Max Shacknai EMS Report

I would have to listen to the entire interview again to be certain of this, but it was my impression that Nina was very general about who she meant by "we" when she stated they were operating on the assumption that CPR was started within two minutes. She may have been speaking strictly about herself and Dina. She said they believed this because this is what Jonah told them, the implication being that Rebecca lied to Jonah.

It's interesting to me that there was conflict around this detail and that there is a continued fixation on it, considering the content of the message that was painted on the door at the scene of Rebecca's death (She saved him / Can you save her?). Of course, that message could be interpreted many ways, but I personally find it quite interesting in this context.

Question for people with knowledge of EMS procedures: How do paramedics determine whether CPR has been performed at the scene? Do they ask witnesses or rely more on findings at the scene? If the former is true, I don't understand what the motive would be for Rebecca to lie to the 911 operator (via XZ) and Jonah (per Dina/Nina) but tell the paramedics she did not administer CPR.

As always, JMO.

Nina stated in her audio interview that Jonah told her sister that Rebecca told him she started CPR within two minutes. However, in order to believe her statement you first need to believe that Rebecca really told that to Jonah and that Jonah really told that to Dina, and that Dina really told that to Nina.

I don't know that I would believe anything that Nina said Dina said Jonah said Rebecca said. There are too many people in this chain. Even if Jonah came forth and claimed that Rebecca said what Nina said Dina told her how would we know he was telling the truth? Maybe if he passed it on a LDT? Idk.
 
Nina stated in her audio interview that Jonah told her sister that Rebecca told him she started CPR within two minutes. However, in order to believe her statement you first need to believe that Rebecca really told that to Jonah and that Jonah really told that to Dina, and that Dina really told that to Nina.

I don't know that I would believe anything that Nina said Dina said Jonah said Rebecca said. There are too many people in this chain. Even if Jonah came forth and claimed that Rebecca said what Nina said Dina told her how would we know he was telling the truth? Maybe if he passed it on a LDT? Idk.

IMO, based on the information we've seen/heard so far, it doesn't have to be strictly truth or a lie. I agree with others who believe there was the potential for miscommunication/misinterpretation at some point in the chain of multiple people.

What I find more difficult to believe is the idea that Rebecca and XZ would work together in a deliberate effort to deceive the 911 operator.

Just my opinion.
 
IMO, based on the information we've seen/heard so far, it doesn't have to be strictly truth or a lie. I agree with others who believe there was the potential for miscommunication/misinterpretation at some point in the chain of multiple people.

What I find more difficult to believe is the idea that Rebecca and XZ would work together in a deliberate effort to deceive the 911 operator.

Just my opinion.

Yes, I agree with what you wrote. However, I do enjoy looking at alternate explanations as well.

I don't have an opinion as of yet what RZ and XZ may have done together. Just as I really have not made up my mind about what most likely may have happened to Max.

I like to put alternate perspectives on the table for thought and discussion. One such thought was that possibly RZ and XZ were rehearsed on what to say and do as part of cover-up for an accident involving one of the older children.

Another thought was that RZ told JS what she thought he wanted to hear. I don't know if RZ had some of the same types of problems that KS and DS had with JS. However, it seems that JS had habitual methods of dealing with difficulties with past wives. Max's accident would certainly fall under the category of a major stressor so she may have been afraid of his reaction. Idk, jmo.
 
IMO, based on the information we've seen/heard so far, it doesn't have to be strictly truth or a lie. I agree with others who believe there was the potential for miscommunication/misinterpretation at some point in the chain of multiple people.

What I find more difficult to believe is the idea that Rebecca and XZ would work together in a deliberate effort to deceive the 911 operator.

Just my opinion.

What if they were trying to cover something up, desperately so?
 
Yes, I agree with what you wrote. However, I do enjoy looking at alternate explanations as well.

I don't have an opinion as of yet what RZ and XZ may have done together. Just as I really have not made up my mind about what most likely may have happened to Max.

I like to put alternate perspectives on the table for thought and discussion. One such thought was that possibly RZ and XZ were rehearsed on what to say and do as part of cover-up for an accident involving one of the older children.

