NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #13

[sthrngrl76]

THere was mention of 3 guys that worked at a ski resort nearby. Were they ever questioned?

 

[Pettibon Junction]

I don't think it has been helpful at all to downplay the stuff that was going on in Maura's life that led her to leave UMASS. Painting her as the all american girl who just needed a break from a busy schedule, has been so far removed from reality to what was going on that of course its going to lead to all kinds of wild speculation, accusations, conspiracies. because the premise has been built on complete and utter bull crap. Maura had issues. Pretty big ones at the time she vanished. These weren't new issues or things that happened over a span of a couple days either and folks that know maura know all of this.

I agree with that, Clint, honestly I do, but you also have to understand the family dynamics at play. There's ALWAYS that tendency to eulogize people in positive terms -
not for the sake of the dead/missing, but for those who have survived. And Fred probably lives with a lot of guilt over how hard he drove Maura and some of the things he no doubt said to hurt her when he was angry.

But whatever drove her to want to leave UMass (and we knew pretty early on what those things were thanks to John Healy), they didn't cause her to crash her car on Route 112 and they had nothing to do with whatever happened next. She didn't commit suicide in the wilderness (though given her mental state, she may have romanticized the notion), she isn't alive in Canada with her illegitimate child, the Haverhill police didn't kill her and then fire John Smith because he was the Man Who Knew Too Much and Billy Rausch didn't track her to some unheated outing cabin four days after the fact. These theories are, in large part, fantasies projected by personalities and it tells us more about them that it does about Maura.

Respectfully (and I mean that, because you've done a lot of great legwork on this case and we sincerely owe you for it), at this point, neither you nor her family know much more than the rest of us do. By now, there are only two scenarios left that make any sense: either she slipped down an embankment and into the river (which I rate fairly low, since something SHOULD have turned up by now if that were the case - some of DB Cooper's stolen cash was found in a river, and that was made out of paper), or somebody in a vehicle wound up harming her.

Personally, I lean toward scenario two. A lone woman running down a lonely road in a state with a VERY low clearance rate for murders and in an area where a lot of sketchy guys were known to either reside or pass through is victimology 101. So I'm glad that scenario is finally getting some attention again after all the idiotic nonsense that's clouded this case for years. What needs to happen is that suspects need to be developed, witnesses re-interviewed, and people like James Renner and John Smith left out in the cold while the grown-ups in the room (and again, I include you among them Clint, but you've got a bit of tunnel vision which may require Lasik) do the REAL work of actually advocating for Maura Murray and solving this damn case for good.

 

[ghost story]

Can someone point me to pictures of the accident site and general area on the day of or day after? I'd also like if know if there are any maps of the areas previously searched.

TIA

 

[MaggieSky]

I agree with that, Clint, honestly I do, but you also have to understand the family dynamics at play. There's ALWAYS that tendency to eulogize people in positive terms -
not for the sake of the dead/missing, but for those who have survived. And Fred probably lives with a lot of guilt over how hard he drove Maura and some of the things he no doubt said to hurt her when he was angry.

But whatever drove her to want to leave UMass (and we knew pretty early on what those things were thanks to John Healy), they didn't cause her to crash her car on Route 112 and they had nothing to do with whatever happened next. She didn't commit suicide in the wilderness (though given her mental state, she may have romanticized the notion), she isn't alive in Canada with her illegitimate child, the Haverhill police didn't kill her and then fire John Smith because he was the Man Who Knew Too Much and Billy Rausch didn't track her to some unheated outing cabin four days after the fact. These theories are, in large part, fantasies projected by personalities and it tells us more about them that it does about Maura.

Respectfully (and I mean that, because you've done a lot of great legwork on this case and we sincerely owe you for it), at this point, neither you nor her family know much more than the rest of us do. By now, there are only two scenarios left that make any sense: either she slipped down an embankment and into the river (which I rate fairly low, since something SHOULD have turned up by now if that were the case - some of DB Cooper's stolen cash was found in a river, and that was made out of paper), or somebody in a vehicle wound up harming her.

