New Tracey Documentary

[Camper]

I am quoting in part, Blue Crabs post to Ned,
"Ned,

PMPT pb, pg 56;

"During the autopsy, Meyer had told Arndt and Trujillo that JonBenet had suffered an injury consistent with vaginal penetration -- digital or OTHERWISE. In his opinion, she'd sustained some kind of genital trauma that could be consistent with sexual contact." (emphasis mine)

IOW, due to the size of the object penetrating her which caused the relatively minor acute and chronic injuries, it was either a finger or a juvenile penis (not an adult)."

--------------Keep in mind part of the staging that was found, included a portion of a VERY Large paint brush that was used to construct the garotte.

If I recall the handle portion was 'NOT' found, do I err in this recollection? For a brush that size, it would equate to the size of a finger or private part as discussed.

We sold art supplies in our store, and since the handle is missing, this would have been a tool to have used in basement Sex-Ed class. My opinion, given the discussion preceding my post here.

Jayelles enjoyed your to the point comment about two perverts discussing 'attache' cases. I personally would find it difficult to imagine them including the word 'gentlemen' in 'their' note. I could see them sitting in a pile of bedroom debris cutting out paper letters to paste on a brown paper grocery bag.

 

[Cherokee]

Having seen the characters on the documentary that Helgoth and Mr X hung around with, I am trying to imagine them discussing their "attaches".

Tracey & co's theory also doesn't address the big bugaboo - the pineapple.

The documentary also inmplied that the ramseys agreed to talk with them - despite being told not to speak with the media. However, the clip which follwed appears to have been footage which may have been filmed for the first documentary but not shown. Patsy comes across as quite agressive in it - spitting peas.

Yeah, that big pineapple bugaboo gets in the way doesn't it. Darn it. If only Patsy or John had seen JonBenet sneak some chunks from the open bowl before walking up to her room from the car on Christmas night. They wouldn't have had to lie about her being asleep, or about being carried up to her room where she didn't wake even though coat, shoes and clothes were removed and long-john bottoms put on. (Try wriggling a six-year-old into long-johns without waking them up.)

If we believe the Ramseys, a child who wet the bed and wore Pull-ups every night was allowed to go to bed without using the toilet or putting on a Pull-up. Yeah sure.

In addition, JonBenet went sound to sleep with her hair pulled up in a hair tie toward the center back top of her head, and another one on the right back side of her head ... coincidentally covering her head wound. Strange hair-do to wear to a Christmas party. Not symmetrical, and uncomfortable to wear to bed. Almost impossible to sleep in.

Of course, the "documentary" (and I use that word loosely) didn't address these issues. It apparently didn't address the biggest bugaboo of all ... that Patsy Ramsey wrote the ransom note.

Obviously, the handwriting (and linguistics) of Helgoth does not match the ransom note. Same for Mr. X. The one piece of evidence we have with a direct undisputed link to JonBenet's death, and there's no mention of it in Tracey's documentary. How convenient. If it doesn't match who we want it to be, we'll just leave it out.

LOL at Helgoth and company discussing their "attaches."

Can you imagine Helgoth and/or Mr. X writing a three page ransom note, careful to put the accent mark on a correctly spelled "attaches." Can you imagine them even using the word "attaches"? Can you see them being concerned enough to write with correct punctuation and indentation? Being worried about John being rested? Caring enough about sentence construction to cross out words and replace them? Wanting $118,000 instead of an even $100,000 or 200,000 or $1,000,000?

"Yo dude,

We have your daughter and we want $1,000,000. Don't try anything stupid. We'll call tomorrow and set up the drop. If you narc on us, you won't see her again."


That's the kind of ransom note Helgoth and Mr. X might have written. Straight to the point, very little punctuation. It is ludicrous to think they wrote a pristine, no creases, no folds, no fingerprints, three page extravaganza claiming to be some ridiculous foreign faction who respected John's business. What do kidnappers care about respecting someone's business?

"Yo, and props going out to your business, man."

That's what Helgoth and Mr. X would have said IF they respected anything.

IMO

 

[BlueCrab]

Keep in mind part of the staging that was found, included a portion of a VERY Large paint brush that was used to construct the garotte.

If I recall the handle portion was 'NOT' found, do I err in this recollection? For a brush that size, it would equate to the size of a finger or private part as discussed.

