MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #13

[JLMcKenna83]

Alright all I'm off to bed..

some speed bumps tonight.. hopefully we're back on track in the am :grouphug:

Night!

 

[ynotdivein]

Whaaaaat? Whatwhatwhat?

My most esteemed fellow sleuthers, there are

- so many "if's" in this case, plus
- so many of us with deep yet varied experience/credentials (yes including Life Experience Credentials) relating to what we DO know about this case, plus
- the fact that we are a passionate bunch, plus
- the knowledge that we likely won't know more factually until the next hearing and beyond,

that it seems to me the best we can do is stick to what we do know, agree to disagree, keep being respectful of one another, and continue to refine our individual positions based on one another's considered input.

Was amazed to see how many pages were filled just today (thanks W8nC for the count!) and look forward to catching up on what I missed, having skimmed ahead in an ineffectual attempt to catch up. Have to agree with I think it was Andres who pointed out that we are all here for essentially the same reasons. Magnetizing/polarizing case. Lack of immediate info is hard to take. Fertile field for opposing theories and therefore disagreements to take root.

And if I may, a clarifying question: it is my understanding that MO does not have Sunshine Laws, and that we should not expect any doc releases prior to trial. Can any WSer verify or disverify this for me? Many thanks in advance, and to all who are following this case in whatever capacity.

 

[Jodibug]

I just want to comment one last time before I take my self imposed exile from this thread for a while that I am indeed very suspicous of LE for many reasons. When I finished law school I wanted nothing more than to rid the streets of criminals and I went to work for the DAs office as a prosecutor believe it or not, after a few years of that I quickly began to lose interest due to the politically motivated nature of many prosecutions, the DA is an elected official and many times the decisions to prosecute are based on politics and sometimes very sloppy police work. I soon left that profession and developed a great distaste for our legal system and pursued a career in journalism which is what I do now, not long ago I renewed my bar membership and started a part time criminal defense practice that mostly deals with DUI representation and other small issues, I dont take major cases because I dont have the time to work two careers but as time goes by I will build up my practice and start working bigger cases. My point in all of this is that I have seen both sides of the justice system and while there are a lot of shady defense attorneys out there, there are just as many shady prosecutors working for an elected DA whose job security depends on prosecuting as many people as possible even if it means putting away people who may sometimes be innocent and yes I have a major problem with that and I dont shy away from expressing it.

Carry on my friends and keep up the good work.

Sorry, not buying it. I'm not saying that it has never happened.... but I don't think that political prosecutions are prevalent. As a taxpayer, I am not willing to foot the bill to house innocent people. I don't think many other taxpayers would be either.

 

[danni]

I think the thing that burns my arse with a TENY TINY LITTLE FLAME is the fact that criminals, acused, convicted, whatever the case may be have more rights, and amenities than the victims do. And it seems as if very few people care. Oh poor so and so she had this or he had this. So and so grew up in a bad home. So and so's mom was smokin crack when she was pregnant.

Criminal-
We (the tax payers of the state) more often than not pay for their defense.
We pay for them to be housed in whatever facility they are being kept at.
We pay for their food.
We pay for their food to be cooked.
We pay for their health care.
We pay for their medication.
We pay for their electric, sewage, water, cable tv.
We pay for their clothing. (they walk around in nice thick Carhartt type coat during the winter)
We pay for their laundry to be done.
We pay for their basketball hoops, weights, bats, baseballs, tv's, and yes even the NETFLIX they watch on the weekend (bet ya didn't know that did ya?)
average cost of a first degree murder trial (w/o death penalty) $320,000.
Averal cost of housing a prisoner for a year $45,000.

