NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #12

[Fireweed]

What I have been confident about over the years, is that I have done enough research to understand what is really a fact, what has been introduced as a fact, but not proven to be so, and what has been introduced that has simply been false.

Going back to this. I am not picking on you, but since this is not the first time you have said something in this vein, could you perhaps give us an example? Give an example of something that is really fact, and something that has been taken as fact but that you know is false.

 

[scoops]

So I do not think that the Vasi thing can be totally ruled out, but seriously you have seem so convinced of it, that I thought for sure that you knew something we did not. Scoops, no one can prove a negative. I mean, of course plenty of things cannot be ruled out, but is that really good evidence?

And I think plenty of people still hold the suicide theory as plausible. I know I do. My issue is that you have been very adamant about it, to the point that I just had to wonder how that could be.

Can we just sort of ignore Renner for the time-being? I fully intend on having a very detailed and in-depth discussion when his book is published, but it seem obvious that for now at least, he is keeping a lot of what he knows secret so that people buy his book.



Again, I do not want to beat a dead horse here, but you have been saying stuff like this for years. I guess what I want to know is what your research is. Who did you talk to? When? What did they say? Where did you go? When? What was the outcome? What were your methods? I just feel like you are lying about this. You have talked about all your research, but then on the numerous occasions that I have asked you to produce, you never do. So I must think that this is just something you are making up to make your posts sound more serious and credible than they actually are. I think you have been quite good at convincing many posters that come here that your phantom research is something real that backs up your suicide theory with a lot of conviction, but you will not provide us with this research that you constantly talk about. Why is that?

Really scoops, just come out there with it. Something like, "On Monday, July 18, 2009, I went to Umass and interview the security supervisor on duty and she said...." That is all. Just tell us your method and the information that you got.

How can I give a specific answer to you about a case I have researched for five or six years.

I was a professional journalist. My job was research, interview, factually tell a story, etc. I did that for 14 years total (1 year at my college newspaper).

I have written over 7,000 stories (all involved sorting out facts, researching, interviewing, getting quotes down accurately and in proper context etc.)

On this case, I have interviewed Maura's supervisor and Maribeth Conway (the journalist who wrote the Maura is Missing five part series), while I was working on several more interviews to come, before I decided to take a break from it.

I had at one time in my house three files of case related information (old news stories, sources, factual pieces of documents to include things like a dorm monitor application circa 2004 from UMASS which clearly lists the hours that a dorm monitor works and their repsponsiblities (that alone was discusses on boards and no one could ever get that basic fact down about what hours Maura worked that Thursday night).

I had several things like the UMASS dorm monitor application. I had a UMASS police code sheet that I got my hands on because Maura's accident report from her wreck on campus had all these numbers associated with it and I wanted to make sure I fully knew what every number stood for.

This is the kind of research I did. I have news articles that were scrubbed from the public because something controversial was said in it. I got my hands on those as well after learning about them doing research.

Again, I developed a suicide theory as I gathered information, became suspicious of certain quotes and what I felt like was spin. When I was researching, I could've cared less what theory I would've came to believe and that is the honest truth.

The main thing that was motivating me and to spend my free time working out all the information with this case, was not a theory. I wanted to be less confused about a case I wanted to know inside and out.

What I didn't do was come up with a theory right from the start and then just research that theory until I found enough information to support it. I am completely opposite of that. I want to research and let that research give me an answer. And that is what I guess you can say I have a problem with on this board.

It seems like just randomly picking a theory and trying to make up ideas to fit that theory is how some people want to work.

And I would rather work the opposite way. Let's go off of the very basics and not be afraid to see where it takes us.

 

[scoops]

Going back to this. I am not picking on you, but since this is not the first time you have said something in this vein, could you perhaps give us an example? Give an example of something that is really fact, and something that has been taken as fact but that you know is false.

the red truck.

There was no red truck on Bradley hill rd. the night Maura went missing (well not how its been stated).

yes there was a resident of the area who encountered a truck as she was walking, that is not what I am talking about.

Somehow it became fact that a red truck was spotted on Bradley Hill Rd., parked on the side of the road and boy did people run with that.

