughts as they process the trial like a juror should!

I'm going to assume that they are already settled on M1 for DM and they are on to what Justice Code described as 'the closer one' with MS.

My experience is that when there is clear evidence that an accused has behaved badly, a judge or jury eventually finds them guilty even if the evidence is a little sparse. MS definitely behaved badly and does not come to Court with clean hands. I still think they'll get to M1 for MS.

If you sleep with dogs, you'll get fleas.

 

[Georgeo]

I'm sorry Betty but I have to take exception to some o what you have said. I taught high school for 8 years, I was union rep for my school, my daughter is a teacher and I have lots friends who are teachers and retired teachers so I know somewhat of what I speak.

Poor Pay - currently in my jurisdiction teachers with 10+ years experience earn $105k per year. That's not underpaid especially when you consider 3 months of holidays, or if one accepts your rationale that they aren't paid for summers then that's pretty rich for 9 months of work.

Zero bonuses - teachers receive the best bonuses possible in the form of appreciation from their students and knowing that they are changing lives. I have on a few occasions had former students recognize me in stores 25 years after I taught them come up to me and tell me what an impact I had on their lives and I can't for the life of me remember who they are. That is bonus that I never get in my current line of work an is worth plenty ore than a monetary bonus.

Summers aren't paid - it may vary by jurisdiction but summers are paid for otherwise teachers would be eligible for EI benefits during the summer as they would be unemployed.

Subpar Benefits - when I taught the benefits were top notch and equal to or better than most corporate plans.

Teachers work half the summer - not any of the ones that I ever taught with.

You left out the gold plated, fully indexed pension that teachers receive and the fact that they never have to worry about layoffs or downturns in the economy.

Don't get me wrong, I know teachers do a fantastic an vital job under ever more difficult circumstances, but I just don't buy the claims that teachers are hard done by.

My father in law was a high school teacher and all of the above, I am in total agreement with. He in fact received a huge payout for all the unused sick days he accumulated over his career. This has since been cancelled. The pension is truly gold plated.

 

[MsSherlock]

I would be happily surprised by a verdict today, but I think it is probably still too early. The evidence and the charge were both complicated, and my guess is that we’ll see that reflected in the length of deliberation.

I don't know- I'm still trying to figure out why they would request closing arguments. Did one or more believe they heard something in the closing arguments that Codes hadn't addressed in his Charge? Dungey's was basically, MS wasn't involved, didn't know LB etc. DM was "LB isn't even dead" and "that was a deer in the incinerator" and Cameron's was a complete before, during and after synopsis of the murder. Maybe the Jury is questioning why CN wasn't there since DM eluded to the fact that the Crown didn't call her because they were hiding something from the Jury.

I find their request concerning. From my experience on various Boards that coincidently seem to always have 12 Directors, it's been my experience that usually all Directors are unanimous on an issue; but if its a more contiguous issue, there's usually 2 or 3 voting against it, very seldom 1.

The 2 or 3 usually state some type of fear for not going with the majority. It's the "what if" seconded by "not having enough information" to make such a serious decision. I can see a Jury being the same and just like a Board of Directors, it really depends on the leadership abilities of the ones opposed. Can they convince the rest that they should have this fear as well.

The fear is real for them- are they making a mistake and convicting an innocent person? The argument would be that there's doubt that LB is even dead. What if she showed up tomorrow? The second concern is that there's no indication aside for "that girl" indicating that MS even knew LB. Dungey said as much and DM's closing was that LB wasn't dead.

I'm trusting that there's some good leadership skills on the Jury that can assist on connecting the dots for those that may have fears or doubts. IMO, this 3rd full day of deliberation is very important. This Jury has sat thru a long trial. Some may have lost the Juror they were closest to when the cuts were made. 3 days and nights being sequestered (FWIW, I can't imagine being locked up with my fellow Directors until we made a unanimous decision on something that pales in comparison to a verdict in a murder trial!)

