NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #10

[leilarose68]

I feel like what makes this case so compelling is that it's impossible to really rule out any scenario with certainty! There've been times when I really go far down one of the rabbit holes and think, oh my word, that's it...and others when I've followed another path and see how it could well be the case instead.

Scoops, I have shamelessly stalked this forum for a while now + have read many of your past posts on your theory. While I personally believe suicide was not the ultimate fate of Maura, you have some strong points that point to some kind of...ending. Or a dramatic change, for sure.

I keep trying to put myself in Maura's shoes on February 9th, 2004...(we were on the same campus that day! aahh!) but like, what was her mindset...and I think whatever she was doing, whether she had deliberate plans or just wanted to get away, I think she was definitely taking those actions because she wanted to regain a sense of control over her life. However misdirected or maybe counterproductive some of those actions were (at the time or in hindsight) - she was still making choices and doing things deliberately.

Contrast this with her seemingly "catatonic state" late Thursday/early Friday before she went missing...this was someone who was going through something difficult, was processing it, and by Monday had decided she was going to do something on her own terms.

Whether that was as extreme as suicide or less drastically just giving life as she knew it the finger for a few days...we just cannot know at this point, but it's why digging deeper into all possibilities is useful to figuring it out.

I think it's just impossible to know until Maura's dad and her friends decide to open up about her life and especially that weekend before she disappeared. We really don't know too much about her as a person, and that has been quite deliberate. If we did, we could probably make a more educated guess as to her fate.

 

[Captain_Khan]

You don't pack up your dorm room, turn in your lab coat (which by the way you would still need since the semester just started) to go on a two day vacation after having just spent over a month on vacation like 10 to 14 days earlier.

But yeah, I'm the one explaining things away.

Just in advance – I do not intend for anything I say to come across as personal, or as an attack on anyone’s viewpoint. I think it’s perfectly valid to believe Maura intended to kill herself – it’s just a view I don’t buy into myself. I really like how this thread is able to support many posters with multiple viewpoints without imploding into petty squabbles like some forums and threads do (Madeline McCann forum, I’m looking at you). So please don’t interpret anything I say as being rude or personal – I really like the conversational discussion we have going on here. Anyway!

I agree that you don’t pack up your dorm room, return a borrowed lab coat etc to go on vacation for two days. My stance has been leaning towards the idea that Maura was going somewhere to do something deliberately – but not kill herself. I also believe she intended to leave UMass as soon as she returned. That would explain returning items and packing her room far more clearly.

I was actually arguing against the idea that Maura intended to write a suicide note at the hotel she planned to stay at. In my mind, the logic seems to be:
a) Maura was suicidal
b) Maura was intending to stay in a hotel
c) Maura had not written a suicide note
Therefore:
d) Maura planned to write her note in the hotel.

To me, that’s a pretty large leap of faith. It means you have to believe that Maura was suicidal (which I don’t) – once you discount the idea she was suicidal, the lack of a note is totally logical, and doesn’t require explaining away. If there were other things that supported this idea – maybe, a pad and paper found in her car, or a message to someone that indicated she wasn’t coming back, then I could see it as being more likely.

Taking the time to pack up your things and returning borrowed items (but not taking the time to write a note) are not common actions of suicidal people – in my mind, that showed a certain element of control. I think if Maura was planning things this thoroughly, it would make more sense for her to write the note at her computer, or just in her dorm before setting off.

 

[scoops]

Just in advance – I do not intend for anything I say to come across as personal, or as an attack on anyone’s viewpoint. I think it’s perfectly valid to believe Maura intended to kill herself – it’s just a view I don’t buy into myself. I really like how this thread is able to support many posters with multiple viewpoints without imploding into petty squabbles like some forums and threads do (Madeline McCann forum, I’m looking at you). So please don’t interpret anything I say as being rude or personal – I really like the conversational discussion we have going on here. Anyway!

I agree that you don’t pack up your dorm room, return a borrowed lab coat etc to go on vacation for two days. My stance has been leaning towards the idea that Maura was going somewhere to do something deliberately – but not kill herself. I also believe she intended to leave UMass as soon as she returned. That would explain returning items and packing her room far more clearly.

I was actually arguing against the idea that Maura intended to write a suicide note at the hotel she planned to stay at. In my mind, the logic seems to be:
a) Maura was suicidal
b) Maura was intending to stay in a hotel
c) Maura had not written a suicide note
Therefore:
d) Maura planned to write her note in the hotel.