What I found to be true is that someone on another board completely made that up and that person was called out on that.


the phone call that upset Maura.

It was believable because afterall, it was police who stated to the public that they believed a phone call between Maura and her sister is what led to Maura being upset.

But upon extensive research, I found out that police only came to that conclusion by a witness statement given from Maura's supervisor in which the supervisor mentioned that when she asked Maura what was wrong that night, Maura said "my sister"

THis in no way proves that the 10:10 phone call was what upset Maura.

there are a lot more instances. A lot of things that have been reported ever so slightly differently that have caused confusion over the years (may be as simple as the wrong word chosen by a reporter) that has led to false facts.

Maybe one day I will try and put together a list, but it would be very long and I no longer have all that stuff neatly highlighted and organized like I once had.

 

[Fireweed]

the red truck.

There was no red truck on Bradley hill rd. the night Maura went missing (well not how its been stated).

yes there was a resident of the area who encountered a truck as she was walking, that is not what I am talking about.

Somehow it became fact that a red truck was spotted on Bradley Hill Rd., parked on the side of the road and boy did people run with that.

What I found to be true is that someone on another board completely made that up and that person was called out on that.

So you are saying that the source of the red truck was just a random post on a message board?

 

[carpanthers]

How can I give a specific answer to you about a case I have researched for five or six years.

You can definitely give us specific answers. I would like to hear more about the book rumor. Who is it that told you that Maura was obsessed with the book?

Nobody is randomly picking theories and trying to make up ideas. We're just suggesting theories and posing questions. I am asking questions because these are the questions that I have. I think all the time about the dog, the rag, the credit card numbers, the end of add/drop. Lots of people have been reading about and thinking about this case for years. Even if some people haven't, I think people who know the least about this case might have some of the most valuable opinions, because they can offer us a fresh perspective.

 

[Fireweed]

Regarding Maura's trip in the middle of the night to his hotel. Is it possible that she knew he was passed out drunk at that point, and her intention was to go there and try and take the $4,000 cash without him noticing?

 

[scoops]

yes exactly.

 

[scoops]

You can definitely give us specific answers. I would like to hear more about the book rumor. Who is it that told you that Maura was obsessed with the book?

Nobody is randomly picking theories and trying to make up ideas. We're just suggesting theories and posing questions. I am asking questions because these are the questions that I have. I think all the time about the dog, the rag, the credit card numbers, the end of add/drop. Lots of people have been reading about and thinking about this case for years. Even if some people haven't, I think people who know the least about this case might have some of the most valuable opinions, because they can offer us a fresh perspective.

And that is also the problem.

For the newer people, (I once was one of them) I think it's important that they have factual information to work off of and not be led down a bunch of rabbit holes or sent on goose chases. That is why I don't just like throwing around ideas for the sake of it.

 

[carpanthers]

the red truck.

There was no red truck on Bradley hill rd. the night Maura went missing (well not how its been stated).

yes there was a resident of the area who encountered a truck as she was walking, that is not what I am talking about.

Somehow it became fact that a red truck was spotted on Bradley Hill Rd., parked on the side of the road and boy did people run with that.

What I found to be true is that someone on another board completely made that up and that person was called out on that.


the phone call that upset Maura.

It was believable because afterall, it was police who stated to the public that they believed a phone call between Maura and her sister is what led to Maura being upset.

But upon extensive research, I found out that police only came to that conclusion by a witness statement given from Maura's supervisor in which the supervisor mentioned that when she asked Maura what was wrong that night, Maura said "my sister"

THis in no way proves that the 10:10 phone call was what upset Maura.

there are a lot more instances. A lot of things that have been reported ever so slightly differently that have caused confusion over the years (may be as simple as the wrong word chosen by a reporter) that has led to false facts.

Maybe one day I will try and put together a list, but it would be very long and I no longer have all that stuff neatly highlighted and organized like I once had.

This is how I stated it:

"At least one person also reported, to my recollection, seeing a red truck parked on Bradley Hill Rd. where a man may have been in the woods.

Personally, I am not yet convinced of the tandem driver. But if Renner is right, we have a video of Kathleen and her ex-husband standing in front of a red truck, just a few days after Maura went missing.

