check this out, i was trying to find out for you at looked what popped upPonderingThings said:
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=439438
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NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - # 3
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http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=439438
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PonderingThings
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Petra awesome find!
Ok it was probably bright out, cold but not bone chilling. It is possible that the contracter could see her, and identify her.
PonderingThings
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I'm actually not going anywhere Petra... I've just been in New Hampshire, in the dark, in the winter.
I've been a young woman in a car that was disabled on the side of a lonely road.
I've made some of the decisions Maura had to have made.
I find it laughable that anyone would think she would try to kill herself with Tylenol and alchol. I'm not even a nursing student and I know how painful that would be, I also know how long it would take, and the likelihood of completing it before rescue... there are street drugs, available on every campus, that would do the job quicker and easier.
Run away? Maybe... but more likely run TO someone... except its been 2 years so if that's what she was doing she never got there.
As for her parents... I admire their persistence. I understand that LE can't reveal everything but these are her PARENTS and they should know a little more about the investigation than the public does! IMO
Anyway that's just how I'm looking at the details....
I've been a young woman in a car that was disabled on the side of a lonely road.
I've made some of the decisions Maura had to have made.
I find it laughable that anyone would think she would try to kill herself with Tylenol and alchol. I'm not even a nursing student and I know how painful that would be, I also know how long it would take, and the likelihood of completing it before rescue... there are street drugs, available on every campus, that would do the job quicker and easier.
Run away? Maybe... but more likely run TO someone... except its been 2 years so if that's what she was doing she never got there.
As for her parents... I admire their persistence. I understand that LE can't reveal everything but these are her PARENTS and they should know a little more about the investigation than the public does! IMO
Anyway that's just how I'm looking at the details....
PonderingThings
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I'm sure the contractor has been interviewed many times. Now that we know it was almost a full moon, clear, with snow to reflect the light, I can believe he could see her clearly.
i was thinking of the report of no footprints..knowing snow (norway, as you know)..in those temps,icy and hard snow...usually easy to walk,jock quick without leaving footprints..esp since she was agile and only 125 ibs.PonderingThings said:
PonderingThings
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Yes and considering that Maura was a runner, in good shape, she probably wouldn't think twice about setting out on a trek.
It bothers me that the bus driver didn't see her walking on the road - he said he could see the road, and the cars, so wouldn't he see her?
She could have slipped by... or went the other way?
What if she "bumped into" the tow truck driver and he was a "bad guy"? Without a lead there is nothing but "what ifs"
I'm also surprised that the cars that went by, according to the bus driver, didn't come forward and report they saw her. Although the cars could be from anywhere, going to anyplace, they are likely to have been within the surrounding area... you'd think ONE of them would remember seeing Maura on the road? Especially with all the publicity? That one boggles me.
It bothers me that the bus driver didn't see her walking on the road - he said he could see the road, and the cars, so wouldn't he see her?
She could have slipped by... or went the other way?
What if she "bumped into" the tow truck driver and he was a "bad guy"? Without a lead there is nothing but "what ifs"
I'm also surprised that the cars that went by, according to the bus driver, didn't come forward and report they saw her. Although the cars could be from anywhere, going to anyplace, they are likely to have been within the surrounding area... you'd think ONE of them would remember seeing Maura on the road? Especially with all the publicity? That one boggles me.
KatherineQ
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PonderingThings said:
That really boggles me, too, that more people didn't see her. At night, a young woman walking alone down a lonely very cold stretch of highway would have been memorable. Very memorable. The fact that no one except ONE guy claims to have seen her makes it very suspect that she walked any real distance along that highway, certainly not the miles to get to the next town.
I'm still not convinced he could see her clearly. I've traveled this road at night and even with the bright moon, it is extremely dark. Don't forget, this is a heavily wooded, mountainous area.PonderingThings said:
we have been through this on the Maura site.