Personally, I lean toward scenario two. A lone woman running down a lonely road in a state with a VERY low clearance rate for murders and in an area where a lot of sketchy guys were known to either reside or pass through is victimology 101. So I'm glad that scenario is finally getting some attention again after all the idiotic nonsense that's clouded this case for years. What needs to happen is that suspects need to be developed, witnesses re-interviewed, and people like James Renner and John Smith left out in the cold while the grown-ups in the room (and again, I include you among them Clint, but you've got a bit of tunnel vision which may require Lasik) do the REAL work of actually advocating for Maura Murray and solving this damn case for good.

I agree with all of this 100%
For what it's worth, I do believe she was picked up not far from the accident scene by someone that harmed her.
Also that whatever was going on with her life prior to that had nothing to do with her disappearance.
And someone knows something and should get that important information to the proper authorities.
This is a solvable case.
IMO.

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[scoops]

I agree with that, Clint, honestly I do, but you also have to understand the family dynamics at play. There's ALWAYS that tendency to eulogize people in positive terms -
not for the sake of the dead/missing, but for those who have survived. And Fred probably lives with a lot of guilt over how hard he drove Maura and some of the things he no doubt said to hurt her when he was angry.

But whatever drove her to want to leave UMass (and we knew pretty early on what those things were thanks to John Healy), they didn't cause her to crash her car on Route 112 and they had nothing to do with whatever happened next. She didn't commit suicide in the wilderness (though given her mental state, she may have romanticized the notion), she isn't alive in Canada with her illegitimate child, the Haverhill police didn't kill her and then fire John Smith because he was the Man Who Knew Too Much and Billy Rausch didn't track her to some unheated outing cabin four days after the fact. These theories are, in large part, fantasies projected by personalities and it tells us more about them that it does about Maura.

Respectfully (and I mean that, because you've done a lot of great legwork on this case and we sincerely owe you for it), at this point, neither you nor her family know much more than the rest of us do. By now, there are only two scenarios left that make any sense: either she slipped down an embankment and into the river (which I rate fairly low, since something SHOULD have turned up by now if that were the case - some of DB Cooper's stolen cash was found in a river, and that was made out of paper), or somebody in a vehicle wound up harming her.

Personally, I lean toward scenario two. A lone woman running down a lonely road in a state with a VERY low clearance rate for murders and in an area where a lot of sketchy guys were known to either reside or pass through is victimology 101. So I'm glad that scenario is finally getting some attention again after all the idiotic nonsense that's clouded this case for years. What needs to happen is that suspects need to be developed, witnesses re-interviewed, and people like James Renner and John Smith left out in the cold while the grown-ups in the room (and again, I include you among them Clint, but you've got a bit of tunnel vision which may require Lasik) do the REAL work of actually advocating for Maura Murray and solving this damn case for good.

Thank You very much. That is the most complete answer I have ever gotten on this case. And I agree, the events that led to Maura ending up in New Hampshire are separate from the events that took place after the accident. I think her intoxication level is important to know (not to make judgements about or bring out publicly to victim-shame), but to determine what Maura's next move was after leaving the scene. I have never met Maura, don't know a whole lot about her, but I bet she is very strong-willed.

 

[MzOpinion8d]

Thank You very much. That is the most complete answer I have ever gotten on this case. And I agree, the events that led to Maura ending up in New Hampshire are separate from the events that took place after the accident. I think her intoxication level is important to know (not to make judgements about or bring out publicly to victim-shame), but to determine what Maura's next move was after leaving the scene. I have never met Maura, don't know a whole lot about her, but I bet she is very strong-willed.

This is awful of me to say, but I don’t even have the least bit of curiosity about what happened to her. She was a poster child for Bad Choices. Her instinct was to run from problems rather than face them. I think in the end she made one last Bad Choice and that’s that.

 

[Claireishere]

This is awful of me to say, but I don’t even have the least bit of curiosity about what happened to her. She was a poster child for Bad Choices. Her instinct was to run from problems rather than face them. I think in the end she made one last Bad Choice and that’s that.

While I understand your view point I respectfully disagree. Finding a missing person that has been gone this long means more than likely she is dead. Why would the dead care if they are found or not? Finding a missing person is more for the family. Her parents didn’t make the choices and they deserve to find their child.


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[Pettibon Junction]

Thank You very much. That is the most complete answer I have ever gotten on this case. And I agree, the events that led to Maura ending up in New Hampshire are separate from the events that took place after the accident. I think her intoxication level is important to know (not to make judgements about or bring out publicly to victim-shame), but to determine what Maura's next move was after leaving the scene. I have never met Maura, don't know a whole lot about her, but I bet she is very strong-willed.