Another thought was that RZ told JS what she thought he wanted to hear. I don't know if RZ had some of the same types of problems that KS and DS had with JS. However, it seems that JS had habitual methods of dealing with difficulties with past wives. Max's accident would certainly fall under the category of a major stressor so she may have been afraid of his reaction. Idk, jmo.

freespeech - I agree with you on this, as well. Adults often cover for children in such cases and it wouldn't surprise me to learn that happened here, regardless of which of the teenagers was involved. However, it WOULD surprise me to learn that XZ lied to the 911 operator about Rebecca attempting to resuscitate Max. I mention this because it is the theory put forth by Dina and Nina. That's what I was referring to in my post. I'm sorry I wasn't more specific.
 
Here is a partial summarized transcript of Nina's interview. I reposted here because some of the information applies to questions asked on this thread.

Nina's Interview posted 11/7/11. The available audio version was 1:20:43 secs. I don't know the actual date of the interview was done.

http://www.cbs8.com/story/15982091/exclusive-max-shacknais-aunt-talks-about-coronado-mansion-deaths

MONDAY

Rebecca picked up Nina and her son at the airport around 9:00 PM.

Rebecca dropped Nina and her son off at the hospital. Rebecca had Howard Luber with her. Rebecca went back to the airport to pick Howard Luber up. Rebecca dropped Nina's luggage off at Dina's house.

Nina and her son were not able to see Max because ICU visiting hours were over.

A friend of Dina's who was at the hospital drove Nina and her son to Dina's house.

TUESDAY

In Nina's audio interview at about 5:00-6:00 minutes she stated that she went to see Max on Tueday. She described how she bought Max an teddy and a book but when she saw him she was absolutely shocked at his condition.

Nina said that the nurses said that Max would probably be in ICU for a week, would then go to the step down unit for a couple of weeks and then to rehab.
He will probably miss the soccer season and might not make first grade right away. Nina then said that they were under the impression that Rebecca gave CPR within two minutes at that time but they found out later that no CPR was done from the EMT report. She stated that she was with her nephew the rest of the day. At no time during this segment does she ever mention being with Dina. During the entire segment she gives the impression of being there alone.

Nina stated that Dr. Peterson walked in Max's room that evening and abruptly stated to Dina, "Well, I don't know if this kid's ever going to walk or talk again."..."That's what he said to my sister."

NINA'S TUESDAY NIGHT TIMELINE

Later in Nina's interview at about 55:00 minutes plus, she gives the Tuesday timeline.

*Dina was at the hospital from Monday, July 11 at 3:00 PM until Tuesday, July 12 10:00 AM. A friend of Dina's picked her up and drove her home. She arrived home at 10:30 AM and ate, showered and tried to sleep but was too upset.

*Nina and Dina then drove to the hospital together in Dina's car at 3:30 PM.

*Nina and Dina arrived at the hospital at 4:00 PM. Jonah and Howard were leaving at that time. Nina stated that she did not see Rebecca and Adam. She did not know when, how or if they had dinner together.

*Nina stated that Jonah came back to the hospital at 8:00 PM on the dot.

*Nina stated she left the hospital at 9:00 PM. She drove Jonah's car back to Dina's house. She arrived at 9:25 PM and text Rebecca from Dina's kitchen at 9:41 PM.

*She waited for Rebecca to text/call back until 9:55 PM and then walked over to Rebecca's house.

*Nina stated she was at Rebecca's house for 3 minutes.

WEDNESDAY

Nina stated that Dina phoned her at 7:30 AM to tell her what happened to Rebecca.

Nina stated the doctors confered with Jonah and Dina regarding the MRI results that showed the extent of the damage. If he survived Max would be a vegetable.

THURSDAY

Nina stated that Max was getting worse.
Nina stated that Dr. Peterson confered with Jonah and Dina regarding his suffocation theory.

FRIDAY

Nina said Max passed away (brain death).

SATURDAY

Max passed away physically.

Nina flew home.

SUNDAY

Nina flew back with her husband.

They drove Dina back to Arizona.

WEDNESDAY

Max's funeral
 
Nina repeatedly stated throughout the interview that they were all under the impression that Rebecca had given Max CPR within 2 minutes of finding him. There were several sections of the interview where she stated that the doctors also thought that he had CRP within two minutes.

That theme was very strong in her interview. There were two sections that I remember where she stated Jonah told my sister that Rebecca told him that she gave Max CPR with two minutes. Listening to her emphasis on this led me to believe that Nina believed Rebecca lied about giving CPR.