Camper,

That's correct. By scaling the crime scene photos I estimated the diameter of the paint brush handle to be about 5/8". The handle had been broken twice -- once near the brush part, and again near the tip of the handle. The 4 1/2 inch-long middle section was used as a handle for the ligature device found around JonBenet's neck. The brush part was found in the paint tray. The tip of the paint brush handle is what is missing.

Why the killer would cut or break off and take only the tip of the paint brush handle and leave the other parts of the brush at the crime scene is baffling. The only thing I can think of is close to what you suggest in your post above -- it contained evidence of some kind, perhaps carved into it, and/or it was a sicko's souvenir as a reminder of where it had been.

JMO

 

[Cherokee]

Camper,

That's correct. By scaling the crime scene photos I estimated the diameter of the paint brush handle to be about 5/8". The handle had been broken twice -- once near the brush part, and again near the tip of the handle. The 4 1/2 inch-long middle section was used as a handle for the ligature device found around JonBenet's neck. The brush part was found in the paint tray. The tip of the paint brush handle is what is missing.

Why the killer would cut or break off and take only the tip of the paint brush handle and leave the other parts of the brush at the crime scene is baffling. The only thing I can think of is close to what you suggest in your post above -- it contained evidence of some kind, perhaps carved into it, and/or it was a sicko's souvenir as a reminder of where it had been.

JMO

Or, the tip of the paintbrush had already broken off previous to Christmas night. The tip end might have been used to pry something loose, or been broken in another way, and discarded some time in the past. That's why the tip end was not found in a search of the house.

The paint brush being already broken may have been the reason the perp broke it again, and used the middle part of the brush for the ligature. The perp didn't want to use a new, unspoiled paintbrush, but one that was expendable.


IMO

 

[Camper]

WElllllllll IF IF the tip of this 'special' brush had been broken prior to Christmas, we then have a Bingo! Check your cards.

I hesitate to tell you who I think broke this brush, I think the owner of the brush broke it.

I donut believe that any expert, knows 'how long before' JonBenet was murdered that her hymen was enlarged by devious means.

I do believe that brush had a lengthy history.

Now given that Burke was happy to whittle away with his little swedish army knife (wasn't it?) and mom and housekeeper kept cleaning up the wood chips. Wonder if that time frame coincides with the broken paint brush handle, with 'tip' missing.

IF for example the paint brush were whittled from one direction of the brush to the point where it could be broken easily by hand, one or the other piece may indicate whittling, while the remaining piece may not.

To further expand theoretically, IF IF the whittler wanted specifically the tip end, he may have propped the brush end against something to have stability in the whittling process, just a guess on my part.

I also believe since those times that the Ramseys traveled and left the children in the care of either family members, or the tutor of the Stine boy along with the Stine boy, that the possibility arises about 'boys will be boys'. This is of course my opinion.

The documentary sounds like it has fairy tale tones to it. Do we have a clue on when it will be shown in America?

 

[Jayelles]

Mulling this documentary over.

Part of Kenady's theory that Helgoth was involved was that he had talked of a job that was going to net him and a friend $50-60K (I picked up $50K on as first viewing and I corrected Horace who reported it as $60K - in fact, we were both correct!). Then, Kenady said Helgoth was depressed after Christmas because he didn't get the money.

Let's assume this is valid. It means that Helgoth & Mr X WERE intending to go through with a kidnapping - hoping to get the money. So where were they going to keep JonBenet? Boulder was a pretty built-up area from any film footage I've seen. Mr X lived on a trailer park close by to Helgoth's junk-yard. The documentary shows film footage of that and these trailers are very close together.

There is also the question of how they planned to get her to the holding place. Did they have a vehicle? Where was it parked and why did no-one report seeing it? Or .... if there are reports of this strange parked vehicle on record, do investigators know that either Helgoth or Mr X owned such a vehicle? I suppose it's possible that Helgoth took something from the junkyard - or false license plates from a wreck.

Mr X is supposedly a violent paedophile. I still can't get my head around a paedophile passing up on an opportunity to violate a child to an even greater extent than JonBenet was violated. However, I don't know a lot about these things other than what I have read in true crime books. I have read of cases where the child victim was horribly subjected to rape and sodomy by their sex-crazed attackers. I don't get the impression that the motive for JonBenet's murder was sex.