Here is the video:

http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/vid...om=en-us_video

ETA Here is the link to Renner's blog post discussing the red truck. If you scroll through the comments, some attribute the red truck story to a local witness R.O. I don't know how much weight to give any of these comments.

http://mauramurray.blogspot.com/2012/03/red-truck.html"

Has somebody on here represented the red truck as a fact?

 

[carpanthers]

You like to make assumptions without much actual work involved in concluding them.

That is the exact kind of thing I have avoided with this case. I have put in the time sort of speak.

I have already answered your question by the way.

I have stated that I DON'T recall exactly who or in the proper context of how I came to believe that Maura was obessessed with that book. that was a little nugget I kept to myself when I was working through the suicide theory. I had never shared it before on this board or anywhere else because I did not have it down 100 percent where I heard it from. I let that cat out of the bag only when you all were demanding all the details about how I developed a suicide theory. even when I did mention it, I stated that I still wasn't sure where exactly it came from. (I have an idea) but that is not good enough to state as fact.

"Very condescending answer James. Nice. If you don’t think that the book was anything more than a white mountains guide, then you are choosing to completely ignore the many mentions (by family members whether they meant to or not) that the particular book held special meaning to Maura."

If Renner is ignoring the mentions, that means he knows about them. Does Renner know about these mentions?

I know you say you don't remember exactly who made these comment or the proper context, but you said they came from her family members. Did you interview her family members?

 

[scoops]

Yes, that is a good question. You have said that Renner is wrong and you are right about the family member's mentioning the book, so naturally you must have a context for this. Who mentioned it? When? Where is the source? Is it a paper, or is it from an interview you did? Oh, but you don't know for sure? But then why did you denigrate Renner on this point? You sure sounded confident.

It's in every article that the family talks about this book.

So If I go and pull a quote about this very specific thing and prove you wrong on this, that would be good enough right to show that I am not just making it up.

But you know if I did that, you would just move on to some other thing to try and catch me with.

I am not playing these inmature games with you.

 

[carpanthers]

It's in every article that the family talks about this book.

So If I go and pull a quote about this very specific thing and prove you wrong on this, that would be good enough right to show that I am not just making it up.

But you know if I did that, you would just move on to some other thing to try and catch me with.

I am not playing these inmature games with you.

Nobody's trying to catch you. We were having a perfectly nice conversation before you wanted to angrily prove Renner wrong.

I believe you that her family may have said these things. But I have only heard journalists analyze the book through their own perspectives, I don't think I have ever seen an article where her family is quoted. Do you have one?

 

[Ricochet]

I have stated that I DON'T recall exactly who or in the proper context of how I came to believe that Maura was obessessed with that book. that was a little nugget I kept to myself when I was working through the suicide theory. I had never shared it before on this board or anywhere else because I did not have it down 100 percent where I heard it from. I let that cat out of the bag only when you all were demanding all the details about how I developed a suicide theory. even when I did mention it, I stated that I still wasn't sure where exactly it came from. (I have an idea) but that is not good enough to state as fact.

Is it possible this could of came from Maribeth Conway?

What was your perception of her? She seems to be very pro Fred.

 

[carpanthers]

I have now had several posters privately email me and tell me that they don't like the direction that fireweed and carpanthers had been going on this board.

So I tell everyone this.

I will let these two go at it, with all their brilliant theories.

I will keep my theory out of any discussion that goes on, but I will be watching for when things are not presented accurately and I will call them out with proof.

that will be (for the future) how I will contribute to this message board and case

I assume this is more information that you have but are not willing to share?

Anyway, that sounds great to me. I don't mind being corrected, I make mistakes like anybody else. So if you see one, I would love it if you or anyone else would correct me so that we can have the correct information.

 

[scoops]

Is it possible this could of came from Maribeth Conway?

What was your perception of her? She seems to be very pro Fred.

She is very Pro-Fred.

She has a lot of sympathy for the Murray family, but my impression of her is that she really doesn't follow the case that much anymore. She is very busy. For the record, she believes Maura may have had too much to drink and happened to choose the wrong person to get a ride from.

And no, I know for a fact it didn't come from her.