While some don't believe it, Anne who lives nearby in Vermont has confirmed on the Maura site that the temperatures warmed up in N Country on 2/9/04 and I checked wunderground finding the same pattern in all the area towns.
The Google link is inadequate--sorry Google isn't right about everything any more than Wikipedia is.
The wunderground.com site provided by SearcherMe on the Maura site on, I believe, 12-18-05 (you can look it up) shows that it was really cold on 2/8 in the area, still cold on the morning of 2/9 but warmed up twenty degress in the afternoon. By the time the family got there on Wednesday it was brutally cold again with huge wind chill, and Sharon (Lt now Cpt Rausch's Mother) wrote in her notes that it was 12 degrees.
Anne says a light snow had fallen and that it was clear. i think the big issue at road level is that with snowbanks piled up against the dark forest background you can see the road pretty well on foot.
The contractor sighting describes Maura as avoiding his car and ducking down a side road, hurrying at a fast clip--near the 112 and 116 merge and split four to five miles east of the Swiftwater crash scene.
Both Mr. Murray and Lt Scarinza initially believed and accepted his story (see the news articles in May 2004 and Fred's letter to NH Governor Benson posted on the Maura site).
Obviously there is suspicion of the contractor's story now, but it is two years later and he still hasn't been charged with anything if he is a suspect.
While some don't believe it, Anne who lives nearby in Vermont has confirmed on the Maura site that the temperatures warmed up in N Country on 2/9/04 and I checked wunderground finding the same pattern in all the area towns.
The Google link is inadequate--sorry Google isn't right about everything any more than Wikipedia is.
The wunderground.com site provided by SearcherMe on the Maura site on, I believe, 12-18-05 (you can look it up) shows that it was really cold on 2/8 in the area, still cold on the morning of 2/9 but warmed up twenty degress in the afternoon. By the time the family got there on Wednesday it was brutally cold again with huge wind chill, and Sharon (Lt now Cpt Rausch's Mother) wrote in her notes that it was 12 degrees.
Anne says a light snow had fallen and that it was clear. i think the big issue at road level is that with snowbanks piled up against the dark forest background you can see the road pretty well on foot.
The contractor sighting describes Maura as avoiding his car and ducking down a side road, hurrying at a fast clip--near the 112 and 116 merge and split four to five miles east of the Swiftwater crash scene.
Both Mr. Murray and Lt Scarinza initially believed and accepted his story (see the news articles in May 2004 and Fred's letter to NH Governor Benson posted on the Maura site).
Obviously there is suspicion of the contractor's story now, but it is two years later and he still hasn't been charged with anything if he is a suspect.
For starters: You usually require evidence of a crime has been committed before an criminal complaint can be laid. You can't just "assume" that a crime has been committed, or "think" or "feel" a crime has been committed, you have to know from the evidence.
There has been convictions without a body, but with a lot of "circumstantial" and forensic evidence.
So before someone like a "contractor or bus driver can be charged with anything, you need evidence of a crime being committed and evidence to prosecuate with.
So, since no crime has been committed, I find it "odd" that some people want others to be charged with a crime. Or that LE has any "evidence" that a crime has occurred and what evidence that supports a "charge" and meets the "charging" provisions.
Usually when LE charges someone with a crime, they have a " all of their ducks" in a row and most likely have "consulted" with the "State" as to the veractiy of the evidence.
So until there is a crime, or evidence of a crime, and evidence against person or persons unknown, it sitll is a missing person case.
As it should be.........
May I remind people, that with the "Runaway" Bride, her picture was all over the place and there was not even one sighting of her.
I do think that Maura made it to the other town I think it is called Lincoln.
Not a hard trek for a runner.....not at all.
I am sure there is a bus station there in addition to a phone......so Maura could take the bus and/or use the phone to have some one pick her up.
BTW, if Maura was such a neat person, I cannot under stand why, if someone is as neat as her that they would not have time during two weeks to put away clohtes People who are neat want things in order....not all over the place for the sake of a bit of work.