So if the money WAS the motive, we come back to the fact that they asked for such a paltry amount.

jameson makes a point about credit cards being stolen in the midnight burglaries and not being used by the thief. I would point out that credit cards taken in burglaries are rarely used by the thieves. The reason being that people tend to notice a burglary rather quickly and will stop their credit cards. House burglars aren't usually very sophisticated criminals. Credit card theft is a separate and much more sophisitcated crime which is often run on an international scale (cards stolen in the UK are often used abroad). House burglars are often drug addicts looking for anything that they can sell to fund their habits. If Tracey's documentary was accurate, then we know that Mr X has drug convictions and was most likely a user/addict. I find it hard to believe that he was breaking into houses and not stealing things to sell. That sounds like a different kind of criminal to me. More of a stalker type.

That poor lamb. One can't begin to imagine what the final minutes of her life must have been like.

 

[Nedthan Johns]

Having seen the characters on the documentary that Helgoth and Mr X hung around with, I am trying to imagine them discussing their "attaches".

Ned: Well that just about SUMS up this thread now doesn't it?

Lou’s been out fishing. Congratulations, he is fast on the heels of most likely a pedophile, burglar. But what this guy is NOT is the Ramsey’s make believe Intruder.

THERE WAS NO INTURDER. AND THERE ARE 3 KEY REASONS THERE CAN NEVER BE ONE:

1.) RANSON NOTE
2.) PINEAPPLE
3.) HAIR TIES

One CANNOT add these factors into ANY intruder theory. Just doesn’t work. Patsy Ramsey implicated herself with the very WORDS she used in the note, which would NEVER have been thought of by the likes of Helgoth and his associate. Put ery simply, She $ucked up. Had she NOT rambled on, remembered that JB was awake when she arrived home, and had gotten her story straight, they would have pulled off the perfect murder. But that just isn’t the case, and NO MATTER what, we ALWAYS come back to Patsy. The crime is WHAT it is. A child struck in the head in a fit of rage, STAGED to LOOK like a kidnapping, and sexual assult.

Continuing to search for intruders in this case is actually becoming quite comical, however extremely sad, knowing people like Tracey, who doesn’t know the FACTS of this case is allowed to continue to mislead the public. We all better hope this guy is CAUGHT before Lou kicks the bucket, because if he isn’t, the MYTH will always live on.

I am EXTREMELY good at locating people. I have always said give me a name and a city, I will do the rest. It is costly, but I would be willing to use some of my funds to get a pedophile off the streets, and get on with the investigation of this case. I assume it won’t be long before his name is released to the public.

 

[Nehemiah]

If we believe the Ramseys, a child who wet the bed and wore Pull-ups every night was allowed to go to bed without using the toilet or putting on a Pull-up. Yeah sure.

In addition, JonBenet went sound to sleep with her hair pulled up in a hair tie toward the center back top of her head, and another one on the right back side of her head ... coincidentally covering her head wound. Strange hair-do to wear to a Christmas party. Not symmetrical, and uncomfortable to wear to bed. Almost impossible to sleep in. IMO

Good post, Cherokee. I find that very interesting what you said about JB's usual routine not being carried out with the bathroom/pull ups, esp. in a bedwetting situation and knowing they would get up early and be out the door, leaving behind a potential wet bed.

Regarding the hair, I remember the two ponytails, but where did you get the info that the bottom ponytail was on the right back side of her head? I don't think I've ever read that.

Thanks, Nehemiah

IMO

 

[Jayelles]

I assume it won’t be long before his name is released to the public.

It might be sooner than you think ;-)

 

[Jayelles]

Nehemiah,

From the autopsy report:-

The scalp is covered by long blonde hair which is fixed in two ponytails, one on top of the head secured by a cloth hair tie and blue elastic band, and one in the lower back of the head secured by a blue elastic band.

It does sound frightfully uncomfortable and quite an unusual hairstyle - unless they were originally tethered together in some way. Of course, it's possible that the little girls were playing hairstylists at the Whites. Just last week, my youngest was playing with the kids in the neighbourhood and a couple of the older girls who were mothering her came to the door and asked if they could do her hair. I agreed and they then proceeded to ask for a variety of hair decorations which my Tootsie obligingly fetched from her "bauble box". I watched from a window as Tootsie sat on the pavement whilst the girls teased and titivated her hair into an "amazing" creation!