I also got the impression that Nina may have thought that had Max had CPR within two minutes he might have lived. I think that may have been a common perception that a non medical person might assume.

However, I agree whole-heartedly with K_Z's posts on this CPR matter. I feel she has shed invaluable light on this issue and by placing it in proper medical perspective. She stated the facts and showed what the doctors would have known and assumed at the time based on their medical knowledge and experience with cases of cardiac arrest secondary to head/spinal trauma. Their focus would not have been to discover whether CPR was given within two minutes of finding him but aggressively treating the life threatening sequelae.
 
freespeech - I agree with you on this, as well. Adults often cover for children in such cases and it wouldn't surprise me to learn that happened here, regardless of which of the teenagers was involved. However, it WOULD surprise me to learn that XZ lied to the 911 operator about Rebecca attempting to resuscitate Max. I mention this because it is the theory put forth by Dina and Nina. That's what I was referring to in my post. I'm sorry I wasn't more specific.

I didn't see the Dr. Phil show or hear the two lines of the 9-1-1 call that Dina released. I cannot say what I think of RZ and XZ performance during the call. I do know that Nina called Max's 9-1-1 call bizarre and said that XZ was mostly silent and RZ sounded hysterical. She also complained that Rebecca did not give the address correctly. Nina said Rebecca said 1040 instead of 1043 Ocean Blvd.

Nina also said that first responders reported that Max was on his stomach when they arrived. That wasn't documented in the report though so I don't know where Nina got that information.

I do think the parallels between Max and Rebecca are creepy as was previously posted. I would like to add to add to the growing list the following:

1) Adam did not know the correct address. Nina complained that Rebecca gave an incorrect address.

2)An early newspaper report stated that first responders and helicopter footage found Rebecca on her stomach. First responders may have found Max on his stomach.

3) Rebecca was hung from the bedroom. Nina said Rebecca said Max fell from the bedroom.

4) Adam's performance on the 9-1-1 tape was questionable. Did he do CPR? Did her cut her down? Rebecca and her sister's performance on the the 9-1-1 tape is questioned. Did Rebecca do CPR? Did she stage an accidental fall?

5) Both Max and Rebecca have unexplained back injuries and head contusions.

There are other parallels but I will leave those for others to show.
 
BBM.

I think it is not at all decisive (yet) to the public when the high spinal cord contusion was evident on radiographic imaging. I strongly believe Max’s medical records hold the answers to this question. (Both when the doctors and staff knew, and the family was notified.) I believe the timing of this information is quite important when evaluating the circumstances of Rebecca’s death, and is quite compelling for her case to be reopened. (I support both deaths being reopened by authorities.)

I have been in discussion with an MD/ PhD, who is a neuroimaging (MRI) specialist, and a head and neck injury specialist, as well as a clinical and academic neurologist. (University medical school professor and expert.) I have offered his personal credentials and information to moderators here, and evidence of our discussions, if necessary to substantiate this, and a previous post.

I have discussed this case with him, and he has reviewed the autopsy report, as well as relevant case information that is available. It is his opinion, that the radiographic evidence of the high spinal cord injury on MRI would have been evident at 2 to 12 hours post-injury, and would have evolved (become worse) and become more evident over time. I specifically discussed whether the cranial bony injuries, global hypoxic cerebral edema, or young age of the patient would have made diagnosis of the high spinal cord contusion more difficult to diagnose on MRI. He states categorically “no”. Of course, he would like to see the entire record, as well as the specific radiographic reports, but he is confident that the docs and radiologists caring for Max would have been quite aware of the specific details of his injuries very early on (within hours of admission to Rady), as well as the likely prognosis.

Specifically, he believes the docs would have been very aware of the high spinal cord injury.

I absolutely agree with K_Z about the medical records. Without a review of the actual professional documentation of Max's hospitalization the truth cannot be ascertained from the families interpretations of what they thought they knew.

Max had a deadly injury with a complex sequelae due to being resuscitated. This family could not possible understand the full extent of Max's injury and were doubtlessly on information overload. Intelligence was not the issue. As far as I know neither parent was a medical doctor or had prior knowledge of emergency medicine or pediatric neurology. How could they be expected to understand everything that was happening?