This is so much more difficult than the TB trial, where even MS via his testimony said he was there. Hopefully they're not stuck on the whether or not LB is deceased and it's just MS. Then, hopefully if it's just MS, they can put all the puzzle pieces together to calm the fears of anyone who are concerned about his involvement. I'm not holding out a lot of hope for today and because it's so close to Christmas, some Jurors may be getting a tad bit impatient; that may slow things down as well. I'll be thrilled if I'm wrong! MOO

 

[ab-initio]

I found this to be another interesting article. http://nationalpost.com/news/canada...rn-to-world-of-fast-cars-and-exotic-adventure

It's rather telling that 71% of his responses do not simply answer the question he was asked.

You're a special snowflake, DM. I'm sorry that with all the grey area in your life that your M1 convictions are going to be very black and white.

 

[ab-initio]

Does anyone think it is troubling that the jury is out for this long? What does this mean ?, god forbid they don't find DM guilty of M1.
They are taking longer from the Bosma trial that was months long. Is this a sign that they are not going to find DM and MS guilty of M1?

They have been out less than 72 hours.
They are 12 people deciding the fate of the lives of 2 other people.

Think about that.

Collectively, we are a society that revels in and thrives on instant gratification; the want of a quickly returned verdict is no different.
But I wish for them to take the time they need to make a thought out decision that they can leave this process feeling proud of, secure in their knowledge that they made the right choice about the lives of 2 other human beings.
This process is life-changing. Whatever is decided is a life sentence for the jurors, too.

I don't find it troubling that they've been out "this long," because I don't find the time they've been deliberating to be unreasonable at all.

 

[JPC]

They have been out less than 72 hours.
They are 12 people deciding the fate of the lives of 2 other people.

Think about that.

Collectively, we are a society that revels in and thrives on instant gratification; the want of a quickly returned verdict is no different.
But I wish for them to take the time they need to make a thought out decision that they can leave this process feeling proud of, secure in their knowledge that they made the right choice about the lives of 2 other human beings.
This process is life-changing. Whatever is decided is a life sentence for the jurors, too.

I don't find it troubling that they've been out "this long," because I don't find the time they've been deliberating to be unreasonable at all.

I agree with you about length of time to deliberate. This is a tricky case with no body, no DNA etc. They are likely doing their due diligence and my guess is that MS may take a little longer.


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[Grey-St]

I'm sorry Betty but I have to take exception to some o what you have said. I taught high school for 8 years, I was union rep for my school, my daughter is a teacher and I have lots friends who are teachers and retired teachers so I know somewhat of what I speak.

Poor Pay - currently in my jurisdiction teachers with 10+ years experience earn $105k per year. That's not underpaid especially when you consider 3 months of holidays, or if one accepts your rationale that they aren't paid for summers then that's pretty rich for 9 months of work.

Zero bonuses - teachers receive the best bonuses possible in the form of appreciation from their students and knowing that they are changing lives. I have on a few occasions had former students recognize me in stores 25 years after I taught them come up to me and tell me what an impact I had on their lives and I can't for the life of me remember who they are. That is bonus that I never get in my current line of work an is worth plenty ore than a monetary bonus.

Summers aren't paid - it may vary by jurisdiction but summers are paid for otherwise teachers would be eligible for EI benefits during the summer as they would be unemployed.

Subpar Benefits - when I taught the benefits were top notch and equal to or better than most corporate plans.

Teachers work half the summer - not any of the ones that I ever taught with.

You left out the gold plated, fully indexed pension that teachers receive and the fact that they never have to worry about layoffs or downturns in the economy.

Don't get me wrong, I know teachers do a fantastic an vital job under ever more difficult circumstances, but I just don't buy the claims that teachers are hard done by.

Off topic and I apologize to folks who feel so, but out of curiosity, why did you leave teaching DB? I also agree with your points. Teachers are vital, and all fields of work have elements of being under-appreciated, but I think teachers bode quite well these days.