You're very welcome, Clint.

As far as the intoxication level goes, I don't think it matters too much. It's pretty clear that she was drinking but whether she was legally intoxicated wouldn't matter, as she had already violated open container laws and would have been cited for that, if not the crash itself. That's why she ran.

 

[MaggieSky]

This is awful of me to say, but I don’t even have the least bit of curiosity about what happened to her. She was a poster child for Bad Choices. Her instinct was to run from problems rather than face them. I think in the end she made one last Bad Choice and that’s that.

Every missing person deserves to be found no matter what. I will take up for Maura on this.
I think, although should not be continued to be talked about, her choices and actions have been misunderstood.

You must not know any college kids/ young adults. I know several and they chronically make poor choices and have legal and social problems, and these are good kids from good families. I also think they will grow up to be successful but the college environment is hard for some kids. It's too easy to "party" and forget your responsibilities. Sometimes just turns into a downward spiral....but can be controlled.

Of course I know some kids thrive in that environment but it's not unusual to see many struggle.

I know that most adults age 21 have matured their executive functioning skills, but not all. That is still a young age to be making adult decisions, many continue to be very impulsive. I don't see it as her running from her problems, I see it as her trying to manage them on her own. I mean yes buying alcohol and taking a road trip after being in trouble for wrecking your dad's car sounds crazy. I can't say I wouldn't do something that dumb at that age. Of course I may be way off, I just haven't seen many people defending her. We are so quick to judge aren't we?



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[Claireishere]

Every missing person deserves to be found no matter what. I will take up for Maura on this.
I think, although should not be continued to be talked about, her choices and actions have been misunderstood.

You must not know any college kids/ young adults. I know several and they chronically make poor choices and have legal and social problems, and these are good kids from good families. I also think they will grow up to be successful but the college environment is hard for some kids. It's too easy to "party" and forget your responsibilities. Sometimes just turns into a downward spiral....but can be controlled.

Of course I know some kids thrive in that environment but it's not unusual to see many struggle.

I know that most adults age 21 have matured their executive functioning skills, but not all. That is still a young age to be making adult decisions, many continue to be very impulsive. I don't see it as her running from her problems, I see it as her trying to manage them on her own. I mean yes buying alcohol and taking a road trip after being in trouble for wrecking your dad's car sounds crazy. I can't say I wouldn't do something that dumb at that age. Of course I may be way off, I just haven't seen many people defending her. We are so quick to judge aren't we? Because of her situation we have been forced to examine her worst choices, I’m sure there are just as many good choices as there are bad.



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It’s so true. Even the ones that make the right choices struggle. There’s a girl in my hometown right now being charged as accessory to murder. She was an honor society student, 3.8 gpa, and currently was working as a mentor at an elementary school. In her situation everyone would say she made all the right choices up until that murder. What makes one of these worthy of sympathy and the other not? How many bad choices makes you unworthy of common decency? How many bad choices does it take to make your family stop caring about you? Everyone makes a bad choice in life that doesn’t mean we should be judged for the biggest mistakes?

 

[MzOpinion8d]

While I understand your view point I respectfully disagree. Finding a missing person that has been gone this long means more than likely she is dead. Why would the dead care if they are found or not? Finding a missing person is more for the family. Her parents didn’t make the choices and they deserve to find their child.


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I do understand that her family wants her found, of course, and I don't begrudge them that. I was just saying that I personally don't have the curiosity that I normally have in missing persons cases.

 

[MzOpinion8d]

Every missing person deserves to be found no matter what. I will take up for Maura on this.
I think, although should not be continued to be talked about, her choices and actions have been misunderstood.

You must not know any college kids/ young adults. I know several and they chronically make poor choices and have legal and social problems, and these are good kids from good families. I also think they will grow up to be successful but the college environment is hard for some kids. It's too easy to "party" and forget your responsibilities. Sometimes just turns into a downward spiral....but can be controlled.

Of course I know some kids thrive in that environment but it's not unusual to see many struggle.