I do not believe the account of events Nina gave in her interview. I do not believe her statements that the nurses told her Max would go to the step down in a week and then rehab. I do not believe that Dr. Peterson went into Max's room late at night on Tuesday to tell Dina that he didn't know if Max would ever walk or talk again.

However, I am almost certain that the nurses and doctors documented exactly what they did and everything told to the family. Of course anything is possible but if what Nina claimed were true, which I do not believe, then the doctor and nurses she spoke of would have behaved very unprofessionally, imo.

Having said that and with all the other comments made here there is something that doesn't pass the smell test so to speak. Why didn't Dina simply use the medical records and Dr. Peterson's report to prove her claims that Max was assaulted, suffocated and pushed over the railing?

Why make mention that the hospital and doctors were suspicious without following up with their reports? Why would Dr. Melinek need to reference non professional sources like Wikipedia and LHK when she had the hospital record? Why didn't she use Dr. Peterson's report, the scan results and the actual documentation of the nurses and doctors who saw and cared for Max? That does not make any sense, imho.
 
I absolutely agree with K_Z about the medical records. Without a review of the actual professional documentation of Max's hospitalization the truth cannot be ascertained from the families interpretations of what they thought they knew.

Max had a deadly injury with a complex sequelae due to being resuscitated. This family could not possible understand the full extent of Max's injury and were doubtlessly on information overload. Intelligence was not the issue. As far as I know neither parent was a medical doctor or had prior knowledge of emergency medicine or pediatric neurology. How could they be expected to understand everything that was happening?

I do not believe the account of events Nina gave in her interview. I do not believe her statements that the nurses told her Max would go to the step down in a week and then rehab. I do not believe that Dr. Peterson went into Max's room late at night on Tuesday to tell Dina that he didn't know if Max would ever walk or talk again.

However, I am almost certain that the nurses and doctors documented exactly what they did and everything told to the family. Of course anything is possible but if what Nina claimed were true, which I do not believe, then the doctor and nurses she spoke of would have behaved very unprofessionally, imo.

Having said that and with all the other comments made here there is something that doesn't pass the smell test so to speak. Why didn't Dina simply use the medical records and Dr. Peterson's report to prove her claims that Max was assaulted, suffocated and pushed over the railing?

Why make mention that the hospital and doctors were suspicious without following up with their reports? Why would Dr. Melinek need to reference non professional sources like Wikipedia and LHK when she had the hospital record? Why didn't she use Dr. Peterson's report, the scan results and the actual documentation of the nurses and doctors who saw and cared for Max? That does not make any sense, imho.

:goodpost: I totally agree.
 
Here is a partial summarized transcript of Nina's interview. I reposted here because some of the information applies to questions asked on this thread.

Nina's Interview posted 11/7/11. The available audio version was 1:20:43 secs. I don't know the actual date of the interview was done.

http://www.cbs8.com/story/15982091/exclusive-max-shacknais-aunt-talks-about-coronado-mansion-deaths


TUESDAY

In Nina's audio interview at about 5:00-6:00 minutes she stated that she went to see Max on Tueday. She described how she bought Max an teddy and a book but when she saw him she was absolutely shocked at his condition.

Nina said that the nurses said that Max would probably be in ICU for a week, would then go to the step down unit for a couple of weeks and then to rehab.

He will probably miss the soccer season and might not make first grade right away. Nina then said that they were under the impression that Rebecca gave CPR within two minutes at that time but they found out later that no CPR was done from the EMT report. She stated that she was with her nephew the rest of the day. At no time during this segment does she ever mention being with Dina. During the entire segment she gives the impression of being there alone.

Nina stated that Dr. Peterson walked in Max's room that evening and abruptly stated to Dina, "Well, I don't know if this kid's ever going to walk or talk again."..."That's what he said to my sister."

NINA'S TUESDAY NIGHT TIMELINE

Later in Nina's interview at about 55:00 minutes plus, she gives the Tuesday timeline.

*Dina was at the hospital from Monday, July 11 at 3:00 PM until Tuesday, July 12 10:00 AM. A friend of Dina's picked her up and drove her home. She arrived home at 10:30 AM and ate, showered and tried to sleep but was too upset.

*Nina and Dina then drove to the hospital together in Dina's car at 3:30 PM.

*Nina and Dina arrived at the hospital at 4:00 PM. Jonah and Howard were leaving at that time. Nina stated that she did not see Rebecca and Adam. She did not know when, how or if they had dinner together.