 

[carpanthers]

I think what makes this case difficult is whatever theory is put out there an equally convincing argument can be made for a different theory. Also, Maura made a lot of illogical decisions which further complicates things. Fred in his statement to the police stated he came down over the weekend to look at cars with Maura, because hers was unreliable (yet she uses the unreliable car to leave UMass). He mentioned going to a dealership in Northampton, and I thought it was odd that no dealer ever came forward, and then in a previous post by Fireweed they expanded upon that by saying no one from the party ever came forward. It's very odd that no car dealer, mechanic, or anyone at this party can vouch for Maura's state of mind or just vouch for Maura being present. Also the fact that some of these people have no close ties to Maura would make it easier for them to come forward. They'd have nothing to lose since their not friends with her.

She gave notice to people at UMass and I don't think it matters whether it was professors or the nursing director. What's relevant is she emailed someone in authority. My understanding of the nursing program is that it had strict attendance guidelines, and a death in the family would be a valid reason for her to miss classes or clinicals and would support her intentions to return to UMass. However equally valid arguments could be made she was leaving to start a new life or going away to commit suicide and sending the email about a death in the family wouldn't raise suspicions about her absence. I find the idea of her leaving to start a new life a bit of a stretch.

I believe she was drinking the night she left. IF her intent was to just getaway for a few days, and then return to UMass, she'd have a motive to flee the scene. I suppose that motive would be applicable if she was going away to commit suicide or start a new life. She had a hearing on December 16, 2003 regarding the improper use of a credit card, she was found responsible, and if she went 3 months (March 16, 2004) trouble free the charges would be dismissed. IF she had stayed at the scene, and IF she had been drinking she'd have to deal with the consequences of a DUI and then deal with the consequences relating to the improper use of a credit card, and then be expelled from UMass. I believe she went in the forest and ultimately died from exposure. It's big, it's dark, and it'd be easy to become disoriented. They used dogs, but different breeds of dogs follow scents in different ways; some by air, and some by ground.

That's my theory, but if I wanted I could poke holes in it just like all the other theories out there.

I think you are right about the potential consequences of the crash. I think it is a real possibility that she died of exposure. I'd like to hear more on this if you have some perspectives you would like to offer. U2forever pointed out to me the other day that Maura was probably wet with the red liquid when she left the scene, and I think being wet could increase her chances of exposure. I don't think her clothes were particularly well suited to the outdoors. Maura was wearing a dark coat and jeans according to the Charley Project. I think jeans are a very bad choice in snowy weather, because they are made of cotton which holds a lot of moisture. When jeans get wet, the water climbs up the fabric, and you can become cold very quickly. The river runs right next to this road, and sometimes I consider the possibility that Maura fell into this river somewhere near the scene, and that is perhaps why she cannot be located. I think if the river were frozen and covered with snow, it may have looked like a path or a clearing. Do you think Maura could have fallen through the ice?

Here is a video of the ice breaking on the Wild Ammonoosuc, if you want to see the river:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsS5b5qOjFQ

I am also glad to have your opinion on the dog. Do you have any idea whether the dog in Maura's case followed scents by air or by ground? Maybe we could look into this. Do you think that the smell could have been dispersed by traffic at the intersection, particularly if more people were turning left onto 112 (westbound) or right (eastbound)? Do you have an opinion about which type of dog would be the better one? Does anybody? I don't have an opinion on this issue and I would love to hear from anybody who does.

 

[carpanthers]

Renner regarding the dog:

Renner says that he has an LE source who says it is possible that the dog picked up the scent of the officer instead of the scent of Maura. This sounds like a reasonable possibility. Does anybody have an opinion about whether the gloves would have been a good source of Maura's scent? Fred Murray said that the gloves were a Christmas gift that Maura wore infrequently. The most recent Christmas? This would be approximately 46 days before Maura goes missing. A lot of people who live in cold climates wear gloves every time they drive, because the steering wheel is cold in the winter. Would this have been enough occasions to make Maura's gloves a good reference item? (thanks to TAK for teaching me this term). If she had the gloves in the car, she either packed them or she kept them in her car. If she kept these gloves in the car, does this make it more likely that these were the gloves she wore while driving? What does it mean if she packed them? If we believe that her car wasn't functioning, would this make her wear the gloves less often?

