Madeleine McCann: German Prisoner Identified as Suspect #32

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Yes it seems the court found the men must have watched 3 rapes between them


Both watched the teenager but one watched an older corpulent woman who spoke English and wore swimming Googles with paint while the other watched a somewhat younger woman who spoke Italian?

Neither saw the American woman.

Key to credibility appears to be the similarity to the American rape which they could not have known about.

I wonder what they have to corroborate this. Its a bit flimsy without complainants compared to HB and the American
Yes, that's what I thought too but I'm a bit confused re the 'Italian lady' as per my query above to @Niner.

Re corroboration, I guess they must have something else since they clearly haven't tracked down the 2 unknown rape victims in the charge sheet. I did wonder if maybe they'd had a real breakthrough and actually found the two victims but the date range - sometime between Dec. 28, 2000 to April 8, 2006 - implies otherwise.
 
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I must have gotten the "Italian lady" from a news article that someone posted here when the charge sheet mentioned a 70-80 year old woman. i can always change it - if you find anything different. Or actually take out the words "Italian woman".
Thanks, Niner. As I said, I thought the 'Italian lady' was the one in the farmhouse, not the elderly rape victim in the charge sheet.

I'm sure someone else will confirm one way or the other.
 
Yes, that's what I thought too but I'm a bit confused re the 'Italian lady' as per my query above to @Niner.

Re corroboration, I guess they must have something else since they clearly haven't tracked down the 2 unknown rape victims in the charge sheet.

I edited my post - and mentioned that I took out the words "Italian woman" in my notes.
 
Thanks, Niner. As I said, I thought the 'Italian lady' was the one in the farmhouse, not the elderly rape victim in the charge sheet.

I'm sure someone else will confirm one way or the other.

I don't think its possible to confirm based on the FAZ info - it doesn't say where the Italian woman was and she is said to be 40-50. As this rape is not one of the ones charged, maybe this second witness is not regarded as so credible?

I wonder if we can get hold of the original judgement in german

The court assessed his statement as credible and concluded that the two witnesses had seen different video sequences: The first witness saw the rape of the older woman and the beginning of the part in which the teenager had been tied to the beams. And the second witness saw the entire sequence with the teenager - and then only the Italian-speaking woman with the 45 to 50-year-old woman. The court considered it impossible that the first witness had come up with the rape of the older woman - because the details were so similar to the process of the rape of the 72-year-old American for whom Christian B. was convicted.
 
Yes, that's what I thought too but I'm a bit confused re the 'Italian lady' as per my query above to @Niner.

Re corroboration, I guess they must have something else since they clearly haven't tracked down the 2 unknown rape victims in the charge sheet. I did wonder if maybe they'd had a real breakthrough and actually found the two victims but the date range - sometime between Dec. 28, 2000 to April 8, 2006 - implies otherwise.

BIB

I thought about this a bit more, and offer the following wild speculation.

The first thing to recognise, is the stuff about the teenager and the 70+ elderly woman was known in '18 - and at CBs 2019 rape trial. So it has taken nearly 4 years for him to be charged with those. But he was charged and convicted of the American woman within a year once that cold case was located and forensics matched.

What do we make of that?

Obviously prior to the 2019 trial, that 'video' evidence was untested. But the Court accepted it - at least in so far as the first witness goes. The first witness voluntarily brought the evidence. The second witness only offered it under interrogation in Greece. The first witness also offers the additional testimony of the swimming googles with paint, and whipping. So the Court finds the first witness saw a rape of a different woman, NOT the American victim, but nevertheless finds this relevant to the case against CB for the rape of the American woman, because it was so similar, he could not have made it up.

The critical point here is that first witness divulged this info, causing PJ to looked at the cold cases, finding the American case rather than the victim seen. So the court in fact concluded there must have been two rapes of elderly ladies.

What is then interesting about this is the subsequent HCW cold case investigation has not located the other 3 victims, so unlike in the American and HB cases, we have no forensics or rape kits.

Also the third 'italian' victim has not been charged at all. This suggests to me that the 2nd witness is not regarded as credible enough on that case, or it lacks substantiation. e.g. the FAZ article has no whipping. It might be possible this witness in fact didn't actually see the tape or didn't remember it properly?

So what corroboration does HCW have? I am going to speculate not much

If he had photos, he would have had them at the '19 trial most probably.

But i don't think he needs it. Logically the '19 Court held that Witness 1 must have seen the elderly victim because it lead to solving the American case. Therefore logically he also saw the teenage victim.

That may be all he has IMO. Maybe through in some witnesses for background - e.g access to victims, breaking and entering.

Is this enough? Logically yes based on the '19 findings?

On the other hand, prosecuting 2 no victim cases with no physical evidence seems a stretch to me.

There may be standard of proof issues as well.

