NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #11

[carpanthers]

This is exactly what I don't understand about you two.

I have never said my theory is right and the rest of them are not correct.

I said I believe my theory because of my research.

Any theory is fine and dandy, but (I believe I have the right) to question other theories and how those theories developed.

If you want to question other people's theories, that should be encouraged. But you also must answer questions about your own.

 

[scoops]

Indicators of a possible suicide:

Maura packed up very specific sentimental items to take with her to the mountains while leaving most of her valuables in her dorm.
Maura left in late afternoon (intentionally arriving to the white mountains at dark)
Maura had a book with her (that detailed survival attempts in the white mountains and the creative lengths and fight people put up trying to find a way to survive, but eventually led to death anyways).
Maura avoided contact with everyone and had her phone turned off for every second of her trip but one short (two minute span) where she turned her phone on and checked for messages).
Maura emptied her bank account
Maura purchased alcohol and by all known accounts was going to be consuming alcohol alone
Maura had just finished a disturbing weekend that included some puzzling choices (with most of the weekend in direct witness from her father).
Her father urgently called 911 (not to get an update) but to pass along information about Maura when he found out she went missing in the white mountains
This is known fact because the investigating officer said the first words out of fred's mouth (during his 911 call) was that Maura had come to the white mountains to do personal harm to herself
the rag in the tailpipe, no one knows why she had it there, but the lead investigator brought up suicide attempt as a possibility without giving any other scenarios
A stranded Maura refused help when help was really needed
Instead of grabbing her sentimental values and values in general, Maura is believed to have disappeared with just her backpack and some bottles of alcohol (vodka).
Maura had turned in her lab coat the very day she went missing (even though she had just began clinicals)
While many thoughts were likely racing through fred's mind as he drove to the white mountains, he began with the phone call to 911 talking about Maura being suicidal and still some 24-48 hours later, he was still talking about Maura being suicidal. In other words, this was not a fleeting thought of his that he just had for one second like it has been described.

I could probably go on, but I think I have at least provided a little bit of the information I have researched that at least warrants discussion about a possible suicide theory. (or maybe I am just pulling it out of thin air).

I would love to see some point by point references for the tandem drive theory or the local dirtbag theory or any other theory.

From the guy that never provides anything.

 

[carpanthers]

Indicators of a possible suicide:

Maura packed up very specific sentimental items to take with her to the mountains while leaving most of her valuables in her dorm.
Maura left in late afternoon (intentionally arriving to the white mountains at dark)
Maura had a book with her (that detailed survival attempts in the white mountains and the creative lengths and fight people put up trying to find a way to survive, but eventually led to death anyways).
Maura avoided contact with everyone and had her phone turned off for every second of her trip but one short (two minute span) where she turned her phone on and checked for messages).
Maura emptied her bank account
Maura purchased alcohol and by all known accounts was going to be consuming alcohol alone
Maura had just finished a disturbing weekend that included some puzzling choices (with most of the weekend in direct witness from her father).
Her father urgently called 911 (not to get an update) but to pass along information about Maura when he found out she went missing in the white mountains
This is known fact because the investigating officer said the first words out of fred's mouth (during his 911 call) was that Maura had come to the white mountains to do personal harm to herself
the rag in the tailpipe, no one knows why she had it there, but the lead investigator brought up suicide attempt as a possibility without giving any other scenarios
A stranded Maura refused help when help was really needed
Instead of grabbing her sentimental values and values in general, Maura is believed to have disappeared with just her backpack and some bottles of alcohol (vodka).
Maura had turned in her lab coat the very day she went missing (even though she had just began clinicals)
While many thoughts were likely racing through fred's mind as he drove to the white mountains, he began with the phone call to 911 talking about Maura being suicidal and still some 24-48 hours later, he was still talking about Maura being suicidal. In other words, this was not a fleeting thought of his that he just had for one second like it has been described.

I could probably go on, but I think I have at least provided a little bit of the information I have researched that at least warrants discussion about a possible suicide theory. (or maybe I am just pulling it out of thin air).