 

[TLynn]

Has anyone heard or seen a picture of how JonBenet's hair was styled at the White's?

Wasn't her hair straight in the Ramsey's "last photo" taken that Christmas morning?

 

[VespaElf]

It was Ned(I belive) who suggested perhaps JBR's hair was being "sectioned off" with the hair ties so Patsy could "touch-up" her hair w/ the dye(all the better for JBR to hit her head on a hard bathroom surface and for Patsy to be wearing gloves!).
That would explain why it was up in such an odd arrangment (sleeping with a ponytail directly on the back of your head?very uncomfortable!)

 

[Cherokee]

Nehemiah,

From the autopsy report:-
Quote:
The scalp is covered by long blonde hair which is fixed in two ponytails, one on top of the head secured by a cloth hair tie and blue elastic band, and one in the lower back of the head secured by a blue elastic band.

Thanks, Jay, for finding the quote Nehemiah requested.

Usually, if there is one ponytail, it is at the back of the head towards the top. If there are two ponytails, they are at the sides of the head and symmetrical. JonBenet's hairstyle is neither, and is quite odd. Even stranger is the Ramsey claim that JonBenet SLEPT with her hair that way.

It does sound frightfully uncomfortable and quite an unusual hairstyle - unless they were originally tethered together in some way. Of course, it's possible that the little girls were playing hairstylists at the Whites.

It's true little girls like to play hairdresser, and JonBenet may have played hairdresser at the White's house ... but who puts their child to bed with a ponytail ON THE SIDE or LOWER BACK of their head?

I don't know of ANY child who could sleep with a ponytail sticking into the side of their head.

Even if your child has made a fantastic "creation" out of their hair, a person removes all impediments to sleep by taking out barrettes, hair clips, elastic bands, and hair ties before going to bed. I have never heard of anyone putting their child to bed with one ponytail, much less TWO.

And that is my point. There is something wrong with this picture.

The Christmas morning photo shows JonBenet with her hair gathered at the back and lying on her shoulders. JonBenet's body was found with two non-symmetrical ponytails.

LE has never released the photos taken at the White's Christmas party. Why?

Do they show JonBenet's hair down on her shoulders? Does LE know that JonBenet left the White's house with her hair down, but was found with her hair in ponytails?

There is something in those photos that is incriminating evidence. There is more evidence that implicates the Ramseys than we know.


IMO

 

[Nehemiah]

Cherokee, I still get the impression as before when I read the autopsy--that she had one ponytail high up in the back, and another ponytail directly underneath that one, made up of the hair that would have been left hanging down. In fact, I have my hair like that right now. However, I cannot imagine one sleeping like that. I don't really think that is a fashionable style; mine is like that just to get it off my face tonight.

The thing that impressed me most was the blue hair ties. We know she wasn't wearing blue, yet she had blue ties in her hair which didn't match her clothes. That in itself doesn't sound right to me. A fashion-conscious mom such as Patsy wouldn't normally do that.

IMO

 

[Jayelles]

Cherokee, I still get the impression as before when I read the autopsy--that she had one ponytail high up in the back, and another ponytail directly underneath that one, made up of the hair that would have been left hanging down. In fact, I have my hair like that right now. However, I cannot imagine one sleeping like that. I don't really think that is a fashionable style; mine is like that just to get it off my face tonight.

The thing that impressed me most was the blue hair ties. We know she wasn't wearing blue, yet she had blue ties in her hair which didn't match her clothes. That in itself doesn't sound right to me. A fashion-conscious mom such as Patsy wouldn't normally do that.

IMO

Good point about the blue hair ties. I'd always trty and co-ordinate hair ties with the outfit - unless I was going to tie ribbons or some other fancy baubles on top of the hair ties. Some of the fancy hair baubles don't hold the hair together very well and need a "foundation".

 

[Nehemiah]

I brought this thread out of hiding so that we could compare the comments of the documentary that will air this Saturday with this documentary.

This thread takes lots of directions, but is good reading and a refresher to prepare us for the upcoming show.

 

[Eagle1]

You asked me in some other thread, that I can't find, where does it say JonBenet was crying at the party on the 23rd. I'm sure some others will remember which book that was in. It'd take me a while to find it. Will try.

Glad I saw your name at the end of this thread and found out about the docu going to be this Saturday night.