To me, that’s a pretty large leap of faith. It means you have to believe that Maura was suicidal (which I don’t) – once you discount the idea she was suicidal, the lack of a note is totally logical, and doesn’t require explaining away. If there were other things that supported this idea – maybe, a pad and paper found in her car, or a message to someone that indicated she wasn’t coming back, then I could see it as being more likely.

Taking the time to pack up your things and returning borrowed items (but not taking the time to write a note) are not common actions of suicidal people – in my mind, that showed a certain element of control. I think if Maura was planning things this thoroughly, it would make more sense for her to write the note at her computer, or just in her dorm before setting off.

And I should have been more clear.

My reply wasn't directed at you, but rather the information that has been "Fed" to the public over the years - that has proven to have no basis in fact - yet because a family spokesperson says it, the majority of people believe it without question ------ AKA Spin.

Typically, I stay away from hypotheticals and just focus on what is truly known and also what has been said (in quotes vs. heresay) from people that would have knowledge and expertise about this case. That is why I have had a more natural transition over the years from believing Maura succumbed to the elements to Maura took her own life. I didn't come up with either one of those theories and then decide to just stick to them, even if things came out that went against them. I have let the information form my theory and not the other way around.

The only part of my theory that could even come close to being hypothetical would be the suicide note at the hotel thing. But I don't see that as a stretch of truth at all. I see it as more of a natural progression of a very detailed plan that Maura had made.

 

[southernyankee]

Scoops, I'm curious...supposing Maura was planning or did commit suicide, is your belief that she was aiming to drink herself to death (maybe in a hotel room, or even out in the cold)? Thus - her cause of death would be acute alcohol poisoning (and/or hypothermia)? If not either of these...what else is there among the known evidence that suggests the means?

I know it might sound morbid, but deducing the method behind it (if that is what really happened) might be more helpful in determining where exactly she ended up after the car crash in NH.

 

[scoops]

Scoops, I'm curious...supposing Maura was planning or did commit suicide, is your belief that she was aiming to drink herself to death (maybe in a hotel room, or even out in the cold)? Thus - her cause of death would be acute alcohol poisoning (and/or hypothermia)? If not either of these...what else is there among the known evidence that suggests the means?

I know it might sound morbid, but deducing the method behind it (if that is what really happened) might be more helpful in determining where exactly she ended up after the car crash in NH.

I have always believed she would be outdoors and somewhere where she could have a majestic type of a view.

If this was solely just about hating life and wanting to end it all, I really do believe Maura would've found much easier means like doing it in her dorm room or somewhere near where she lived.

But this was someone that loved the White Mountains.

I almost have always looked at this as like someone that has been told they only have 24 hours to live and you can do anything you want in those final 24.

I (don't believe that happened to Maura) but I do believe her mind-set might have been similar in the notion that in her final 24 hours, I am almost certain she would want to spend that time in the white mountains.

 

[Captain_Khan]

Typically, I stay away from hypotheticals and just focus on what is truly known and also what has been said (in quotes vs. heresay) from people that would have knowledge and expertise about this case. That is why I have had a more natural transition over the years from believing Maura succumbed to the elements to Maura took her own life. I didn't come up with either one of those theories and then decide to just stick to them, even if things came out that went against them. I have let the information form my theory and not the other way around.

The only part of my theory that could even come close to being hypothetical would be the suicide note at the hotel thing. But I don't see that as a stretch of truth at all. I see it as more of a natural progression of a very detailed plan that Maura had made.

I am the same, in that I try to piece together the information that has been released over the several years I have been following this case, and tried to come to my own conclusions without blinding following what others have put forward. I first found out about the Maura Murray case from a thread posted on Something Awful, and just read around the case from there - hardly ever posting anything. I eventually decided to stay away from Topix, as it seemed to be a breeding ground for insanity - Dirtbag 112 would be a case in point.

I am a follower of Renner's blog, and have been for quite some time. I think he's made some fantastic discoveries, but I think he's barking up the wrong tree with his suggestion that Maura was driving in tandem with someone. He promises his book will provide some more 'proof' of this, but I remain skeptical. I don't wish to cast doubt on the validity of all of his reporting - but it's very careful to note that he's pushing an agenda, and now trying to flog us a book.