I would love to see some point by point references for the tandem drive theory or the local dirtbag theory or any other theory.

From the guy that never provides anything.

"Maura packed up very specific sentimental items to take with her to the mountains while leaving most of her valuables in her dorm."

She brought the necklace that Billy gave her and a stuffed monkey. Are there any other sentimental items that we do not know about? How do sentimental items tend to indicate suicide more than they indicate the idea that someone may not be returning to a particular place?

"Maura left in late afternoon (intentionally arriving to the white mountains at dark)"

I agree that she left in the late afternoon. How do we know this is because she wanted to arrive after dark? Couldn’t it be because she was busy packing her room? You said you think she packed it before she left, you don’t think she had it packed already.

"Maura had a book with her (that detailed survival attempts in the white mountains and the creative lengths and fight people put up trying to find a way to survive, but eventually led to death anyways)."

How does a book about survival attempts where the individuals who attempt them perish suggest suicide? Why would Maura plan to survive and fail? If she had a book about people who failed to survive, doesn’t that suggest that she wanted to avoid these mistakes more than it suggests that she was trying to emulate them? None of the people in this book were suicidal, to my knowledge. These people had the intent to survive. If the book implies that Maura was planning to survive in the White Mountains, doesn’t this also speak against suicide? I contend that it suggests nothing.

"Maura avoided contact with everyone and had her phone turned off for every second of her trip but one short (two minute span) where she turned her phone on and checked for messages)."

Doesn’t this speak to escape? She doesn’t turn her phone off until right before or after she crosses the New Hampshire border. Doesn’t this mean that she doesn’t want people to know she is in New Hampshire, or, simply that she does not want to answer questions about where she will be?

"Maura emptied her bank account"

Yes, but how does this suggest suicide more than it suggests that she didn’t want people to know she was in New Hampshire? Wouldn’t she want to avoid a paper trail if she wanted to hide? We know that she took $280, and we know that she spent about $40 on alcohol and bought snacks, right? So why take all $280 unless you have other plans for it? If it was for a motel room, why would Maura presume that a motel room would be available? If she thought it would be easy to get a motel room, why did she call about a two bedroom condo? If she called about renting a two bedroom condo in Bartlett in the middle of ski season on one day’s notice, shouldn’t we presume that she had more money than $280? If she didn’t, why would she think she could afford this? She went to the White Mountains frequently, she would know how expensive lodging is in the winter.

"Maura purchased alcohol and by all known accounts was going to be consuming alcohol alone"

Drinking alone doesn’t make you suicidal. She brought a box of wine, the Coke bottle with the red liquid, maybe Seagram’s and maybe the ingredients for cocktails (depending on which account). None of these are a good choice of alcohol to drink yourself to death, except maybe vodka, which we aren’t sure she had. In the only account I know of where she had vodka, she also had Bailey’s and Kahlua, which would suggest that she wanted to make mudslides.

"Maura had just finished a disturbing weekend that included some puzzling choices (with most of the weekend in direct witness from her father)".

Her father chose to lie on the record about this investigation, and specifically about this disturbing weekend. I contend that we do not know that Maura made puzzling choices this weekend, and I hope you will elaborate more on this point.

"Her father urgently called 911 (not to get an update) but to pass along information about Maura when he found out she went missing in the white mountains
This is known fact because the investigating officer said the first words out of fred's mouth (during his 911 call) was that Maura had come to the white mountains to do personal harm to herself"

If police were looking for my daughter, I would certainly call the police and offer them any insight I might have. Just because Fred was concerned about this possibility does not mean that it is what happened.