If a 15 year old female criminal serving LOWP lives to the average life expectancy (80 years old) We will have paid an average of $2,925,000 just to HOUSE her. If you want to add insult to injury you can add the $320,000 to that for the trail and conviction.
$3,245,000

Family of a murder victim-
More often than not they have to ask for donations to bury their loved one because murder is an unexpected death, not something you can save for.
They deal with depression and many other issues surounding the death of their loved one. Who pays for their meds? Either they do or they do without! We make them relive this horrible time in thier life by allowing the murderer to plead not guilty even though they have confessed.
Then if that doesn't beat all, they in the long run are paying for the that killed their family member to live better with all the pleasures in life listed above!

My opinion, I am allowed to have one these days right?
Patti deserves to pull the lever that releases the door that causes a rope to tighten around Alyssa's neck!
Think it p!$%es me off.
That is an understatement!

 

[droptoplesabre]

I think the thing that burns my arse with a TENY TINY LITTLE FLAME is the fact that criminals, acused, convicted, whatever the case may be have more rights, and amenities than the victims do. And it seems as if very few people care. Oh poor so and so she had this or he had this. So and so grew up in a bad home. So and so's mom was smokin crack when she was pregnant.

Criminal-
We (the tax payers of the state) more often than not pay for their defense.
We pay for them to be housed in whatever facility they are being kept at.
We pay for their food.
We pay for their food to be cooked.
We pay for their health care.
We pay for their medication.
We pay for their electric, sewage, water, cable tv.
We pay for their clothing. (they walk around in nice thick Carhartt type coat during the winter)
We pay for their laundry to be done.
We pay for their basketball hoops, weights, bats, baseballs, tv's, and yes even the NETFLIX they watch on the weekend (bet ya didn't know that did ya?)
average cost of a first degree murder trial (w/o death penalty) $320,000.
Averal cost of housing a prisoner for a year $45,000.

If a 15 year old female criminal serving LOWP lives to the average life expectancy (80 years old) We will have paid an average of $2,925,000 just to HOUSE her. If you want to add insult to injury you can add the $320,000 to that for the trail and conviction.
$3,245,000

Family of a murder victim-
More often than not they have to ask for donations to bury their loved one because murder is an unexpected death, not something you can save for.
They deal with depression and many other issues surounding the death of their loved one. Who pays for their meds? Either they do or they do without! We make them relive this horrible time in thier life by allowing the murderer to plead not guilty even though they have confessed.
Then if that doesn't beat all, they in the long run are paying for the that killed their family member to live better with all the pleasures in life listed above!

My opinion, I am allowed to have one these days right?
Patti deserves to pull the lever that releases the door that causes a rope to tighten around Alyssa's neck!
Think it p!$%es me off.
That is an understatement!

bravo danni,,bravo,well said,,IMO.

 

[LadyBug99]

Even if the confession is thrown out and LE can’t testify that she made the statement that she wanted to know what it felt like to kill someone. I would think that by now they already have physical evidence tying AB to the murder. I don’t think anyone here believes that AB is innocent and her confession was coerced. I do feel that LE may not have had a clue what was going to take place when they interviewed AB. It came as a shock to her friends, family and the MO community. I want to see AB pay for what she did, however I think some of us here look beyond her guilt and want to know why….we may never know but I believe that is a main reason that this case has caught and held my attention.


I also wonder why she did confess? Without her would EO have been found? Did she lead LE to the body because she was proud/happy about what she did or did she lead them to the body because she felt guilty?

 

[droptoplesabre]

Even if the confession is thrown out and LE can’t testify that she made the statement that she wanted to know what it felt like to kill someone. I would think that by now they already have physical evidence tying AB to the murder. I don’t think anyone here believes that AB is innocent and her confession was coerced. I do feel that LE may not have had a clue what was going to take place when they interviewed AB. It came as a shock to her friends, family and the MO community. I want to see AB pay for what she did, however I think some of us here look beyond her guilt and want to know why….we may never know but I believe that is a main reason that this case has caught and held my attention.


