Missouri, St. Louis - Teenage girl critically injured after brutal fight with another female teen near Hazelwood East High School, 8 March 2024

[ConcernedVA]

I haven't heard much mention about how the girl being charged, M, is physically larger than the girl in the hospital, K. A large person usually holds back against a small one and a small person tends to go too hard to make up for their size. That's just natural. I don't think M "blacked out" I think she lost her temper.

But still, this girl M was beating this skinny girl K's little head into the pavement like a watermelon. It looked to me like she was trying to kill her. I don't see how she could not have been aware of the size disparity when they were fighting, even at their ages and when emotional.

Just my opinion.

 

[Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc]

I haven't heard much mention about how the girl being charged, M, is physically larger than the girl in the hospital, K. A large person usually holds back against a small one and a small person tends to go too hard to make up for their size. That's just natural. I don't think M "blacked out" I think she lost her temper.

But still, this girl M was beating this skinny girl K's little head into the pavement like a watermelon. It looked to me like she was trying to kill her. I don't see how she could not have been aware of the size disparity when they were fighting, even at their ages and when emotional.

Just my opinion.

RBBM FF
I agree somewhat.
When a person goes into fight or flight mode, regardless of which path their body and mind take, the adrenaline and cortisol has gone into overdrive. I have been in fight or flight many times, sometimes fighting and standing my ground, sometimes running like the wind, sometimes fawning. The point I am trying to make is as a serious stress response is happening you don't get much time to think about your actions. The body takes over.
When I have been in fight or flight and it has involved an aggressor, size has never consciously entered my mind, but that it only my experience and I am biased to the shorter side of things.

 

[mickey2942]

Personally, I find apologies seem to be a way for people who did something wrong to just feel better about themselves.

There are some things, that an "apology" is pretty meaningless. Nor should an injured party be "forced" to accept or acknowledge an apology. A recent case comes to mind, Rebecca Grossman, killed two children, and was recently convicted of murdering the children, and she wrote a letter to the parents of the children she killed, from jail.

Really? This case, and so many others, an apology is meaningless.

 

[seasideForest]

I do wonder if they had her in therapy, her explosive anger could be a result of unresolved trauma from her early years if she was not adopted right away, it could even be from in the womb if she was adopted right away. She can do very well scholastically but you need to heal those primal wounds if they are there. Primal wounds left untreated can lead to primal anger that cannot be controlled.

This is a genuince question angelainwi, seeing as you're a certified trauma counsellor: if we presume for a moment that MD is carrying unresolved trauma, is it possible to go into Fight and kind of dissociate with rage and not realise what you're doing to the extent of bashing someone's head on concrete? I also have unresolved trauma, but if I go into Fight, I get stuck in an argue-loop, I'm never physically violent; or I dissociate and do low-level SH. I can't imagine being so spaced out I'm not aware of what I'm doing with that level of violence. BUT that doesn't mean it's not possible. Trauma reactions are complex as you'll know and not everybody reacts the same way. I know dissociate/freeze very well personally but maybe dissociate/fight exists? That's basically what I'm asking.

<modsnip>

 

[SteveP]

I do wonder if they had her in therapy, her explosive anger could be a result of unresolved trauma from her early years if she was not adopted right away, it could even be from in the womb if she was adopted right away. She can do very well scholastically but you need to heal those primal wounds if they are there. Primal wounds left untreated can lead to primal anger that cannot be controlled.

Just to be clear, I have seen nowhere that MD is adopted, but with parents 67 and 66-years old, I think it is almost a given that she was either adopted, or was being raised by grandparents, who consider her and refer to her as their daughter. In any case, your thoughts are still equally valid, and appreciated. JMO

 

[browneyes]

If Kaylee survives but it permanently mentally disabled due to the attack she suffered, do you think the perpetrator should be charged as an adult or a juvenile?

Tried as an adult either way.

 

[mickey2942]

This is a genuince question angelainwi, seeing as you're a certified trauma counsellor: if we presume for a moment that MD is carrying unresolved trauma, is it possible to go into Fight and kind of dissociate with rage and not realise what you're doing to the extent of bashing someone's head on concrete? I also have unresolved trauma, but if I go into Fight, I get stuck in an argue-loop, I'm never physically violent; or I dissociate and do low-level SH. I can't imagine being so spaced out I'm not aware of what I'm doing with that level of violence. BUT that doesn't mean it's not possible. Trauma reactions are complex as you'll know and not everybody reacts the same way. I know dissociate/freeze very well personally but maybe dissociate/fight exists? That's basically what I'm asking.