"the rag in the tailpipe, no one knows why she had it there, but the lead investigator brought up suicide attempt as a possibility without giving any other scenarios"

“As to the rag, why couldn't Fred have been telling the truth regarding this issue? If we don't presume that every word out of his mouth is a lie to make us think she isn't suicidal, then why couldn't this be true? If Fred Murray wants us to think that somebody else killed her, why wouldn't he tell us that a "local dirtbag" put that rag in her tailpipe intending to follow her and do her harm? Butch Atwood said she was shivering at the scene, but she was still behind the wheel when he arrived. Why is she shivering? Is it because she is cold? If she is still behind the wheel, doesn't this imply that Bruce Atwood arrived on the scene very quickly? Isn't this what the Westman's told us they witnessed from their kitchen window? Wasn't it supposed to be about 30 degrees outside? Why would she already be cold? Was her heater broken? Isn't it possible that she is shivering from being cold? Isn't it possible that she is cold because she had already been standing outside her car, perhaps because it had been smoking noticeably, and she opened her trunk and got out her roadside kit and found the rag, the rag that her father told us belongs to her and not some local dirtbag, and that he specifically told her to do this to prevent the car from creating smoke? Isn't it possible that she got out of her car and shoved this rag in her tailpipe to prevent it from smoking, like her father told her to? Making her cold enough to shiver? Maybe making her stall as she slowed to make the turn at the Weathered Barn? Explaining the acceleration before the crash that the Westmans have always told us that they heard?”

"A stranded Maura refused help when help was really needed"

She does not want police to find her at the scene of this crash. The Westmans thought they saw tail-lights, right? And there were tire tracks in the snowbank, proving that Maura had backed the car back onto the road? She presumably hid the Coke bottle, the only open container that we know of. If we think that she got away with drunk driving once in Amherst, why would we think she wouldn’t try to in New Hampshire?

"Instead of grabbing her sentimental values and values in general, Maura is believed to have disappeared with just her backpack and some bottles of alcohol (vodka)."

Doesn’t this speak against the value of the sentimental items with regards to suicide? If they were important, and she did intend to commit suicide, why didn’t she take them? If the book is important, why didn’t she take the book?

"Maura had turned in her lab coat the very day she went missing (even though she had just began clinicals)"

Doesn’t this just mean she didn’t know if she would be returning to school? She didn't turn in her coat to the school or her instructors, she returned it to a classmate. We expect that borrowed items be returned. Wasn't it actually scrubs and not a lab coat, according to the Whitman Express?

"While many thoughts were likely racing through fred's mind as he drove to the white mountains, he began with the phone call to 911 talking about Maura being suicidal and still some 24-48 hours later, he was still talking about Maura being suicidal. In other words, this was not a fleeting thought of his that he just had for one second like it has been described."

Although Fred may have had thoughts racing through his mind, he did not once attempt to call Maura, right? He claimed to have been expecting a call from her the night she went missing, didn’t he? If he was so worried that she was suicidal before he knew about this crash, why didn’t he call her when she failed to call him? Doesn’t this imply that he didn’t think she was suicidal before the crash in New Hampshire? If he thought she was suicidal on the night of the crash, wouldn’t he have been concerned when she failed to call at the designated time?

When a loved one is missing, isn’t it normal behavior to call their phone, hoping against hope that they will answer? Isn’t that what you would do?

To my knowledge, he never tried to call her. Not on the night of the crash, and not the next day, after he found out.

I have certainly never said that you didn't provide anything. When you left, I thanked you for your valuable research, and I still feel this way.

 

[JamesRenner]

Hey Scoops. I like your analysis, even if I think it's a bit short-sighted at times. I wish you'd go back to the beginning and take a fresh look. In the end, you may be right, but I put the possibility at about 10%. For the record, here are my thoughts.

Maura packed up very specific sentimental items to take with her to the mountains while leaving most of her valuables in her dorm.

Not true. She took everything of value.

Maura left in late afternoon (intentionally arriving to the white mountains at dark)

Yes. She had some loose ends in UMass and was looking to party that night with other people in the White Mountains. She was looking for multiple room condos. The other person found a better one and booked it.

Maura had a book with her (that detailed survival attempts in the white mountains and the creative lengths and fight people put up trying to find a way to survive, but eventually led to death anyways).