I know that most adults age 21 have matured their executive functioning skills, but not all. That is still a young age to be making adult decisions, many continue to be very impulsive. I don't see it as her running from her problems, I see it as her trying to manage them on her own. I mean yes buying alcohol and taking a road trip after being in trouble for wrecking your dad's car sounds crazy. I can't say I wouldn't do something that dumb at that age. Of course I may be way off, I just haven't seen many people defending her. We are so quick to judge aren't we?



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I know plenty of young adults...lots in my family at the moment. I've also worked as a corrections nurse for a long time.

I guess what I was trying to say is that despite, or perhaps because of, all the podcasts, books, blogs, and now TV shows about the case, I just don't have the interest in it that others seem to have.

I didn't mean for it to come across that I thought she didn't deserve to be found, or that her family shouldn't care what happened. Or even that she deserved what happened, whatever it was!

As always, we all bring our own experiences and thoughts into cases, and I *am* glad that there is interest in the case.

 

[tamaraecclestone]

This is awful of me to say, but I don’t even have the least bit of curiosity about what happened to her. She was a poster child for Bad Choices. Her instinct was to run from problems rather than face them. I think in the end she made one last Bad Choice and that’s that.

I can definitely grasp your POV and at times felt that feeling sorry for someone who made one bad choice after another, leaves one feeling less sympathy or dare I say sad about the outcome; yet that is far from what I think most people feel or think. What I try and remember is this was a very young person who was at the beginning of her adult years, dealing with whatever circumstances she had at the time. It may have been the last straw that set this all into motion, so to speak. I'm sure many would disagree and say she had been making rash and poor decisions for several years and this time, it finally caught up to her. How many times can one make bad choices with little to no consequence? As every action has a reaction, good and bad. My feeling is extreme sadness for her family and friends, the pain they are left with, and of course for Maura. We are all battling something in life, some more than others and no one leaves earth unscathed. I hope that closure comes upon this case, and wish there was something that could have been done to prevent us even speaking about Maura. Apology for the rambling thoughts, and certainly hope I was not offensive in my comment.

 

[TTF14]

I know nothing about the Maura Murray case and just started the Oxygen series on it. Looking forward to reading here after I watch the series!

 

[TTF14]

I know nothing about the Maura Murray case and just started the Oxygen series on it. Looking forward to reading here after I watch the series!

OK, I've finished watching it. I have some questions and would be grateful if someone could answer them for me before I give my theory. It's possible I missed some of this in the docuseries, and if I did, I'm sorry!

1. What was left behind in her car? Is there an inventory anywhere?

2. Has Fred ever said why it took him 5.5 years to talk to police?

3. Have the empty bottles in her car (i.e. the "vodka wine coolers") been DNA tested to see if anyone else was in the car?

4. Where, in relation to where the dog lost the scent, did Atwood stop and ask if she needed help? Where is his house in relation to where the dog lost the scent? Was he actually driving his bus at this time? Was his wife home? (Does he have a wife?)

5. Has nobody from the dorm party talked?? Kate??

6. Has "Witness A's" timeline been debunked at all?

 

[MzOpinion8d]

OK, I've finished watching it. I have some questions and would be grateful if someone could answer them for me before I give my theory. It's possible I missed some of this in the docuseries, and if I did, I'm sorry!

1. What was left behind in her car? Is there an inventory anywhere?

2. Has Fred ever said why it took him 5.5 years to talk to police?

3. Have the empty bottles in her car (i.e. the "vodka wine coolers") been DNA tested to see if anyone else was in the car?

4. Where, in relation to where the dog lost the scent, did Atwood stop and ask if she needed help? Where is his house in relation to where the dog lost the scent? Was he actually driving his bus at this time? Was his wife home? (Does he have a wife?)

5. Has nobody from the dorm party talked?? Kate??

6. Has "Witness A's" timeline been debunked at all?

There is a podcast called Missing Maura Murray that can answer most, if not all, of these questions. They have been investigating the case for quite a while now, attempting to make their own documentary.

 

[ilovewings]

I am always amazed how people look for complicated conspiracies in cases like this when the answer is probably pretty simple: she was a woman who had a car accident ,she was alone, some bad person offered her a lift, she took it and she was murdered. That is my opinion anyway.

 

[TTF14]

I am always amazed how people look for complicated conspiracies in cases like this when the answer is probably pretty simple: she was a woman who had a car accident ,she was alone, some bad person offered her a lift, she took it and she was murdered. That is my opinion anyway.