I also wonder why she did confess? Without her would EO have been found? Did she lead LE to the body because she was proud/happy about what she did or did she lead them to the body because she felt guilty?

i think i might have to go with what somebody said earlier,,i dont remember who,but they said they thaught she "wanted to talk about it" so i believe, that she may very well have led them to EO as sort of a "braggin right" if ya would..almost like an aniciation thing to a gang. i know (or atleast i think) there is no gang relation to this hienes crime,,but we may never know. i, like everbody else here,,will be very much releaved when/IF we ever find out just WHY she did what she did. and is punished accordingly. JMO.

 

[Csquare]

bravo danni,,bravo,well said,,IMO.

I second that and I stand to applaud you. Thank you.

 

[mia g]

My personal opinion on her confession IS, she was proud(and hard and just flat doesnt care) She wanted people to know SHE KNEW WHAT IT FELT LIKE.....

I just have this picture in my head of her cocky little self, reclined(kinda slouched down) in an uncomfortable chair, with this cocky little grin on her face. Let us not forgot she had wanted to know what "it" felt like for months before she killed Elizabeth. From atleast January, till October, she had this "desire" in mind, we might even could call it a fantasy, and she had finally accomplished what she wanted to do....

In my days of dealing with criminals, I have seen a few that I wished had had better representation. A 19 year old, cheerleader, track star, and basketball star, who had been raped by an unlce. Her friends and her went in and vandalised his house. Apparently it was pretty bad, even some fire involved... It happened when she was 17, and she was doing 5 years... YES she deserved better representation then she got.. Another very young girl we recieved in the adult prison after she had spent time in TYC, for killing a man that was beating her twin brother... I was she had had a better lawyer.( I also beleive both of these girls deserve punishment, but nothing as severe as they got..IF their story was even true!!) I do not care though what kind of lawyer ANYBODY, who kills in cold blood a innocent child. I just cant feel sorry for Alyssa. Reguardless of the WHYS of what she did, I do not doubt for one second she knew exactly what she had done...Also another OPINION of mine is, I wouldnt doubt she wanted to be more like her parents, who are career criminals.

 

[I AM THE 14 CAR]

I have a question.

IF AB admitted to the crime with her attorney present and that was all on the up & up...would her attorney ALSO go along with LE & AB to show the spot where Elizabeth was ?

 

[not_my_kids]

More than likely she tripped over her own words and LE proved she wasn't quite as smart as she thought she was.
If they told her that they already knew, and presenting them with the location would make it easier on her, her self preservation instinct would have taken over.
If she smiles and leads them to the body, she has a shot at insanity as a defense. If she hadn't, it would have shown she knew her actions were wrong, thus the continued concealment. They could have told her that, and she decided to save her own skin, thus the confession.
Personal opinion, supported by no facts whatsoever.

 

[W8nC]

I agree, not my kids.....didn't they say they had "been given" written evidence that led to her? It might be a note from a sib saying "I think A killed E", or even just "A dug holes in the woods last week". Maybe someone in the house found something A herself had written about what she did, or planned, or felt. So she figures, they know this much, I'd better spill the rest. Or is it possible they used what they knew to obtain a search warrant, and found her diary, and all the location of the graves, disclosure of motive, etc was all in the diary? Maybe she didn't actually SAY those things to them.

No telling if she was smug/cocky, or excited/bouncy, or frightened/teary, and we'll probably never know, unless they make a TV movie, and then it will be a "dramatization", emphasis here on "drama".

 

[gliving]

In book "Under the Banner of Heaven" by Jon Krakauer, he writes of a old Mormon practice of "blood atonement" and telling of vicious murders with the victims' throats being slashed, even the baby's throat slashed, with no remorse from the killers. The only way to salvation is to spill the sinner's blood.

And Mr Currie with a gun shot to the head.


Just throwing my morning thoughts out there. :waitasec:

 

[Csquare]

In book "Under the Banner of Heaven" by Jon Krakauer, he writes of a old Mormon practice of "blood atonement" and telling of vicious murders with the victims' throats being slashed, even the baby's throat slashed, with no remorse from the killers. The only way to salvation is to spill the sinner's blood.