She did party the Saturday before she left, so if she had time to party and socialize, she had plenty of time to put away a few boxes and clothes in a small dorm room. It is not like she moved a house and it would take a week or two to put away "all of the rooms" in the house.
College students take what they need, so it would not be that much.
There has been convictions without a body, but with a lot of "circumstantial" and forensic evidence.
So before someone like a "contractor or bus driver can be charged with anything, you need evidence of a crime being committed and evidence to prosecuate with.
So, since no crime has been committed, I find it "odd" that some people want others to be charged with a crime. Or that LE has any "evidence" that a crime has occurred and what evidence that supports a "charge" and meets the "charging" provisions.
Usually when LE charges someone with a crime, they have a " all of their ducks" in a row and most likely have "consulted" with the "State" as to the veractiy of the evidence.
So until there is a crime, or evidence of a crime, and evidence against person or persons unknown, it sitll is a missing person case.
As it should be.........
May I remind people, that with the "Runaway" Bride, her picture was all over the place and there was not even one sighting of her.
I do think that Maura made it to the other town I think it is called Lincoln.
Not a hard trek for a runner.....not at all.
I am sure there is a bus station there in addition to a phone......so Maura could take the bus and/or use the phone to have some one pick her up.
BTW, if Maura was such a neat person, I cannot under stand why, if someone is as neat as her that they would not have time during two weeks to put away clohtes People who are neat want things in order....not all over the place for the sake of a bit of work.
She did party the Saturday before she left, so if she had time to party and socialize, she had plenty of time to put away a few boxes and clothes in a small dorm room. It is not like she moved a house and it would take a week or two to put away "all of the rooms" in the house.
College students take what they need, so it would not be that much.
If you read the Case Info section on the Maura website you realize the onus of this failure has to lie first on officer Cecil Smith who showed up at scene at 7.46pm, found the empty car, went to Atwood's and knocked on the bus door where Atwood says he was completing paperwork.
Atwood told him that a young girl had been in the car, and they both according to Atwood drove around the local roads mostly back west toward Haverhill looking for her.
So Smith at least knew from Atwood that a girl was missing, even though the car was registered to Fred Murray.
He evidently didn't do anything about it the next day, Feb 10th, until later in the day someone from Haverhill PD called Fred Murray in Weymouth and got Fred Jr. the first family member to learn of Maura being missing--not until after 4pm the following day nearly twenty four hours later.
Cecil Smith initially denied knowing or did not acknowledge to the family that he knew Maura had been driving the car, towed to a local garage, LaVoie's.
There is currently some puzzlement on the Maura site about another report heard on scanner radio closer to 7pm that evening (back to 2/9) which was heard both by a local person/poster using the screen name Anne & her husband, which said the driver left the accident scene on 112 in a "private vehicle." No one is sure when this happened or if Cecil Smith had heard it and justified not doing any full scale search on 2/10 because of it.
Atwood told him that a young girl had been in the car, and they both according to Atwood drove around the local roads mostly back west toward Haverhill looking for her.
So Smith at least knew from Atwood that a girl was missing, even though the car was registered to Fred Murray.
He evidently didn't do anything about it the next day, Feb 10th, until later in the day someone from Haverhill PD called Fred Murray in Weymouth and got Fred Jr. the first family member to learn of Maura being missing--not until after 4pm the following day nearly twenty four hours later.
Cecil Smith initially denied knowing or did not acknowledge to the family that he knew Maura had been driving the car, towed to a local garage, LaVoie's.
There is currently some puzzlement on the Maura site about another report heard on scanner radio closer to 7pm that evening (back to 2/9) which was heard both by a local person/poster using the screen name Anne & her husband, which said the driver left the accident scene on 112 in a "private vehicle." No one is sure when this happened or if Cecil Smith had heard it and justified not doing any full scale search on 2/10 because of it.
PonderingThings
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I was surprised that others didn't call in to say they saw Maura... now I suspect I know why they didn't.