<modsnip>

With this logic, we would not have prisons, as there could be a possibility of "trauma" response for anyone who performed an act of violence. And then, the perpetrator is viewed through the lens of "victim".

I have no doubt that maladaptive behavior can be a trauma response. But that does not excuse it. Or negate the effects of that behavior on others. There are consequences of perpetrating violence on others.

 

[browneyes]

This is a genuince question angelainwi, seeing as you're a certified trauma counsellor: if we presume for a moment that MD is carrying unresolved trauma, is it possible to go into Fight and kind of dissociate with rage and not realise what you're doing to the extent of bashing someone's head on concrete? I also have unresolved trauma, but if I go into Fight, I get stuck in an argue-loop, I'm never physically violent; or I dissociate and do low-level SH. I can't imagine being so spaced out I'm not aware of what I'm doing with that level of violence. BUT that doesn't mean it's not possible. Trauma reactions are complex as you'll know and not everybody reacts the same way. I know dissociate/freeze very well personally but maybe dissociate/fight exists? That's basically what I'm asking.

<modsnip>

Whatever the aggressor’s issues can be used by her defense. She is a danger to society and should be tried as an adult for the harshest charges…like every other criminal. Actions have consequences.

 

[browneyes]

I agree, whatever happened prior to that day, self defence can't be claimed.

I believe there are mitigating circumstances, and KG wasn't just jumped as some are posting, I believe she turned up ready to fight, but I don't believe she deserved what happened to her.

The other girl should have stopped and walked away the minute she took KG down, anything she did after that can't be excused and I'm not suggesting it should be.

I agree with @SteveP post above.

JMO

The aggressor should never have physically fought at all.

 

[SteveP]

Whatever the aggressor’s issues can be used by her defense. She is a danger to society and should be tried as an adult for the harshest charges…like every other criminal. Actions have consequences.

I really have not seen anyone here arguing that MD should be charged as a juvenile. I think almost everyone I have seen posting acknowledges that the severity of the attack warrants that she be charged as an adult. And yes, actions do have consequences. But actions seldom, if ever, occur in a vacuum, and that brawl certainly did not. That is why courts allow for mitigating circumstances to be considered.

A mitigating factor, also called a mitigating circumstance or extenuating circumstance, is any fact or circumstance that lessens the defendant's severity or culpability of a criminal offense. Unlike justification or excuse defenses, mitigating factors only affect the defendant's sentence.

Anyone familiar with the reported facts of the case surely must see that this brawl didn't "just happen". I would suggest, based on what we have learned, it was BOUND to happen, if not on that day, it would on another. JMO

mitigating factor

www.law.cornell.edu

 

[SteveP]

The aggressor should never have physically fought at all.

<modsnip> ... the aggressor had a right to be there. She was walking to the bus stop at the end of the school day. The victim had been suspended the day before, for fighting, so she would not have been walking home from school at that time. JMO

 

[Sundog]

If the perpetrator in this crime against Kaylee has mental health issues, then that will be determined as part of her psychological evaluation while she is in juvenile detention awaiting her sentencing before a judge. A mental health evaluation will be part of her psycho-social history that is prepared for the juvenile court judge for a decision to either commit her to the Divison of Youth Services in Missouri or to transfer her case to adult court.

If she is not transferred to adult court and remains in the juvenile system, then IMO she needs to be committed to a secure residential facility due to the severity of her crime. According to the Division of Youth Services Annual Report for FY 2023, assault is one of the top ten offenses for which youth are committed to the DYS in Missouri. Even in a secure juvenile residential facility, MD may be considered a danger to other youth in the same facility, so that may not be an option.

JMO.

https://dss.mo.gov/re/pdf/dys/youth-services-annual-report-fy23.pdf

 

[al66pine]

Size Disparity Btwn Fighters

I haven't heard much mention about how the girl being charged, M, is physically larger than the girl in the hospital, K. A large person usually holds back against a small one and a small person tends to go too hard to make up for their size. That's just natural. I don't think M "blacked out" I think she lost her temper.