I think the issue is that without knowing much about Maura's general demeanor, it's very hard to know for certain if she was or was not suicidal. I can easily understand why some say she was (emotionally disturbed, irrational behavior, etc). I take the view that many people act irrationally and suffer emotional disturbance without resorting to taking their own life. It's just one of those things that there is no definitive proof one way or the other, and until something else is discovered which settles the matter, we can only rely on our gut feelings.

 

[Truthful Lies]

I have kept up on this case from time to time...I stop by and read the posts....and the ones about her packing up her dorm room not jiving with suicidal ideation is bugging me. I, personally, have been in that mind frame in my past and part of my reluctance (really rational, I know...) was that my family would have the task of packing up my stuff. I think packing up belongings could def. be an action of a person with SI - many with SI seem perfectly fine (or even very happy) once they've made their decision. Not saying this was Maura, and forgive me for reaching, but if one was in a manic state, whether mixed or unmixed, sometimes it gives them the "boost" they've been needing to carry out their plan. Again, MOO from observing patients and working with many psych providers in an office.


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[mommylicious]

Still reading up on the case but just a few things that stood out to me:

I don't think the absence of a suicide note means that she was not suicidal, nor do I think it means she was waiting to get to the hotel to write one. There are other cases of suicides w/o a note so I don't put a lot of weight in the absence of a note.

Re: the rag in the tailpipe. I honestly had no idea that it was so finicky - that it would need to be placed "just so" to achieve the effect of fumes backing up into the car. And while most of the time you hear about people being found in garage, I guess I've never processed that fact and wouldn't have, personally, thought about whether or not it would have worked outdoors.

In terms of placing the rag/cloth in the pipe to hide it, that's probably not someplace I would have thought of, especially if I was just cleaning up alcohol or something. I'd have taken it with me or buried it/hidden it somewhere in the woods if I was taking off anyhow. Did we ever find out what the rag was? Was it processed as evidence? Wouldn't the tailpipe have been too hot to stuff something into?

Do we know anything more about the phone call that upset her so much that she was escorted back to her room - who it was from? Contents of the call? That seems to be the catalyst that set the rest in motion.

I thought I'd read that some of the alcohol she'd purchased was missing from the car (correct me if I'm wrong). When she was supposedly seen running along the road, was she carrying anything?

 

[scoops]

Still reading up on the case but just a few things that stood out to me:

I don't think the absence of a suicide note means that she was not suicidal, nor do I think it means she was waiting to get to the hotel to write one. There are other cases of suicides w/o a note so I don't put a lot of weight in the absence of a note.

Re: the rag in the tailpipe. I honestly had no idea that it was so finicky - that it would need to be placed "just so" to achieve the effect of fumes backing up into the car. And while most of the time you hear about people being found in garage, I guess I've never processed that fact and wouldn't have, personally, thought about whether or not it would have worked outdoors.

In terms of placing the rag/cloth in the pipe to hide it, that's probably not someplace I would have thought of, especially if I was just cleaning up alcohol or something. I'd have taken it with me or buried it/hidden it somewhere in the woods if I was taking off anyhow. Did we ever find out what the rag was? Was it processed as evidence? Wouldn't the tailpipe have been too hot to stuff something into?

Do we know anything more about the phone call that upset her so much that she was escorted back to her room - who it was from? Contents of the call? That seems to be the catalyst that set the rest in motion.

I thought I'd read that some of the alcohol she'd purchased was missing from the car (correct me if I'm wrong). When she was supposedly seen running along the road, was she carrying anything?

Nothing has ever been stated on what kind of rag it was or what police did with it.

The lead investigator on the case did mention it (rag in the tailpipe) as a possible suicide attempt, but he didn't know conclusively for sure.

No one knows for certain if a phone call is what upset maura that thursday night. When she was found by her supervisor, she wasn't on a phone.

based on what police and family deducted, Maura would've had a backpack and some alcohol and her cell phone when she departed her car. Those were the items that police/family had accounted for and discovered were missing when maura went missing.

 

[leilarose68]

I have always believed she would be outdoors and somewhere where she could have a majestic type of a view.

If this was solely just about hating life and wanting to end it all, I really do believe Maura would've found much easier means like doing it in her dorm room or somewhere near where she lived.

But this was someone that loved the White Mountains.

I almost have always looked at this as like someone that has been told they only have 24 hours to live and you can do anything you want in those final 24.