*Nina stated that Jonah came back to the hospital at 8:00 PM on the dot.

*Nina stated she left the hospital at 9:00 PM. She drove Jonah's car back to Dina's house. She arrived at 9:25 PM and text Rebecca from Dina's kitchen at 9:41 PM.

*She waited for Rebecca to text/call back until 9:55 PM and then walked over to Rebecca's house.

*Nina stated she was at Rebecca's house for 3 minutes.


Unfortunately, we lost the timeline thread (and thank you so much for spending the time to do this!), but this whole Tuesday schedule seems off to me. I can't dig up the sources right off hand but I was sure Dina was gone from the hospital way more than this.

Then we have that conflict between the time Jonah gave vs Dina gave on Tuesday evening with a two hour gap. I'm not saying Nina isn't telling the truth... maybe part of this is just what she was told or whatever.
 
July 11, 2011
Mid morning
- Jonah walks/runs to the gym for a workout.

10:24 AM - Rebecca calls Jonah at the gym to tell him about Max’s fall and he runs home in time to see Max being loaded into the ambulance. Jonah follows ambulance to Sharp Coronado ER
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8260721&postcount=97"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - CA Rebecca Zahau Naplepa Suicide or Murder? Media links&Timelines ONLY-NO DISCUSSION[/ame]

Treatment Summary
pg 2
10:30 AM Left scene
http://www.maxshacknai.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/CFD_Report.pdf

I was not aware that JS didn't have his vehicle.
The gym must have been very close!
(less than 6 min)
In a house that size I am really surprised he didn't have his own
workout equipment.
 
July 11, 2011
Mid morning
- Jonah walks/runs to the gym for a workout.

10:24 AM - Rebecca calls Jonah at the gym to tell him about Max’s fall and he runs home in time to see Max being loaded into the ambulance. Jonah follows ambulance to Sharp Coronado ER
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - CA Rebecca Zahau Naplepa Suicide or Murder? Media links&Timelines ONLY-NO DISCUSSION

Treatment Summary
pg 2
10:30 AM Left scene
http://www.maxshacknai.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/CFD_Report.pdf

I was not aware that JS didn't have his vehicle.
The gym must have been very close!
(less than 6 min)
In a house that size I am really surprised he didn't have his own
workout equipment.

There is a gym at Spreckels, and Hollywood Fitness is about 2 blocks away. He also had a membership at the Hotel Del, which is also very close by.
 
Unfortunately, we lost the timeline thread (and thank you so much for spending the time to do this!), but this whole Tuesday schedule seems off to me. I can't dig up the sources right off hand but I was sure Dina was gone from the hospital way more than this.

Then we have that conflict between the time Jonah gave vs Dina gave on Tuesday evening with a two hour gap. I'm not saying Nina isn't telling the truth... maybe part of this is just what she was told or whatever.
Time line located at link.

Updated Timeline
This timeline is from hinkymeter.com. I've made some changes in formatting to make it easier to follow the chronology. Please let me know of any corrections or additions. Thanks. Posted by Betty P.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148814&page=4
 
I wanted to review the EMS timeline from their pre-hospital report, because it may put to rest some speculation about the scene being "staged". Particularly if we add in some thoughts about how hearts in cardiac arrest (specifically, asystole) respond to ACLS efforts after time has passed. Asystole is typically not so much a rhythm to be treated, but more often a confirmation of death, unless the asystole was witnessed and secondary to a treatable underlying cause. Electrical defibrillation is not indicated in asystole.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asystole"]Asystole - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

From the Pre-Hospital Care Report:

10:12 911 called and EMS dispatched
10:16 EMS arrived on scene at mansion
10:18 EMS began CPR and ACLS interventions
10:30 EMS leaves the scene **CPR/ ACLS in progress (we know this because....
10:36 EMS arrives at destination (Sharp Coronado hospital) **EMT states compressions suspended due to ROSC and NSR in the ED-- so we know Max did not regain a pulse or rhythm at the scene or enroute.

Having reviewed that, I strongly believe we can assume that at 10:12 when 911 was called, it is very likely Max was already in cardiac arrest. Despite the comment about "initial dispatch was for SOB due to a fall", we know for certain Max was in aystole at 10:18 when EMT's put him on the monitor and confirmed it.