​Yep. A book about the White Mountains was in her car, as she was driving into the White Mountains.

Maura avoided contact with everyone and had her phone turned off for every second of her trip but one short (two minute span) where she turned her phone on and checked for messages).

Having driven that area, I think the most likely explanation for her phone being turned off was due to lack of reception. Roaming drains a battery fast. I think she turned it back on to check up with another person she was meeting up there.

Maura emptied her bank account

Yes, indeed. She wasn't coming back to UMass.

Maura purchased alcohol and by all known accounts was going to be consuming alcohol alone

The amount of alcohol and the type suggests it was for more than one person.

Maura had just finished a disturbing weekend that included some puzzling choices (with most of the weekend in direct witness from her father).

I don't believe anything about Fred and Kate's official version of that weekend. It's possible the party on Sat. night was essentially a "good bye" party.

Her father urgently called 911 (not to get an update) but to pass along information about Maura when he found out she went missing in the white mountains. This is known fact because the investigating officer said the first words out of fred's mouth (during his 911 call) was that Maura had come to the white mountains to do personal harm to herself.

Fred knew why she was up there and was attempting to muddy the waters in order to paint her as suicidal if they found her before he did.

the rag in the tailpipe, no one knows why she had it there, but the lead investigator brought up suicide attempt as a possibility without giving any other scenarios

Fred gave an explanation for this. He told her to put it there. He knew his fingerprints were on it and it had to be explained.

A stranded Maura refused help when help was really needed

She didn't need help. The other driver was turning around on Rt 16 and coming back for her.

Instead of grabbing her sentimental values and values in general, Maura is believed to have disappeared with just her backpack and some bottles of alcohol (vodka).

She thought she could get back to the car at some point. But then it became a really big deal.

Maura had turned in her lab coat the very day she went missing (even though she had just began clinicals)

Yep. She wasn't coming back to UMass.

While many thoughts were likely racing through fred's mind as he drove to the white mountains, he began with the phone call to 911 talking about Maura being suicidal and still some 24-48 hours later, he was still talking about Maura being suicidal. In other words, this was not a fleeting thought of his that he just had for one second like it has been described.

Fred needed to be in control of the spin.

 

[TAK]

From James Renner's post above :

"I don't believe anything about Fred and Kate's official version of that weekend. It's possible the party on Sat. night was essentially a "good bye" party.

Her father urgently called 911 (not to get an update) but to pass along information about Maura when he found out she went missing in the white mountains.

This is known fact because the investigating officer said the first words out of fred's mouth (during his 911 call) was that Maura had come to the white mountains to do personal harm to herself.

Fred knew why she was up there and was attempting to muddy the waters in order to paint her as suicidal if they found her before he did.


the rag in the tailpipe, no one knows why she had it there, but the lead investigator brought up suicide attempt as a possibility without giving any other scenarios

Fred gave an explanation for this. He told her to put it there. He knew his fingerprints were on it and it had to be explained."

******************************************************

Interesting. Never thought of the party being a going away party for Maura. That would definitely explain why Sara and Kate refuse to talk.

Your statement about Fred trying to muddy the waters sent a chill up my spine. Can you elaborate on this?

Can't wait to read your book, James. Good stuff.


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[gnomony]

He knew his fingerprints were on it and it had to be explained.

Can LE lift fingerprints off a rag? That may be true, but it's a new one on me.

 

[colsmith]

I have been lurking on this thread for at least 5 years and have never seen the hostile environment that I have seen over the past week. FWIW, I would like to see more talk about users' own theories and not so much energy put into trying to discredit/attack someone else's theory! Personally, I'm afraid to post my theories right now for fear of being attacked!

From Websleuths Etiquette & Information:

"If you disagree with another member’s point of view, do so in a mature and civil manner."

"We have zero tolerance for members that create posts with the sole purpose of antagonizing other members."

 

[Lolacat]

Wait a second- Fred KNEW why she was up there?

 

[Gene S.]