I (don't believe that happened to Maura) but I do believe her mind-set might have been similar in the notion that in her final 24 hours, I am almost certain she would want to spend that time in the white mountains.

I think there is a bit of a misconception out there about dying in the cold as some slow, painful death. Quite the contrary, actually.
If Maura indeed set out to commit suicide, I definitely think she was planning on drinking tons and letting the cold take her. I wouldn't be surprised if this was mentioned in that book she loved so much. If you drink enough, it's actually probably the most painless method of suicide... you don't really feel anything because your body shuts down and your mind drifts off so quickly.

 

[leilarose68]

Still reading up on the case but just a few things that stood out to me:

I don't think the absence of a suicide note means that she was not suicidal, nor do I think it means she was waiting to get to the hotel to write one. There are other cases of suicides w/o a note so I don't put a lot of weight in the absence of a note.

Re: the rag in the tailpipe. I honestly had no idea that it was so finicky - that it would need to be placed "just so" to achieve the effect of fumes backing up into the car. And while most of the time you hear about people being found in garage, I guess I've never processed that fact and wouldn't have, personally, thought about whether or not it would have worked outdoors.

In terms of placing the rag/cloth in the pipe to hide it, that's probably not someplace I would have thought of, especially if I was just cleaning up alcohol or something. I'd have taken it with me or buried it/hidden it somewhere in the woods if I was taking off anyhow. Did we ever find out what the rag was? Was it processed as evidence? Wouldn't the tailpipe have been too hot to stuff something into?

Do we know anything more about the phone call that upset her so much that she was escorted back to her room - who it was from? Contents of the call? That seems to be the catalyst that set the rest in motion.

I thought I'd read that some of the alcohol she'd purchased was missing from the car (correct me if I'm wrong). When she was supposedly seen running along the road, was she carrying anything?

Re: the call, you might want to check out this blog post if you haven't already

http://mauramurray.blogspot.com/2011/06/phone-call.html

maura's supervisor talks about maura and the phone call, and this is pretty much all we know about it. maura's sister denies having had any troubling late night phone call w maura so stuff still doesn't make sense.

 

[Love Coco]

To me, I think the red truck that witness Welma Robinson became creeped out by and suspicious of that night, has to have something to do with it. The timing adds up to when it would have passed Maura, exactly.

If Maura were indeed suicidal, she would have been more inclined to take risks without caring about her personal safety - so she may have got into the red truck (or any other vehicle), because she just didn't care/wasn't scared.

 

[Nordicpete]

To me, I think the red truck that witness Welma Robinson became creeped out by and suspicious of that night, has to have something to do with it. The timing adds up to when it would have passed Maura, exactly.

If Maura were indeed suicidal, she would have been more inclined to take risks without caring about her personal safety - so she may have got into the red truck (or any other vehicle), because she just didn't care/wasn't scared.

I agree with your points here.
The big question is rather whether the driver of the red truck was a friend or foe of Maura's. Arguments could be made for both scenarios.

 

[nevereverever]

Hi everyone. I've been following Maura's case off and on since I saw her episode on Disappeared. Just recently found WS, though, and have been catching up on some cases I had been following on my own.

I just wanted to point out re: the lack of a suicide note, the vast majority of suicides do not involve a note. I have read statistics of anywhere from 15-35% involve a note. So, to me, no note, while a factor to consider, doesn't in any way rule out a suicide.

Also, there are a lot of misconceptions about how suicidal people act in the last few days or even moments prior to their death. They often continue on with normal plans for the future. For example, having plans to go out with a friend a couple days later, or to attend a specific party next week, are not inconsistent with someone being suicidal. Also, they often don't overtly appear sad or lethargic. This is sometimes because, after a long period of pain, they have finally made their decision to end it, and feel a sense of peace. Anyway, just wanted to point out that there are a lot of things about the behavior of truly suicidal people that seems counterintuitive. So, you can't apply just "normal" logic, as it were, to it.

I don't know what happened to Maura. None of us do, of course. I do think the credible evidence points to suicide, though. No matter, her family deserves some closure, so I do hope that she is found someday.

 

[ontheclock]

Hi everyone. I've been following Maura's case off and on since I saw her episode on Disappeared. Just recently found WS, though, and have been catching up on some cases I had been following on my own.