 

[Alice Ramnit]

Does anyone think it is troubling that the jury is out for this long? What does this mean ?, god forbid they don't find DM guilty of M1.
They are taking longer from the Bosma trial that was months long. Is this a sign that they are not going to find DM and MS guilty of M1?

It is taking longer than I had expected too. I have confidence that the Jury is just making sure that they have it 100% right and that there won't be room for an appeal. lease:

 

[dar107]

I do want the jury to find M1 for both. I am the teeniest concerned they may not for MS.

If they did come back M1 for DM and Not guilty for MS, I think DM's head will explode... probably get the full story via an outrageous outburst in the courtroom, my gosh I cannot imagine his reaction!

 

[A Concerned Citizen]

Hi all. First post. Have followed both trials from the beginning, and appreciate the posts from most members.

I found this to be another interesting article. http://nationalpost.com/news/canada...rn-to-world-of-fast-cars-and-exotic-adventure
This was in 2015 and It looks like he really feels like he's been done wrong in all aspects of his life, his crimes and his media portrayal. Obviously he still feels this way. I find it interesting that he feels he convinced prison staff of his innocence and seems to be very concerned about what people think of him. The portion where he said that soon people will be saying good things about him again... seems very telling. He lives a double life for sure. One of what he wants people to see and think and one that he really is.

I think this is what does my head in most in trying to understand DM. I've gone back to articles from that period, and I get stuck on his claims that (paraphrasing) "someday people will remember me fondly again".
Surely at some point when so much evidence against you has made its way not only into the public forum but into a court of law you've gotta accept some responsibility. To do otherwise - to maintain innocence! - suggests a serious disconnect with reality.
And yet he's clearly not insane. He's proven himself to be fairly high functioning. So I really don't see what he can hope to gain from maintaining this stance at this point in the proceedings. He's offered no plausible alternative to the facts. He still stands by how unfair this has all been on him.
I know, I know: don't try to understand a sociopath's actions through a rational lens.

 

[RandomName479]

I'm sorry Betty but I have to take exception to some o what you have said. I taught high school for 8 years, I was union rep for my school, my daughter is a teacher and I have lots friends who are teachers and retired teachers so I know somewhat of what I speak.

Poor Pay - currently in my jurisdiction teachers with 10+ years experience earn $105k per year. That's not underpaid especially when you consider 3 months of holidays, or if one accepts your rationale that they aren't paid for summers then that's pretty rich for 9 months of work.

Zero bonuses - teachers receive the best bonuses possible in the form of appreciation from their students and knowing that they are changing lives. I have on a few occasions had former students recognize me in stores 25 years after I taught them come up to me and tell me what an impact I had on their lives and I can't for the life of me remember who they are. That is bonus that I never get in my current line of work an is worth plenty ore than a monetary bonus.

Summers aren't paid - it may vary by jurisdiction but summers are paid for otherwise teachers would be eligible for EI benefits during the summer as they would be unemployed.

Subpar Benefits - when I taught the benefits were top notch and equal to or better than most corporate plans.

Teachers work half the summer - not any of the ones that I ever taught with.

You left out the gold plated, fully indexed pension that teachers receive and the fact that they never have to worry about layoffs or downturns in the economy.

Don't get me wrong, I know teachers do a fantastic an vital job under ever more difficult circumstances, but I just don't buy the claims that teachers are hard done by.

Completley agree DeaconBrodie.....I have many teacher friends and my SO is a teacher.....he gets paid over 100k a year (and has 2 full months off during the summer....couple weeks at xmas and spring break) and has full benefits and a full pension.....he absolutely puts in a few hours over the summer but not anything like what is being described......They do great work but are generally well-compensated (at least where we live......)

 

[winter2017]

It is taking longer than I had expected too. I have confidence that the Jury is just making sure that they have it 100% right and that there won't be room for an appeal. lease:

They cannot beleive that Laura is still alive.
She would not have done this to her family I don't believe it at all. she would not be that cruel.
That story was just made up by the accused , like the crazy story by MS about burying the gun in the forest.