This is what I think as well, although what throws a wrench into that for me is witness A. She was VERY believable.

However, I do think she was picked up where the dog lost her scent, and I think she was picked up by someone her own age, or more than one. An intoxicated 21 year old girl may have enough sense to not get into a vehicle with an "old man" (Atwood), but if she was feeling desperate enough to not get a DUI, she'd be a LOT more likely to accept a ride from kids her own age. My money is on those three boys who never showed up to work that night since where her wreck was was on their way to work.

 

[CircuitGuy]

I am always amazed how people look for complicated conspiracies in cases like this when the answer is probably pretty simple: she was a woman who had a car accident ,she was alone, some bad person offered her a lift, she took it and she was murdered. That is my opinion anyway.

In this case the rag in the tailpipe has some benign explanation, like she either had car trouble and thought the rag might help or planned to blame the accident on car trouble.

It also means the people who offered her a ride came by in the minutes between when the bus driver talked to her and when the police arrived, and no one saw them. That's all possible, maybe even the most likely explanation. She could very easily think someone older might insist she report the accident to the police that night, while younger people might be willing to just give her a ride.

 

[CircuitGuy]

I wonder if Maura Murray was alcoholic.

“Hardcore” Alcoholism
There one definition/type of alcoholism for people who party too hard and too much. There are also “hardcore” alcoholics who are physically dependent on it. They are compelled to drink until they're wasted, and they don't necessarily enjoy it. They need it like a thirsty person needs water. Such people start the day a little shaky and irritable, take a drink to calm down, and carry on drinking all day whenever they have chance. They often feel horrible about sneaking booze everywhere, but they don't know how to stop. You might catch them nervous and jonesing for a drink, at an apparent “sweet spot” where they have enough alcohol to be functional, acting drunk, or totally wasted. They often end the day wasted.

I have known a small handful of people with this problem. It's different from someone who likes to drink too much, sneaks booze as a joke or for fun. There's no fun in the habit with these people. Even at the sweet spot or a little drunk, they still feel the jones for more until they're really wasted.

Such people may have started drinking to escape problems or for fun, but it has evolved beyond the reason they started.

What it could mean for Maura?

• It could explain much of her behavior:
• Car accident when she disappeared
• The quantity of alcohol she bought and her taking some of it with her when she left the scene of the accident
• Any bad decisions she may have made immediately after the accident
• The accident in her father's car days before
• If she was involved in the hit-and-run the week before, it could be she was drunk at the time.
• Stealing a credit card number for someone in her dorm and the shoplifting – These are not peculiar to alcoholism, but they sometimes come with it.

In this scenario, everything else is unrelated to her disappearance.
People with this type of alcoholism can seem fine but be legally too drunk to drive.

Maybe she was upset about something else in her life, maybe whatever caused to start drinking or to steal, and she was going to take a few days' break in a cabin to get away from it all. That would explain why she told her teacher and work she wouldn't be out.

Maybe she never unpacked the stuff the appeared packed up in her dorm room. Her father could have taken out cash to buy a car, as he says, so he could put it on the table and show he's making a serious offer.

The party she went to could have been some students drinking in a dorm room with Maura getting wasted. The hotel manager at her father's hotel could have let her in, and she called her boyfriend to tell him she crashed his car, all while her father was half asleep and didn't know anything was wrong.

It certainly explains why she had alcohol in a pop can. Alcoholics have tricks to carry it everywhere. In this scenario, putting alcohol in a soda can/bottle is something she did on a regular basis.

It's easy to imagine her crashing the car while drunk, getting in a car with some random “dirtbag” to get a ride and avoid contact with the police, and the “dirtbag” realizing she's drunk and they can get away with murdering her.

Conclusion: I have no idea what happened to her, but I'm wondering if all the odd things that happened prior to her disappearance were just related to a troubled person with a drinking problem and unrelated to her disappearance.

This scenario is not to disparage Maura. People see alcoholism as partly a moral failing (maybe sometimes it is; I don't know.), which could be why her father doesn't want to dig into the details of her life before she disappeared. Alcoholism kills many people, but there aren't regular fundraiser run events to fight it the way we have for cancer and heart disease. I have had relatives die of it, and I wouldn't really like to see the ends of their lives investigated with the public learning exactly how much they consumed and all the things they did under the influence.