PonderingThings,PonderingThings said:
I suspect <no pun intended> that there is some confusion regarding your statement. I have never read that anyone, be it family, friend, or poster WANTS any WITNESS CHARGED.
I am quite certain that what they WANT is INVESTIGATION, and in line with your screen name, they have 'pondered' why it isn't so.
Please feel free to direct me to any post that shows me to be mistaken.
KatherineQ
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Hydemi - I've pondered one of your points a lot - about the police being unaware that the car was being driven by a "young girl" until much later.
Words are so tricky!! ;D
Is it possible that the cop knew the car was being driven by a young woman, (who is in fact the age to graduate from college, and is tall), but it was the "young girl" terminology that is the sticking point and caused his initial reaction of surprise?
I would be surprised to hear she was a young girl, too, and would probably react that way. What?? It was driven by a young girl? We were looking for a woman in her early 20's - something like that?
Sometimes when you look so closely at each conversation they seem to take on a different meaning than intended.
Or not, just a thought.
Words are so tricky!! ;D
Is it possible that the cop knew the car was being driven by a young woman, (who is in fact the age to graduate from college, and is tall), but it was the "young girl" terminology that is the sticking point and caused his initial reaction of surprise?
I would be surprised to hear she was a young girl, too, and would probably react that way. What?? It was driven by a young girl? We were looking for a woman in her early 20's - something like that?
Sometimes when you look so closely at each conversation they seem to take on a different meaning than intended.
Or not, just a thought.
czechmate7
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PonderingThings... I think I understand what your saying...can you imagine if someone came forward and said they helped Maura get away? Look at the SBD...some people have posted their suspicions about him because he was "the last person to see Maura". Nowdays they can charge a person with murder w/o a body....being a witness can have very serious conseqences!PonderingThings said:
Although SBD accounts in the media are not consistent - do not know IF this is due to the media accounts or the reports from the SBD - ONE CONSISTENT ITEM that he reported to police, media and family is the driver was "a young girl about 20 years old"KatherineQ said:
Therefore, there should have been no confusion as to the gender and age of Maura Murray.
According to Sharon's post on www.mauramurray.com, she spoke extensively with Sgt Smith on 2/10 (24 hours after he found the abandoned car). He told her that he assumed the car was driven by Fred Murray because it was registered to him (as determined when he ran the plates); that he also assumed that Fred Murray had left the area in another vehicle because the area is a tourist/sking resort and often when autos break down or slide off of the road, the driver leaves with another party traveling in the same group. She states that she questioned him extensively and that he made no mention of knowing a female was the driver (note: according to SBD, he did know the driver was Maura). She also reports that he told her there was only one set of footprints leading from the driver's side of the car, confirming the driver was alone.
That Fred Murray was the driver and alone may indeed have been Sgt Smith's initial/original assumption/deduction. However, according to Sharon, he also told her that he went to SBD's home and inquired about the driver; that he and SBD drove around looking for the driver and because they found no one, that confirmed his assumption that the driver had left in another car traveling in a group. Therefore, based on SBD's reports, it is only logical to assume that by the time they were doing their drives up and down the road, he knew to look for a "young" female, not 61 year old Fred Murray.
Because the SBD has repeatedly said he knew the driver was "a young girl about 20 years old" and alone, then Sgt Smith, while perhaps not lying to Sharon on 2/10, certainly was not forthcoming, even if it was only because he knew that he and his department had made an error in judgement in not looking for Maura and putting a BOL for her immmediately.
Therein lies MY CRITICISM: we are all subject to mistakes and errors. But to intentionally continue errors (by not investigating) for weeks, months, and now years is inexcusable. Why not admit to the first mistake and do what is necessary to admit/correct the beginning unintentional error?
It is my opinion that Sgt Smith did not intentionally intend to be a party to Maura's missing, but the decision(s) of his police department have played a huge role in the inept/negligent investigation .
Websleuthers, what do you think?
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