So, from 10:12 to ROSC in the ED at Sharp Coronado at 10:36 is 24 minutes of asystole. (18 minutes if we use 10:18 as the confirmation of aystole.)

Although we cannot confirm how long Max was down before 911 was called, I believe that this amount of time would be extremely short. Far too short, for example, to "stage" the scene, lower or crash a chandelier, etc. Because if Max had been asystolic for much longer than the 18 or 24 minutes (and I lean more toward 24+ minutes), I don't believe that any amount of ACLS would have been able to restart his heart in these circumstances. Cardiac resuscitations for aysytole are very rarely successful beyond 24+ minutes, except in cases such as drownings and hypothermia.

IMO, the evidence that we have strongly supports that Max had cardiac arrest secondary to the head trauma (as opposed to a deteriorating cardiac rhythm that becomes aystolic from hypoxia, which is a completely different electrical process in the heart.)

I don't think he could have been assaulted in any manner that would leave him in cardiac arrest, and then add time for the scene to be "staged", and then his heart be able to still respond to ACLS with ROSC, after ANOTHER 18 to 24 min of asystole.

What I'm saying is that the evidence, IMO, and knowledge of the physiology of cardiac arrest makes it very likely that the 911 call was made VERY promptly after discovering Max. If much more time had passed, I sincerely doubt that paramedics could have been able to get his heart restarted. I hope that makes sense.

Added: I think it's possible that the dispatch indication of "sob due to a fall" would be clearer if we were able to hear the entire 911 call. The minor sounded very scared and upset on the snippet of call we heard on the Dr. Phil show-- we didn't hear the beginning of the call, so we don't know exactly how it was phrased. It's also possible that Rebecca DID initiate the call, and handed the phone off to her minor sister-- we just don't know without hearing the whole call.

I hope that the 911 call will eventually be released in its entirety, particularly if the authorities continue to decline to reopen the cases. 911 calls should be available under FOIA, IIRC, with some personal info redacted, etc. Perhaps one of the major news agencies will petition for release of the 911 call.
 
I wanted to review the EMS timeline from their pre-hospital report, because it may put to rest some speculation about the scene being "staged". Particularly if we add in some thoughts about how hearts in cardiac arrest (specifically, asystole) respond to ACLS efforts after time has passed. Asystole is typically not so much a rhythm to be treated, but more often a confirmation of death, unless the asystole was witnessed and secondary to a treatable underlying cause. Electrical defibrillation is not indicated in asystole.

Asystole - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

From the Pre-Hospital Care Report:

10:12 911 called and EMS dispatched
10:16 EMS arrived on scene at mansion
10:18 EMS began CPR and ACLS interventions
10:30 EMS leaves the scene **CPR/ ACLS in progress (we know this because....
10:36 EMS arrives at destination (Sharp Coronado hospital) **EMT states compressions suspended due to ROSC and NSR in the ED-- so we know Max did not regain a pulse or rhythm at the scene or enroute.

Having reviewed that, I strongly believe we can assume that at 10:12 when 911 was called, it is very likely Max was already in cardiac arrest. Despite the comment about "initial dispatch was for SOB due to a fall", we know for certain Max was in aystole at 10:18 when EMT's put him on the monitor and confirmed it.

So, from 10:12 to ROSC in the ED at Sharp Coronado at 10:36 is 24 minutes of asystole. (18 minutes if we use 10:18 as the confirmation of aystole.)

Although we cannot confirm how long Max was down before 911 was called, I believe that this amount of time would be extremely short. Far too short, for example, to "stage" the scene, lower or crash a chandelier, etc. Because if Max had been asystolic for much longer than the 18 or 24 minutes (and I lean more toward 24+ minutes), I don't believe that any amount of ACLS would have been able to restart his heart in these circumstances. Cardiac resuscitations for aysytole are very rarely successful beyond 24+ minutes, except in cases such as drownings and hypothermia.

IMO, the evidence that we have strongly supports that Max had cardiac arrest secondary to the head trauma (as opposed to a deteriorating cardiac rhythm that becomes aystolic from hypoxia, which is a completely different electrical process in the heart.)

I don't think he could have been assaulted in any manner that would leave him in cardiac arrest, and then add time for the scene to be "staged", and then his heart be able to still respond to ACLS with ROSC, after ANOTHER 18 to 24 min of asystole.