In the American case, the video evidence does not have to be proven beyond reasonable doubt. We also had the hair to get the case over the line. Is the testimony about the video enough for BARD conviction without anything else?
 
BIB

I thought about this a bit more, and offer the following wild speculation.

The first thing to recognise, is the stuff about the teenager and the 70+ elderly woman was known in '18 - and at CBs 2019 rape trial. So it has taken nearly 4 years for him to be charged with those. But he was charged and convicted of the American woman within a year once that cold case was located and forensics matched.

What do we make of that?

Obviously prior to the 2019 trial, that 'video' evidence was untested. But the Court accepted it - at least in so far as the first witness goes. The first witness voluntarily brought the evidence. The second witness only offered it under interrogation in Greece. The first witness also offers the additional testimony of the swimming googles with paint, and whipping. So the Court finds the first witness saw a rape of a different woman, NOT the American victim, but nevertheless finds this relevant to the case against CB for the rape of the American woman, because it was so similar, he could not have made it up.

The critical point here is that first witness divulged this info, causing PJ to looked at the cold cases, finding the American case rather than the victim seen. So the court in fact concluded there must have been two rapes of elderly ladies.

What is then interesting about this is the subsequent HCW cold case investigation has not located the other 3 victims, so unlike in the American and HB cases, we have no forensics or rape kits.

Also the third 'italian' victim has not been charged at all. This suggests to me that the 2nd witness is not regarded as credible enough on that case, or it lacks substantiation. e.g. the FAZ article has no whipping. It might be possible this witness in fact didn't actually see the tape or didn't remember it properly?

So what corroboration does HCW have? I am going to speculate not much

If he had photos, he would have had them at the '19 trial most probably.

But i don't think he needs it. Logically the '19 Court held that Witness 1 must have seen the elderly victim because it lead to solving the American case. Therefore logically he also saw the teenage victim.

That may be all he has IMO. Maybe through in some witnesses for background - e.g access to victims, breaking and entering.

Is this enough? Logically yes based on the '19 findings?

On the other hand, prosecuting 2 no victim cases with no physical evidence seems a stretch to me.

There may be standard of proof issues as well.

In the American case, the video evidence does not have to be proven beyond reasonable doubt. We also had the hair to get the case over the line. Is the testimony about the video enough for BARD conviction without anything else?
On top of all of that let us not forget that CB came to prominence because he was named prime suspect in the Madeleine disappearance, what on earth is the link ?
 
BIB

I thought about this a bit more, and offer the following wild speculation.

The first thing to recognise, is the stuff about the teenager and the 70+ elderly woman was known in '18 - and at CBs 2019 rape trial. So it has taken nearly 4 years for him to be charged with those. But he was charged and convicted of the American woman within a year once that cold case was located and forensics matched.

What do we make of that?

Obviously prior to the 2019 trial, that 'video' evidence was untested. But the Court accepted it - at least in so far as the first witness goes. The first witness voluntarily brought the evidence. The second witness only offered it under interrogation in Greece. The first witness also offers the additional testimony of the swimming googles with paint, and whipping. So the Court finds the first witness saw a rape of a different woman, NOT the American victim, but nevertheless finds this relevant to the case against CB for the rape of the American woman, because it was so similar, he could not have made it up.

The critical point here is that first witness divulged this info, causing PJ to looked at the cold cases, finding the American case rather than the victim seen. So the court in fact concluded there must have been two rapes of elderly ladies.

What is then interesting about this is the subsequent HCW cold case investigation has not located the other 3 victims, so unlike in the American and HB cases, we have no forensics or rape kits.

Also the third 'italian' victim has not been charged at all. This suggests to me that the 2nd witness is not regarded as credible enough on that case, or it lacks substantiation. e.g. the FAZ article has no whipping. It might be possible this witness in fact didn't actually see the tape or didn't remember it properly?

So what corroboration does HCW have? I am going to speculate not much

If he had photos, he would have had them at the '19 trial most probably.

But i don't think he needs it. Logically the '19 Court held that Witness 1 must have seen the elderly victim because it lead to solving the American case. Therefore logically he also saw the teenage victim.

That may be all he has IMO. Maybe through in some witnesses for background - e.g access to victims, breaking and entering.

Is this enough? Logically yes based on the '19 findings?

On the other hand, prosecuting 2 no victim cases with no physical evidence seems a stretch to me.

There may be standard of proof issues as well.

In the American case, the video evidence does not have to be proven beyond reasonable doubt. We also had the hair to get the case over the line. Is the testimony about the video enough for BARD conviction without anything else?
It is not certain they would have managed to go through all the pics/videos/'notebooks' CB had at the box factory in 2019. So in between 2019 and 2022 they could have more evidence to corroborate the witnesses' testimony, whose credibility is not in doubt as the 2019 trial shows. Jmo
 
I don't think its possible to confirm based on the FAZ info - it doesn't say where the Italian woman was and she is said to be 40-50. As this rape is not one of the ones charged, maybe this second witness is not regarded as so credible?