I don't believe anything about Fred and Kate's official version of that weekend. It's possible the party on Sat. night was essentially a "good bye" party.

This is probably the most frustrating part of the case for me: Why did Fred visit UMass that weekend and why, prior to his visit, did he haphazardly gather $4,000 in cash to bring with him? Answer those two questions and you get a long way toward figuring out everything else.

Fred obviously knows the answers to both questions and yet has chosen to keep them to himself. If he wants Maura to be found, why lie?

 

[Fireweed]

the most obnoxious aspect of this case is the fact that Fred either knows why Maura came to the hotel that night or he knows the explanation that she gave him. this is a big mystery that need not be.

 

[TAK]

I'd love to know what happened to that $4000 too. Something that has always stuck with me was the part of Fred's story where he said they found a car but he was going to return the following weekend to purchase it. Supposedly his whole reason for visiting Maura that weekend was to buy her a new car. They found a car, and he had $4000 in cash on him. But they didn't buy the car. Why not buy it then? Why did he say they were going to buy it the following weekend? Did they think a used car dealership would still have that car in a week? This makes absolutely NO SENSE.




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[carpanthers]

I'd love to know what happened to that $4000 too. Something that has always stuck with me was the part of Fred's story where he said they found a car but he was going to return the following weekend to purchase it. Supposedly his whole reason for visiting Maura that weekend was to buy her a new car. They found a car, and he had $4000 in cash on him. But they didn't buy the car. Why not buy it then? Why did he say they were going to buy it the following weekend? Did they think a used car dealership would still have that car in a week? This makes absolutely NO SENSE.




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Do you think it is possible that Maura had this money? Do you think Maura trying to rent the condo indicates that she may have had more money than the $280?

 

[TAK]

What reasons would Fred have to withhold information? Some possibilities:

1. He's the reason she disappeared, he knows it, and refuses to admit it. Did he harm her? Kill her? Abuse her (physically, sexually, mentally?) until she'd had enough?

2. He helped her run away for whatever reason, and is playing the "helpless dad" card so he doesn't have to swallow his pride when asked why she cut ties with her family.


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[Fireweed]

surely a two bedroom condo during ski season is at least $200 a night?

 

[carpanthers]

What reasons would Fred have to withhold information? Some possibilities:

1. He's the reason she disappeared, he knows it, and refuses to admit it. Did he harm her? Kill her? Abuse her (physically, sexually, mentally?) until she'd had enough?

2. He helped her run away for whatever reason, and is playing the "helpless dad" card so he doesn't have to swallow his pride when asked why she cut ties with her family.


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If he did help her run away, this would explain:
Why she had the landlady's phone number for the condo
Why she would think she had enough money to rent this condo
Why he was able to tell us she was going to Bartlett (although this could simply be because she was on RT 112)
Why he was able to tell us that her plans changed (doesn't this presuppose that he knew what her plans were?)
Why she had the blank accident reports in the car. Why did she stop and get these accident reports (or print them out) unless she planned on filling them out? If she wasn't planning to come back, why did she get these accident reports in the first place?

 

[TAK]

I do think that's possible, carpanthers. I'm not sure I believe that money was intended to buy Maura a car, or that his visit the weekend prior to her disappearance was for that reason. But I don't know what other reason there would be, unless he was just visiting. I think something happened after she wrecked his car. He dismissed this to reporters saying (I'm paraphrasing) that he was lucky since that was all the trouble she'd ever caused him. Really? She was kicked out of West Point for stealing. She wrecked his brand new car and it was no big deal? Insurance would cover it? Maybe, but he'd have to pay an annual deductible, I'm sure. And I seriously doubt he'd have already met his deductible that early in the calendar year. That was another odd statement from Fred that just seemed "off" from the very beginning.

ETA: It's like he's saying that to convince himself, or to cover up how he may have really reacted to the news of her wrecking his car.