And Mr Currie with a gun shot to the head.


Just throwing my morning thoughts out there. :waitasec:

very interesting

 

[W8nC]

In book "Under the Banner of Heaven" by Jon Krakauer, he writes of a old Mormon practice of "blood atonement" and telling of vicious murders with the victims' throats being slashed, even the baby's throat slashed, with no remorse from the killers. The only way to salvation is to spill the sinner's blood.

And Mr Currie with a gun shot to the head.


Just throwing my morning thoughts out there. :waitasec:

Pretty serious thinking for before lunch.

IMO, I'm still not convinced Mr Currie's suicide is related. I agree, it's possible, but I just feel like it's not. There ARE coincidences.

When I was 14 or 15, I told my social studies teacher I practiced witchcraft. Of course, I didn't, it was just a childish story, for attention and shock value. To "prove" it, I made a wax doll and gave it to him, saying it was him and by giving it to him, I was relinquishing my "power" over him. He accidentally broke the foot off the doll, and that same day, fell on the stairs and sprained his ankle pretty badly. COINCIDENCE, but it got his attention, lol. 10 yrs later, I saw him at a JC football game, and he asked me if I was still a witch!!

 

[Csquare]

Pretty serious thinking for before lunch.

IMO, I'm still not convinced Mr Currie's suicide is related. I agree, it's possible, but I just feel like it's not. There ARE coincidences.

When I was 14 or 15, I told my social studies teacher I practiced witchcraft. Of course, I didn't, it was just a childish story, for attention and shock value. To "prove" it, I made a wax doll and gave it to him, saying it was him and by giving it to him, I was relinquishing my "power" over him. He accidentally broke the foot off the doll, and that same day, fell on the stairs and sprained his ankle pretty badly. COINCIDENCE, but it got his attention, lol. 10 yrs later, I saw him at a JC football game, and he asked me if I was still a witch!!

That was funny. Remind me not to make you angry at me.

 

[W8nC]

That was funny. Remind me not to make you angry at me.

:angel: I wasn't angry! I liked the guy....maybe "flirting" a little, in a childish way, lol.

 

[Dal Gal]

AB was interviewed by FBI on Friday morning, wasn't she? They aren't exactly wet behind the ears...

We know that Cole Co. Sheriffs Dept had received Elizabeth's cell phone records from AT&T at the time of their 10am Friday presser, so if there were a call from AB in there, that would certainly have been a point of questioning that morning. How could she have explained that away? My guess is that she was presented with this plus the diary note, perhaps was told that things would go much easier for her if she just confessed.

The representation thing has me baffled though. I think that they HAD to know they had a legitimate POI in their hands by the time of her interview! I just don't understand why the confession came so easily IF she had representation there!

I honestly hate to continue putting so much weight on ILC's legendary posts, but he did say that when all is said and done, it will come out that LE did a shoddy job from the beginning. If she didn't have representation during her confession, RP would have known about that. Place as much weight on ILC's statements as you wish, but I know that particular statement had us scratching our heads at the time. :banghead:

 

[droptoplesabre]

Pretty serious thinking for before lunch.

IMO, I'm still not convinced Mr Currie's suicide is related. I agree, it's possible, but I just feel like it's not. There ARE coincidences.

When I was 14 or 15, I told my social studies teacher I practiced witchcraft. Of course, I didn't, it was just a childish story, for attention and shock value. To "prove" it, I made a wax doll and gave it to him, saying it was him and by giving it to him, I was relinquishing my "power" over him. He accidentally broke the foot off the doll, and that same day, fell on the stairs and sprained his ankle pretty badly. COINCIDENCE, but it got his attention, lol. 10 yrs later, I saw him at a JC football game, and he asked me if I was still a witch!!

are ya?? :waitasec:

 

[W8nC]

are ya?? :waitasec:

Nope. Never was.