I wonder if we can get hold of the original judgement in german

So is this the charge for the "older woman" - being 40 to 50 & Italian that I should use in my notes?
 
So is this the charge for the "older woman" - being 40 to 50 & Italian that I should use in my notes?

The older woman referred to in the indictment was described by witness as being over 70-75, corpulent, tied to a bed in a holiday apartment, wearing painted swimming googles and speaking english.

The case of a 40+ woman speaking Italian has not been charged

That is how I see it
 
It is not certain they would have managed to go through all the pics/videos/'notebooks' CB had at the box factory in 2019. So in between 2019 and 2022 they could have more evidence to corroborate the witnesses' testimony, whose credibility is not in doubt as the 2019 trial shows. Jmo

Possibly

I lean towards them having used that time to try to find the 3 victims plus other cold cases - the HB connection didn't drop apparently until after they went public with the MM appeal, so they might have had leads on quite a few things.

It seems like they didn't find any of the 3 rape victims they were looking for, but found 1 new one we know of. There may be more.
 
The older woman referred to in the indictment was described by witness as being over 70-75, corpulent, tied to a bed in a holiday apartment, wearing painted swimming googles and speaking english.

The case of a 40+ woman speaking Italian has not been charged

That is how I see it

Okay - thanks a bunch! I will keep my notes that I have then.
 
BIB

I thought about this a bit more, and offer the following wild speculation.

The first thing to recognise, is the stuff about the teenager and the 70+ elderly woman was known in '18 - and at CBs 2019 rape trial. So it has taken nearly 4 years for him to be charged with those. But he was charged and convicted of the American woman within a year once that cold case was located and forensics matched.

What do we make of that?
Neither one of the two unknown rapes were ever 'official' ie. reported to the police so no record exists of them. I think we can say this for a fact since both victims are still described in the current charges as unknown and allow for a potential 6-yr time span in which they occurred. The American victim was on file.

So why charges now for both but not for the 'Italian' victim? Could it be that CB was visible and recognisable in the video footage of both but not in the case of the 'Italian' victim? He's alleged to have taken his mask off in the case of the elderly woman. And the charge against the young girl alleges oral sex which might/could have featured his body (known scars, birthmarks etc) if not also his face or enough of his face to identify him. So they pursued those 2 cases in the hope of finding the victims and, while not being successful on that front, found enough additional evidence somewhere along the way to finally bring charges.
 
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And the charge against the young girl alleges oral sex which might/could have featured his body (known scars, birthmarks etc) if not also his face or enough of his face to identify him.

The rape was in his house.
CB spoke on the footage also - MS mentioned hearing CB's voice saying about the victim vomiting on his new carpet. He recognised CB's voice.
 
The rape was in his house.
CB spoke on the footage also - MS mentioned hearing CB's voice saying about the victim vomiting on his new carpet. He recognised CB's voice.

^ Yes, that could be another factor that the BKA has taken on board and that adds to its conclusion re the charge in the young girl's case. And possibly also re the elderly woman, that the video footage also captured his voice?

And that none of those potential factors - no identifiable face or body, no voice, identifiable or otherwise, was put forward as viewed evidence by the witness as far as the 'Italian' woman is concerned, hence no charge in her case.
 

This is about HB but paywalled...
This appears to be a new article?! Does anyone have access to it and can summarise?
 
^ Yes, that could be another factor that the BKA has taken on board and that adds to its conclusion re the charge in the young girl's case. And possibly also re the elderly woman, that the video footage also captured his voice?

And that none of those potential factors - no identifiable face or body, no voice, identifiable or otherwise, was put forward as viewed evidence by the witness as far as the 'Italian' woman is concerned, hence no charge in her case.

I can't see any reason why the "Italian woman" isn't charged based on the FAZ article as the witness says he saw CB unmasked in the video. Maybe the witness is regarded as less credible by BKA
 
I can't see any reason why the "Italian woman" isn't charged based on the FAZ article as the witness says he saw CB unmasked in the video. Maybe the witness is regarded as less credible by BKA

I can't access the FAZ article (only the bare bones of it before it goes into paywall) so I can't comment on what it says. But you've presumably accessed it and are in a position to judge so you may well be right as regards your theory re the 2nd witness.
 
It is not certain they would have managed to go through all the pics/videos/'notebooks' CB had at the box factory in 2019. So in between 2019 and 2022 they could have more evidence to corroborate the witnesses' testimony, whose credibility is not in doubt as the 2019 trial shows. Jmo

Agreed.

It's was said that there were 2 camera's taken from CB's property and about 20 tapes. (JC MSFM P 276)

The original tapes probably don't exist, but copies or stills from them do, likely part of the 8000 pics and video's on the (box factory) memory sticks and CD's.

JMO
 
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