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[carpanthers]

I do think that's possible, carpanthers. I'm not sure I believe that money was intended to buy Maura a car, or that his visit the weekend prior to her disappearance was for that reason. But I don't know what other reason there would be, unless he was just visiting. I think something happened after she wrecked his car. He dismissed this to reporters saying (I'm paraphrasing) that he was lucky since that was all the trouble she'd ever caused him. Really? She was kicked out of West Point for stealing. She wrecked his brand new car and it was no big deal? Insurance would cover it? Maybe, but he'd have to pay an annual deductible, I'm sure. And I seriously doubt he'd have already met his deductible that early in the calendar year. That was another odd statement from Fred that just seemed "off" from the very beginning.

ETA: It's like he's saying that to convince himself, or to cover up how he may have really reacted to the news of her wrecking his car.


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You make excellent points. I also am not sure that I believe the money was for a car; but I also do not know of another reason that he would visit her. Lately I have been thinking that, like you said, he may have just gone to visit her. Sometimes parents visit their children at college. They are close, they go hiking together. Why wouldn't he visit her? I think we only think that there must be a reason because Fred Murray told us that there is, in fact, a reason.

And you nailed it about Fred's comments about being lucky that this was the worst trouble she had ever caused him. This is an odd statement.

 

[TAK]

He did seem awfully sure she was going to Bartlett. I think that was on the Disappeared episode. How could he be sure unless he already knew?

Going back to what you mentioned upthread, carpanthers. If he was so convinced she was suicidal, then why did he leave Amherst? Why not get her some help? Why didn't he call her when he never heard from her Monday night, as planned? Especially if she was suicidal? Where was he Monday night? He was supposedly working in CT on Tuesday, but where was he on Monday? Or, this is more of a stretch but consider - if he was coming back the following weekend to buy that car, why wouldn't he just fill out the forms then? It was HIS car, HIS insurance policy. Why would Maura have to fill these out? Also, the few times I've been in an accident, I've never had to fill out forms. There is a police report, and then you call your insurance company who in turn sends an adjuster to appraise the damage and/or determine if the car will be totaled. No handwritten forms involved at all. Maybe it's different in Massachussetts, I don't know.


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[TAK]

I went to college two hours away from home, and my parents visited a couple of times. But they never got a hotel room nearby, they'd just drive home. And the semester had just started two weeks earlier. She would have just seen him over winter break, don't you think? Kind of soon for a visit from dad. But that's just me applying my personal take on things. Amherst didn't seem that far from Hanson, but since they all drank at dinner maybe he wasn't able to drive home. Or maybe he was planning to head to CT for work the following morning.


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[carpanthers]

He did seem awfully sure she was going to Bartlett. I think that was on the Disappeared episode. How could he be sure unless he already knew?

Going back to what you mentioned upthread, carpanthers. If he was so convinced she was suicidal, then why did he leave Amherst? Why not get her some help? Why didn't he call her when he never heard from her Monday night, as planned? Especially if she was suicidal? Where was he Monday night? He was supposedly working in CT on Tuesday, but where was he on Monday? Or, this is more of a stretch but consider - if he was coming back the following weekend to buy that car, why wouldn't he just fill out the forms then? It was HIS car, HIS insurance policy. Why would Maura have to fill these out? Also, the few times I've been in an accident, I've never had to fill out forms. There is a police report, and then you call your insurance company who in turn sends an adjuster to appraise the damage and/or determine if the car will be totaled. No handwritten forms involved at all. Maybe it's different in Massachussetts, I don't know.


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This, to me, suggests that he was not worried about her state of mind before the New Hampshire crash. If Maura was planning on calling Fred on Monday night, and she didn't, we would expect Fred Murray to be concerned, especially if he thought that she might do herself harm. Of course, Fred could be lying about expecting this phone call.

But you have also raised a good question in wondering why he would leave Amherst at all. I think this also suggests that he was not concerned about her state of mind before this crash.

As far as the insurance forms in Massachusetts, I can tell you at least that you do not always have to fill out an accident report. Nobody in my family has ever had to fill one out. There may be circumstances in which you have to fill out your own accident forms, but I have never encountered one.