I just wanted to point out re: the lack of a suicide note, the vast majority of suicides do not involve a note. I have read statistics of anywhere from 15-35% involve a note. So, to me, no note, while a factor to consider, doesn't in any way rule out a suicide.

Also, there are a lot of misconceptions about how suicidal people act in the last few days or even moments prior to their death. They often continue on with normal plans for the future. For example, having plans to go out with a friend a couple days later, or to attend a specific party next week, are not inconsistent with someone being suicidal. Also, they often don't overtly appear sad or lethargic. This is sometimes because, after a long period of pain, they have finally made their decision to end it, and feel a sense of peace. Anyway, just wanted to point out that there are a lot of things about the behavior of truly suicidal people that seems counterintuitive. So, you can't apply just "normal" logic, as it were, to it.

I don't know what happened to Maura. None of us do, of course. I do think the credible evidence points to suicide, though. No matter, her family deserves some closure, so I do hope that she is found someday.

Your points are valid. I'm 50% suicide, 50% had to/wanted to get away for a while and something bad happened. I'm not sure what the "bad" thing is (could also be suicide).

 

[Darkness]

As of today, there are less than 80 days until the 10th anniversary of Maura's disappearance.

10 years!!

No remains found from exposure or suicide.

No ex-girlfriend coming forward saying her ex-boyfriend had something to do with this.

No confirmed sightings of Maura somewhere in her new life.

BA the bus driver pulls away because Maura says she doesn't need any help.

The neighbor across the street see movement at the back of her car.

Maura probably starts to hear the police sirens heading in her direction, several cars go by, Maura walks east about 100 feet give or take.

And then its like a beam of light comes out of the sky and takes her.......nothing but silence for the next 10 years. I hope its not another 10 years before the truth of what happened is known......

Somebody knows something.......its time to get this off your chest.

 

[takeitfromme412]

As of today, there are less than 80 days until the 10th anniversary of Maura's disappearance.

10 years!!

No remains found from exposure or suicide.

No ex-girlfriend coming forward saying her ex-boyfriend had something to do with this.

No confirmed sightings of Maura somewhere in her new life.

BA the bus driver pulls away because Maura says she doesn't need any help.

The neighbor across the street see movement at the back of her car.

Maura probably starts to hear the police sirens heading in her direction, several cars go by, Maura walks east about 100 feet give or take.

And then its like a beam of light comes out of the sky and takes her.......nothing but silence for the next 10 years. I hope its not another 10 years before the truth of what happened is known......

Somebody knows something.......its time to get this off your chest.

I could not agree with you more.... no one falls into a vortex and then is never heard from again.... someone knows something and they need to start talking

 

[gnomony]

Maura probably starts to hear the police sirens heading in her direction...

Not to take anything away from your eloquent posting, but I'm not sure the police in that rural area would run the siren when responding to a report of a car in a snowbank. My guess is that they would run the lights.

 

[OldSteve]

Regarding % of those who commit suicide and don't leave a note - while it appears 2/3 do NOT leave a note; unfortunately, that statistic is a very general one.
It would be interesting to know if that percent holds true for young women, and for those with families, etc...
The 2/3 statistic could be very much skewed by including homeless, those on drugs, those who are have no family, etc.... I'm not saying it is, but just that I would like more info...

 

[nevereverever]

Regarding % of those who commit suicide and don't leave a note - while it appears 2/3 do NOT leave a note; unfortunately, that statistic is a very general one.
It would be interesting to know if that percent holds true for young women, and for those with families, etc...
The 2/3 statistic could be very much skewed by including homeless, those on drugs, those who are have no family, etc.... I'm not saying it is, but just that I would like more info...

I'm not sure there are good statistics on that. Even the reading I was doing indicated that somewhere between 11 and 34 percent leave notes, so I think this is based on a review of many different studies. There is no big database that tracks it all is the problem, I think. This article about suicide notes was interesting: http://www.freep.com/article/20120909/FEATURES01/309090030/ At the bottom, it mentions that one study found men leave notes more often than women; but another study found the opposite.

Another interesting thing I found in another article was that most notes don't actually mention the intention to commit suicide. They often contain expressions of concern for the pain of loved ones and directions on how to distribute their property. (There are actually some interesting differences, too, in genuine suicide notes and simulated ones, though that's not relevant here.)

At any rate, the point is that the lack of a note, while one factor among many to consider in any suspicious death or disappearance, is hardly conclusive of anything, since most people don't leave a note.