Sometimes I tend to think that the dog was right at least about the direction Maura went, because at the press conference after the ground search ended on 2/20/04 officers said they performed a very thorough search for Maura around the crash site. As I was reminded recently on this thread, the snow was knee deep. I never heard any mention of footprints in the woods and I think that they found none, because I think those footprints would have likely led:

A. To Maura
B. To some other place without snow
Or
C. Back to the road

I think if they found prints that led back to the road, or to any other place, investigators would have likely told us this information so that they could try to find any witnesses who saw her or anybody else near this point.

If there were no footprints in the woods, I think she was probably walking on the road for however long she was in the immediate area of the crash site. Fred was upset that officers searched for her westbound down 112, but allegedly did not search eastbound. So if she were on the road, I think officers would have encountered her if she had gone westbound. I tend to think that she therefore went eastbound, and remained on the road either for a significant distance beyond the crash site or until she disappeared.

So I guess the dog and I agree on the direction, but I am not sure if either of us is right.

I would very much like to hear any opinion about the seeming lack of footprints. Do you think this means Maura stayed on the road? If she stayed on the road, do you think this means the police would have encountered her if she had gone westbound? Do you think this means she went eastbound? If she did go eastbound and the dog was right about this, does this make the dog more credible?

Please let me know if you have a reason to think Maura may have gone westbound, because I would definitely like to consider any possibilities that may be suggested by that idea. I don't think that anybody owes me an answer to these questions, these are just the questions I am asking myself, and I think other people may have answers or opinions I have not yet considered.

Here is Renner's post about the dog:

http://mauramurray.blogspot.com/2013/06/law-enforcement-source-dog-track-in.html

Here is the Concord Monitor article where Fred discusses the gloves:

http://www.concordmonitor.com/news/...light-gone-a-father-searches-for-his-daughter

 

[scoops]

Originally Posted by Fireweed:
“Yes, that is a good question. You have said that Renner is wrong and you are right about the family member's mentioning the book, so naturally you must have a context for this. Who mentioned it? When? Where is the source? Is it a paper, or is it from an interview you did? Oh, but you don't know for sure? But then why did you denigrate Renner on this point? You sure sounded confident.”

I will answer this one, but not for posters such as Fireweed and carpanthers who only want to sit back and cherry-pick other posters statements to try and catch them in a slip up.

FYI: the actual people who want to learn about the case:

I was called out last night on a statement I had made, criticizing James Renner for what I felt was a very condescending answer he provided (I could be wrong, he may have just been trying to give a simplified answer as possible).

I was lambasted by both Fireweed and Carpanthers, because they were certain I was just making things up.
Here is the entire issue broken down.

My original statement of a possible suicide indicator that I shared on this message board:
Maura had a book with her (that detailed survival attempts in the white mountains and the creative lengths and fight people put up trying to find a way to survive, but eventually led to death anyways).
James Renner’s response

JR: Yep. A book about the White Mountains was in her car, as she was driving into the White Mountains.

WHAT I SAID as a reply ----
SCOOPS: Very condescending answer James. Nice. If you don’t think that the book was anything more than a white mountains guide, then you are choosing to completely ignore the many mentions (by family members whether they meant to or not) that the particular book held special meaning to Maura.

Now the Proof:
This is just one example which took me a only a couple of minutes to find
New Hampshire Sunday News
Monday Oct 29, 2007
Rausch said police told the family the book had a photo of Maura's younger brother as a "bookmark" at a chapter entitled "A Question of Life or Death."
But even that is a red herring, Rausch believes, because it was Maura's favorite and she often re-read it, having brought it once on a visit to the Rausch home."While it's all true stories about people hiking and either dying or surviving a snow storm, it's also a survivor's manual more than about suicide," Rausch said.

So is this a book that held special meaning to Maura like I stated
Or is this just a book about the white mountains that Maura had as she just happened to be entering the white mountains like James put it?