But still, this girl M was beating this skinny girl K's little head into the pavement like a watermelon. It looked to me like she was trying to kill her. I don't see how she could not have been aware of the size disparity when they were fighting, even at their ages and when emotional.

Just my opinion.

@ConcernedVA Thanks for pointing this out - "I don't see how she could not have been aware of the size disparity when they were fighting, even at their ages and when emotional."

Yes, particularly in this situation, when (at least imo moo jmo) participants agreed beforehand to meet & fight.
In broad daylight. In front of others. In public.

MD was not jumped from behind in a dark alley by Mike Tyson making moves like going for Evander Holyfield's ear.

 

[Sillybilly]

ADMIN NOTE:

Please move on from discussion of the accused having PTSD or trauma. Such speculation is not based on any known fact in this case.

Thank you.

 

[arielilane]

A teenager who was critically injured in a fight outside a school in Missouri is now taking steps towards recovery, but she cannot remember the incident that put her in intensive care.

In an update on Friday, the attorney for Kaylee Gain’s family said she had been able to have “limited verbal conversations” after weeks in a hospital bed.

The 16-year-old was left with a skull fracture and bleeding and swelling on the brain following the attack in St Louis on 8 March, which was caught on video and shared widely online.


If interested, more at link...

Update given on Kaylee Gain’s condition after fight near Missouri high school

The 16-year-old was critically injured in an altercation which was caught on camera and went viral on 8 March

www.independent.co.uk

4 hours ago

 

[arielilane]

Truly a miracle concerning Kaylee's healing. I can still hear the sound of Kaylee's head beating against concrete. horrific!

Justice for Kaylee
This was more than bullying... moo


From the same article posted above:

Update given on Kaylee Gain’s condition after fight near Missouri high school

The 16-year-old was critically injured in an altercation which was caught on camera and went viral on 8 March

www.independent.co.uk

The attorney also addressed rumours that Kaylee’s mother had driven her to the location of the fight on 8 March, which he denied, saying she was at work at the time.



Kaylee Gain is said to have begun speech therapy
(Bryan M Kaemmerer)

 

[Rolypolyoly]

Whatever the aggressor’s issues can be used by her defense. She is a danger to society and should be tried as an adult for the harshest charges…like every other criminal. Actions have consequences.

Actions do have consequences. The same could be said for the girl who came out of her way to fight and threw the first punch.
You can never predict someone else's behaviour, maybe even MD couldn't predict her own behaviour, I don't believe she was attempting to kill Kaylee, and I certainly don't think she planned it.

 

[Rolypolyoly]

I haven't heard much mention about how the girl being charged, M, is physically larger than the girl in the hospital, K. A large person usually holds back against a small one and a small person tends to go too hard to make up for their size. That's just natural. I don't think M "blacked out" I think she lost her temper.

But still, this girl M was beating this skinny girl K's little head into the pavement like a watermelon. It looked to me like she was trying to kill her. I don't see how she could not have been aware of the size disparity when they were fighting, even at their ages and when emotional.

Just my opinion.

Really? It's been a constant theme throughout this thread!

The aggressor should never have physically fought at all.

What should she have done as Kaylee threw a punch at her whilst her friend was shouting "Get her Kaylee" ?

 

[SteveP]

Teen girl charged in Kaylee Gain fight has first court hearing

The teen girl charged in the now viral fight between two Hazelwood East High School students faced a judge on Monday.

www.firstalert4.com

At the hearing, the parents of both Gain and the suspect were in attendance. Only the lawyers and the judge spoke during the hearing.

Gain’s family is pushing for the teenager to be charged as an adult. The suspect’s lawyer does not want that and believes all of the attention the video of the fight got online takes away from the facts of the case.

“Everything is out there about her being an honor student. She was taking an AP course. She has no history with the juvenile court, none. She has been the victim of bullying, but there are other facts that we’re going to save for court,” said Greg Smith, lawyer for the teenager who was charged.

 

[Sillybilly]

Really? It's been a constant theme throughout this thread!



What should she have done as Kaylee threw a punch at her whilst her friend was shouting "Get her Kaylee" ?

Not sure how Missouri law addresses self defence, but in most instances, the degree of force used must be proportional to the degree of threat. Regardless of the instigation, people can be punched and walk away and report it.