 

[Alice Ramnit]

Hi all. First post. Have followed both trials from the beginning, and appreciate the posts from most members.



I think this is what does my head in most in trying to understand DM. I've gone back to articles from that period, and I get stuck on his claims that (paraphrasing) "someday people will remember me fondly again".
Surely at some point when so much evidence against you has made its way not only into the public forum but into a court of law you've gotta accept some responsibility. To do otherwise - to maintain innocence! - suggests a serious disconnect with reality.
And yet he's clearly not insane. He's proven himself to be fairly high functioning. So I really don't see what he can hope to gain from maintaining this stance at this point in the proceedings. He's offered no plausible alternative to the facts. He still stands by how unfair this has all been on him.
I know, I know: don't try to understand a sociopath's actions through a rational lens.

Welcome and thanks for posting. Yep...we can't 'understand' because we aren't 'wired' the same way a Sociopatic Narcissist is!

 

[DeaconBrodie]

why did you leave teaching DB[/U]? I also agree with your points. Teachers are vital, and all fields of work have elements of being under-appreciated, but I think teachers bode quite well these days.

After 8 years I just felt that it had lost its challenge for me. I spent my last 4 years teaching in a school for kids that had been kicked out of every other school in the jurisdiction and I mastered that and I just wanted another challenge.

Teaching never leaves you though and I have taught a few courses in y spare time at University over the years which I have really enjoyed.

 

[Grey-St]

I do want the jury to find M1 for both. I am the teeniest concerned they may not for MS.

If they did come back M1 for DM and Not guilty for MS, I think DM's head will explode... probably get the full story via an outrageous outburst in the courtroom, my gosh I cannot imagine his reaction!

HA! Wow, this is so accurate. That would certainly be something to read about!

 

[meterclicks]

Susan Clairmont‏ @susanclairmont

The #Bosma verdict came in on a Friday afternoon. Perhaps today will be verdict day for the Laura #Babcock trial as well. Follow my pal @HefCHCHNews for breaking news.


Lisa Hepfner‏ @HefCHCHNews
Back at 361 University for #LauraBabcock jury watch, day 4. @CHCHNews


Court staff say the #LauraBabcock jury will be on a break from 11:30am until noon.


Shannon Martin‏ @ShannonMartinTV
Small group of us standing by outside courtroom 2-7 since 9 a.m. Media only at the moment @HefCHCHNews @liamdevlincasey @AustinCTV We'll post updates as we get them.

Shannon Martin‏ @ShannonMartinTV
First update from court at the Laura Babcock murder trial. Staff just let media know the jury is taking a break from 1130 to 1200 ET.
#LauraBabcock

 

[Grey-St]

Hi all. First post. Have followed both trials from the beginning, and appreciate the posts from most members.

I think this is what does my head in most in trying to understand DM. I've gone back to articles from that period, and I get stuck on his claims that (paraphrasing) "someday people will remember me fondly again".
Surely at some point when so much evidence against you has made its way not only into the public forum but into a court of law you've gotta accept some responsibility. To do otherwise - to maintain innocence! - suggests a serious disconnect with reality.
And yet he's clearly not insane. He's proven himself to be fairly high functioning. So I really don't see what he can hope to gain from maintaining this stance at this point in the proceedings. He's offered no plausible alternative to the facts. He still stands by how unfair this has all been on him.
I know, I know: don't try to understand a sociopath's actions through a rational lens.

Those who possess narcissism and psychopathy are usually VERY high functioning. Far from mentally ill, however! DM is completely delusional, IMO. He's probably lived his entire life getting away problematic and likely criminal behaviour without consequences, and just figured these crimes would be no different. He believes he's heaven sent, and that others in society will view him that way also. The lawyers, the judges, the jury: they've just got it all wrong.

 

[FastLikeLight]

Considering that even charge was several days, and the jury has really a lot of to consider. Hopefully they will come afternoon with M1s, and Babcocks will skip their statement to send those two for another life immediately.