In another instance, Sharon Rausch has also not only stated that the book was Maura’s favorite but she quoted Maura as saying the White Mountains were her “favorite place on earth.” --- that was quoted in a Caldonian Record article from July of 2004.

I have found that comment to be very resonating by Sharon Rausch that she quotes Maura as saying the white mountains just wasn’t a favorite vacation spot or hiking spot, but rather that it was her favorite place on earth.

So for me, it was pretty natural to conclude that Maura heading into the white mountains IS where she intended to go all along. No secret trip off to Canada etc….

 

[carpanthers]

Originally Posted by Fireweed:
“Yes, that is a good question. You have said that Renner is wrong and you are right about the family member's mentioning the book, so naturally you must have a context for this. Who mentioned it? When? Where is the source? Is it a paper, or is it from an interview you did? Oh, but you don't know for sure? But then why did you denigrate Renner on this point? You sure sounded confident.”

I will answer this one, but not for posters such as Fireweed and carpanthers who only want to sit back and cherry-pick other posters statements to try and catch them in a slip up.

FYI: the actual people who want to learn about the case:

I was called out last night on a statement I had made, criticizing James Renner for what I felt was a very condescending answer he provided (I could be wrong, he may have just been trying to give a simplified answer as possible).

I was lambasted by both Fireweed and Carpanthers, because they were certain I was just making things up.
Here is the entire issue broken down.

My original statement of a possible suicide indicator that I shared on this message board:
Maura had a book with her (that detailed survival attempts in the white mountains and the creative lengths and fight people put up trying to find a way to survive, but eventually led to death anyways).
James Renner’s response

JR: Yep. A book about the White Mountains was in her car, as she was driving into the White Mountains.

WHAT I SAID as a reply ----
SCOOPS: Very condescending answer James. Nice. If you don’t think that the book was anything more than a white mountains guide, then you are choosing to completely ignore the many mentions (by family members whether they meant to or not) that the particular book held special meaning to Maura.

Now the Proof:
This is just one example which took me a only a couple of minutes to find
New Hampshire Sunday News
Monday Oct 29, 2007
Rausch said police told the family the book had a photo of Maura's younger brother as a "bookmark" at a chapter entitled "A Question of Life or Death."
But even that is a red herring, Rausch believes, because it was Maura's favorite and she often re-read it, having brought it once on a visit to the Rausch home."While it's all true stories about people hiking and either dying or surviving a snow storm, it's also a survivor's manual more than about suicide," Rausch said.

So is this a book that held special meaning to Maura like I stated
Or is this just a book about the white mountains that Maura had as she just happened to be entering the white mountains like James put it?

In another instance, Sharon Rausch has also not only stated that the book was Maura’s favorite but she quoted Maura as saying the White Mountains were her “favorite place on earth.” --- that was quoted in a Caldonian Record article from July of 2004.

I have found that comment to be very resonating by Sharon Rausch that she quotes Maura as saying the white mountains just wasn’t a favorite vacation spot or hiking spot, but rather that it was her favorite place on earth.

So for me, it was pretty natural to conclude that Maura heading into the white mountains IS where she intended to go all along. No secret trip off to Canada etc….

But you think Sharon Rausch is lying about Maura and Billy being happy? Why do we take her word for this?

ETA Sharon tells us that the book is Maura's favorite to demonstrate that it is a red herring, like she said.

 

[Curiosum]

I realize that James Renner's motivation for his blog, at least at this point, is just to increase interest in the case in hopes that this will inspire folks to buy his latest book (purportedly due out next month). Even when I read his blog through this lens, I am a bit baffled at some of the leaps he makes, and the way he seems to do his research by just throwing out accusations willy nilly in hopes that someone will take pity on him and enlighten him (or perhaps that someone will get angry enough with him that they will toss him a few informational bones due to anger).

I have to say that if he was interacting with me in the ways that he has reported interacting with SA and KM, I certainly wouldn't speak with him. Depending on the true time frame and his persistence I might have considered contacting my local law enforcement about filing harassment or stalking charges.

It also wouldn't surprise me if SA and/or KM have been more forthcoming with law enforcement than Renner believes. Law enforcement often minimizes witness's contributions so as not to compromise witness safety and/or their investigation.