What I'm saying is that the evidence, IMO, and knowledge of the physiology of cardiac arrest makes it very likely that the 911 call was made VERY promptly after discovering Max. If much more time had passed, I sincerely doubt that paramedics could have been able to get his heart restarted. I hope that makes sense.

Added: I think it's possible that the dispatch indication of "sob due to a fall" would be clearer if we were able to hear the entire 911 call. The minor sounded very scared and upset on the snippet of call we heard on the Dr. Phil show-- we didn't hear the beginning of the call, so we don't know exactly how it was phrased. It's also possible that Rebecca DID initiate the call, and handed the phone off to her minor sister-- we just don't know without hearing the whole call.

I hope that the 911 call will eventually be released in its entirety, particularly if the authorities continue to decline to reopen the cases. 911 calls should be available under FOIA, IIRC, with some personal info redacted, etc. Perhaps one of the major news agencies will petition for release of the 911 call.

:seeya: I read it differently... or maybe not? I think I am confused!
This report? or another one?
http://www.maxshacknai.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/CFD_Report.pdf
"End rhythm was normal sinus rhythm.
"CPR stopped due to spontaneous return of pulses"
wasn't this on the scene?
I'm not sure but I thought the third dose of epi did it...
pg 1
What I am saying is that I don't believe chest compressions were being performed during transit, but he still had an unsecured airway... and was being
bagged/suctioned?

the comment about the return of pulse and b/p was an addendum...
made at a later time... Possibly to explain why Max wasn't transported to Rady to begin with?
pg 2
 
:seeya: I read it differently... or maybe not? I think I am confused!
This report? or another one?
http://www.maxshacknai.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/CFD_Report.pdf
"End rhythm was normal sinus rhythm.
"CPR stopped due to spontaneous return of pulses"
wasn't this on the scene?
I'm not sure but I thought the third dose of epi did it...
pg 1
What I am saying is that I don't believe chest compressions were being performed during transit, but he still had an unsecured airway... and was being
bagged/suctioned?

the comment about the return of pulse and b/p was an addendum...
made at a later time... Possibly to explain why Max wasn't transported to Rady to begin with?
pg 2

We really don't know when the accident happened, we only know when the 911 call was made........how much time passed between Max's incident and when the call was placed?
 
:seeya: I read it differently... or maybe not? I think I am confused!

the comment about the return of pulse and b/p was an addendum...
made at a later time... Possibly to explain why Max wasn't transported to Rady to begin with?pg 2

Respectfully snipped.

Please see my comments in the "sticky" thread about why EMT's went to Coronado first. I think that Scripps Mercy (base hospital) had intended for them to go directly to Rady, but because of all of the difficulties at the scene, directed them to the nearest facility for stabilization backup. They had an unsecured airway, CPR in progress, and had multiple complications of their efforts at the scene. (Regurgitation, unable to confirm intubation, 2 tries at IO access, no response to 3 doses of epi at the scene ( 10:20, 10:24, and 10:28). They departed the scene at 10:30 and arrived in the Coronado ED at 10:36, when ROSC was identified and documented.
 
Respectfully snipped.

Please see my comments in the "sticky" thread about why EMT's went to Coronado first. I think that Scripps Mercy (base hospital) had intended for them to go directly to Rady, but because of all of the difficulties at the scene, directed them to the nearest facility for stabilization backup. They had an unsecured airway, CPR in progress, and had multiple complications of their efforts at the scene. (Regurgitation, unable to confirm intubation, 2 tries at IO access, no response to 3 doses of epi at the scene ( 10:20, 10:24, and 10:28). They departed the scene at 10:30 and arrived in the Coronado ED at 10:36, when ROSC was identified and documented.

There has been no mention of when Jonah arrived at Rady after Max was transported there from Coronado Sharp Hospital. I would like to know that detail, because I think it is extremely important in determining who was where and when.
 
There has been no mention of when Jonah arrived at Rady after Max was transported there from Coronado Sharp Hospital. I would like to know that detail, because I think it is extremely important in determining who was where and when.

duh! You are right! I have not seen that!

Eta: I have seen it reported that JS follwed the ambulance
and that he climed in and rode with Max???
DS arrived at rady at 2:00pm

How did JS get to Rady?
 

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